Gay Marriage

[luutzu]

I haven't watched it but you can bet that the PC brigade won't put up anything that harms their cause.

And at the age those kids are, they wouldn't know any different anyway.

There's a girl in there that said it's a bit weird, others are fine with it... Sure these kids might be teased at school... and maybe need to confront questions of sexuality earlier than other kids. So it might make them stronger, more tolerant kids.. might turn some completely the other way. Just like kids from any marriages or parents - some rich and privileged kids "betray" their class and want to help the poor; some poor kids who made it rich put their noses up those who didn't "make it".

 

[bellenuit]

 

[noco]

Gay marriage is a contentious point between Shorten and his deputy Tania Plebersek...It will be interesting to see who wins this battle.

 

[Tisme]

Gay marriage is a contentious point between Shorten and his deputy Tania Plebersek...It will be interesting to see who wins this battle.

Like the Liberal Party has betrayed its foundation roots because of Roman Catholic dominance, so will the Labor Party under the influence of the Pleberseks, whose cultural roots are far from the Anglo Scottish founders' who pursued labour reform and worker welfare .

 

[noco]

Like the Liberal Party has betrayed its foundation roots because of Roman Catholic dominance, so will the Labor Party under the influence of the Pleberseks, whose cultural roots are far from the Anglo Scottish founders' who pursued labour reform and worker welfare .

To the best of my knowledge the Liberal National Party believe in a conscience vote...The Green/Labor Party are all over the shop and cannot agree amongst themselves....You have Tania Plebersek saying one thing while her leader is out of the country and when Shorten returns he disagrees with her.

If Plebersek wins by insisting there is a block in the Labor Party and if one or more Labor MP's cross the floor, will they be expelled for pushing their own barrow?...Also if she gets her way, won't that weaken Bill Shorten's hold on power?..Under the circumstances what would happen if Bill Shorten crossed the floor in what he believes in or will he back down like a wimp?

Who in the Liberal Party are Roman Catholics...Can you name them?

 

[explod]

Who in the Liberal Party are Roman Catholics...Can you name them?

Mr Abbot the rabbit.

 

[orr]

Gay marriage is a contentious point between Shorten and his deputy Tania Plebersek...It will be interesting to see who wins this battle.

Contentious in the sense that if the numbers dictate on Shortens side he'll feel pressured, where as Plebesek has her own moral compass.
Contention is what is obvious between the Bernardi Andrews block of the Liberal party, who's preference would be to stone to death the proposed nuptial partners and others still not stuck in the dark ages(be it the few) .

 

[bellenuit]

I found this post on FB in relation to Ireland's upcoming referendum. I think it deserves reposting here.....



Joey Teehan
Why I am voting “Yes” on May 22nd
This photograph was taken 7-years ago at a party in a friends bowling alley. It is the first picture taken of Myself & Donal. I was 23 and he was 24. We were dating for a month at the time. I didn’t know at that stage how close we would get but I thought he was the most handsome man I had ever seen in my life. We had everything in common (except Masterchef. It’s terrible). He is the most important person in my life. For those who don’t know him, Donal is a dentist from Castleknock. He is the most intelligent and the funniest person that i know.

I wasn’t always as happy as I am today with Donal. Growing up gay in Kilkenny was really hard, especially in the school system. You have no support. You are completely alone. In the halls in Kieran’s College, “Bender, Fag, Queer, Puff“ were part of normal student conversation. I spent most of my teen years living in constant fear of being abandoned by my family or my friends. This made me very suicidal. You grow up knowing you are the worst thing in the world you could possibly be. This has huge mental health effects on gay teens and who are: five times more likely to be medicated for depression; two and a half times more likely to self harm; and at least three times more likely to attempt suicide.

I’m a tough person. I can handle most of the crap that comes with being gay. When it comes to marrying Donal though I draw the line. I will not let opponents of same-sex marriage get away with spreading lies and fear about something so important to us. Gay people have all been through enough and frankly we are tired. I have decided to address issues that some people may have with gay couples.

The first argument against same-sex marriage is that of same-sex parenting. This issue has absolutely nothing to do with the vote in May, despite what posters might try to suggest. The subject has already been addressed by the introduction of the Children And Families Right’s Bill. But I am not afraid to discuss it.

“Think of The Children”
Not being able to have children is really hard. Especially when we would make such great parents. One after the other we watch our friends have children. And we are very happy for them. They have amazing kids and we are so lucky to be part of their lives. When someone tells you they're expecting a child, I get excited for them. But there’s an ache in your heart because you can never do the same. And it seems so easy. Sometimes they don’t even have to try. : ) Being alone with Donal the rest of my life does not scare me. But it is not what is in our hearts. We worry about what might happen as we get older. I never wanted to be surrounded by material things. I wanted to be surrounded by a family; my family. We worry about being left behind as our friends move on with their lives. Do we sound like a same-sex couple? Or just a couple who can’t have children?

Just because same-sex parenting is unfamiliar, it does not make it wrong. A total of 71 studies have shown that same-sex couples are just as good at raising children as opposite-sex couples. There are 4 studies against same-sex parenting. Unfortunately we cannot make everyone in the country read these studies. After removing the discredited research the remainder prove that what a child needs is a stable, safe, loving family environment. A good parent fulfills the needs of their child, regardless of sex or sexual orientation. The sex or sexual orientation of parents has zero effect on the upbringing of that child.

So convincing is the argument for same-sex parenting that the Adoption Authority of Ireland, The Ombudsman for Children, Children’s Rights Alliance, Barnardos, ISPCC, and the Society of Social Workers all strongly support same-sex adoption and marriage. And those are all organisations that have read their research. When a child is being adopted the needs of the child must always come first. Choosing the best parents to fulfill the needs of that child is what’s important. Not the sexual orientation of the parents.

Any couple that make it through the adoption process deserve to be parents. And any gay couple that are lucky enough to be allowed to adopt would love that child more than anything else in the world. Gay couples have to make a real effort to become parents. It does not just happen. There are no accidents. They have to really want children, like any other adopting couple.

But studies will probably not convince the public about same-sex parenting because it is unfamiliar. And what is unfamiliar can be scary. And this makes it very easy for opponents to spread fear about such an important issue. It will take stories from children of same-sex parents and visibility of same-sex families to change this.

“Marriage is for Procreation”
The second argument against same-sex marriage is that “Marriage is for procreation.” Should we screen-test couples to see if they can procreate before they get married? Should we ban older people from getting married or remarried after a partner dies? Marriage is not just about having children, it’s about who you want to spend the rest of your life with. Having children is a huge bonus for those who are lucky enough to have that privilege, but that is not the reason why we enter into marriage. Marriage is about companionship. Having that person beside you “till death do you part, through thick and thin, in sickness and in health.” All the time. They are your family. When you end up in the emergency room, terrified something really bad has happened to you, it’s Donal I want there. Not anyone else. That’s what marriage is about.

“Allowing Gay People To Marry will Redefine Marriage”
Cynthia Nixon put it best. “Gay people who want to marry have no desire to redefine marriage in any way. When women got the right to vote, they did not redefine voting. When the African-Americans got the right to sit at a lunch counter, alongside white people, they did not redefine eating out. They were simply invited to the table”.

“It’s ok to Treat Different Situations Differently”
So why is it that we treat gay couples so differently? Is it because they cannot procreate? Lots of people cannot have children. Is it because they are unable to raise a loving family? Is it because it will redefine marriage? Or is it because of the deep rooted fear of gay people that has been built into our religions and culture?

Growing up I wondered how black people in America were treated so poorly. How did some white people not have empathy for people with a different skin colour? How did they treat them that way. Why did they do those things to them? Why did they have no rights? Why was slavery accepted? The truth is that people genuinely thought that black people were less than everyone else, or worse; that they wanted to believe that black people were less. Only looking back do we really know how wrong that was. We will look back at the gay rights movement in exactly the same way. But the difference is that we do not have a different skin colour sitting at the back of the bus, but a different sexuality, and this is happening right now. Today. And you have the opportunity to change it.

“They Already Have Civil Partnerships, Why Do They Want Marriage?”
I have one question. Would you swap your marriage for a civil partnership?

On October 22nd Donal and I will be signing into a civil partnership. I will have very mixed feelings that day signing that piece of paper. I did not get excited when civil partnerships came in. There was no celebration. It’s a piece of paper that says that we are less than everybody else. 166 ways we are treated differently for no good reason. None. No-one dreams of having a civil partnership. It’s a separate drinking fountain. On that day, I hope to know that we will be among the last couples that will ever have to sign it. It will be a closed chapter in Ireland’s history, and we will look back and wonder why Ireland was so backwards then.

The Reality
Gay people are only 4% of the population. We really are a minority. It is straight people that will be deciding if we get to enter into marriage or not. And those straight people will never fully understand what it is like to be a gay person, but I hope this letter helps you to understand a little.

Voting ‘Yes’ on May 22nd will make Ireland a better place. It will send a message to the gay people of Ireland that they are valued. It will make it a more inclusive place for couples like Donal and me. It will give kids in schools hope for the future. It will mean your children won’t be treated differently because of their genes. It will slowly aid in ending the fear and homophobia experienced on the streets. It would mean the world to be able to get married to the man I love and finally be treated the way that we deserve to be treated in this country.

If you have any questions please do not be afraid to send me a private message.

Joey.

 

[Tink]

Bellenuit, with the referendum in Ireland, the Yes and the No would both be putting their views across on the word - Marriage.

Good on them for taking it to a referendum.

I still want to know why they feel they have to force this sexual lifestyle on the children through schools, and how marriage is taught.
There are plenty in society that pay taxes and can't get married, as I mentioned in another post.
If they think ONLY religious people are against the word marriage being changed, they are mistaken.

I hope the NO voters stick to their values and truth, and don't get threatened and bullied as I have seen here.
That has happened and is still happening in Europe, when people express a different view, even when they are gay.
Boycotts etc.
The gays are argueing between themselves on whether marriage should be changed, and/or whether they should be allowed surrogacy.
The gays should be allowed to express that view if they are against.

Freedom of speech is a right for all, not just some.

Rather than trying to force people to agree with Gay Marriage, they should be convincing the public why its better for society than what has been in place for many years.

 

[Value Collector]

I still want to know why they feel they have to force this sexual lifestyle on the children through schools, and how marriage is taught.

.

Who is forcing "this sexual lifestyle" in schools?

There are plenty in society that pay taxes and can't get married.

Such as?

Rather than trying to force people to agree with Gay Marriage, they should be convincing the public why its better for society than what has been in place for many years

No one is trying to force people to agree, they are trying to get equal rights, you don't have to agree with it. I don't agree with smoking, but it's not up to me to ban it.

You can disagree with inter racial marriage till your heart is content, but you have no right to stop it.



"Homosexuality is not just a form of sex, its a form of love, and deserves our respect for that reason"
Christopher Hitchens

 

[Atari rose]

I'm against this Gay marriage not because of two people getting together but we must remain extremely clear with regards to the law.

I have been nfloowing the American stories of gay people not being allowed to stay in people guest houses etc or I think the most recent was refusing to bake a gay couple a cake on the grounds of religion.

Now not being religious or gay I can stand back and take the sides
There needs to be protection for people who don't believe or appreciate the lifestyle choices of others. The US has gone about this the wrong way but hopefully should get there sooner or latter.

There needs to be extremely clear laws regarding children.

There needs to be laws on breakups.

Until I see some sort of framework regarding the laws involved and how they change compared to other people then the feel good PC brigade can go to hell.

 

[Value Collector]

There needs to be protection for people who don't believe or appreciate the lifestyle choices of others. The US has gone about this the wrong way but hopefully should get there sooner or latter.
.

what do you mean by this?

Are you saying people should have the right to discriminate?

If you are running a business that provides a service to the public, the law should not allow you to refuse service to a customer based on their race, gender, sexuality etc. any situation in which you think it would be ok to deny service to a gay man or woman, try thinking would you deny the service to a person based on race, if you know it would be racist to deny the same service based on race, then you should understand it's wrong to deny it based on sexuality.

In the bakery situation, if the lady sells wedding cakes, she would be within her rights to say "we don't stock any gay wedding cake statues/ toppers, you'll have to provide that yourself. but if a gay couple walks in and picks a cake from the range she ordinarily supplies, then she should serve them, their sexuality is irrelevant.

There needs to be laws on breakups

.

Recognising gay marriage would actually provide a lot of clarity in this area.

 

[SirRumpole]

If you are running a business that provides a service to the public, the law should not allow you to refuse service to a customer based on their race, gender, sexuality etc. any situation in which you think it would be ok to deny service to a gay man or woman, try thinking would you deny the service to a person based on race, if you know it would be racist to deny the same service based on race, then you should understand it's wrong to deny it based on sexuality.

Yes, you and I may think this is wrong to discriminate on any basis, however if we believe in freedom of religion (and you have said many times that you do), don't businesses have the right to deny service to people they disapprove of on religious grounds ?

After all, there are most likely a lot of other places that people could go to get the services, and personally I would not want to deal with a business who looked down on me for some reason beyond my control.

 

[Tisme]

Who in the Liberal Party are Roman Catholics...Can you name them?

Yep. The real question is who isn't = Julie Bishop.

You can start with the obvious and work down simply by using your keyboard

e.g. Abbott, Joyce, etc

I think Menzies (the actual true Liberal Party) had only one team Catholic in the lower house.

Of course the Catholic takeover of the Labs was completed around the late 80'S.

Good reading is to compare the party planks and policies of fifty years ago to now. Clearly both parties are ghosts of their original agendas.

 

[Tisme]

I have been nfloowing the American stories of gay people not being allowed to stay in people guest houses etc or I think the most recent was refusing to bake a gay couple a cake on the grounds of religion.



Until I see some sort of framework regarding the laws involved and how they change compared to other people then the feel good PC brigade can go to hell.

Yes well I think Daniel explained in his own unique way why people like me disinfect everything in a hotel room when travelling. Putting human faeces over everything including door knobs and remotes because of some fetish to insert things in clacker valves ain't my idea of garnering equality.

This is from Daniel's TV show as seen on Fox


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0hlZqkhQCI

 

[Value Collector]

Yes, you and I may think this is wrong to discriminate on any basis, however if we believe in freedom of religion (and you have said many times that you do), don't businesses have the right to deny service to people they disapprove of on religious grounds ?

After all, there are most likely a lot of other places that people could go to get the services, and personally I would not want to deal with a business who looked down on me for some reason beyond my control.

No, freedom of religion does not give the right to discriminate if you are running a business that is open to the general public, if you wish to pick and choose your clientele in a discriminating manner, simply be upfront about it, and run your business as a club that requires membership.

it's funny that they pick to discriminate against gay marriages though, but are fine serving people who are divorced or whereing mixed fabrics since both of these are banned too.

In a lot of places you simply can't go to another business, imagine a gay person trying to live in a smallish country town, if people were aloud to refuse him service based on the sexuality he was born with, he might not be able to buy petrol or food.

 

[Value Collector]

Yes well I think Daniel explained in his own unique way why people like me disinfect everything in a hotel room when travelling. Putting human faeces over everything including door knobs and remotes because of some fetish to insert things in clacker valves ain't my idea of garnering equality.

This is from Daniel's TV show as seen on Fox


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0hlZqkhQCI

What's that got to do with gay marriage?

 

[qldfrog]

No, freedom of religion does not give the right to discriminate if you are running a business that is open to the general public, if you wish to pick and choose your clientele in a discriminating manner, simply be upfront about it, and run your business as a club that requires membership.

on a pure logical point I agree, BUT PC now forbids these restrictions;
See the rage against men only older establishment clubs...
What do you think will happen if you decide to open a white only bar in a city, with nice clear signage?
PC is ruling, you can have a gay or women only association, no a white male.
This is why it is hard to logically have any argument on this subject as well as on many other as PC has just move the imbalance from what was established 100y ago to a new imbalance;
Some are more equal than other: used to be the white alpha man,
now it is a mix of skin colour, sex and sexual (but non all) orientation.
In antique greece, pedophilia was a standard: young males (aka teenage years) were being mentored into adulthood;
Now what do you think would be the reaction to promoting within the state institutions pedophile adoption?

And isn't pedophilia just a sexual orientation after all?

Rage and passion have taken this and many other society debates to a level where logic and common sense can not even be heard.

Apologies VC, as i just realised that twice recently replied and gave opposing views, nothing personal there!
I share some of your views too

 

[qldfrog]

now, back as to why I clicked on that thread:
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/its-about-a-fair-go-alan-joyce-on-samesex-marriage-20150504-1na7am.html
I found it so ironic
Alan Joyce in the same sentence as "A fair go";
In my view: AJ is an overpaid buffon who managed to finish one of our last national icon.
Fair go

 

[Tisme]

now, back as to why I clicked on that thread:
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/its-about-a-fair-go-alan-joyce-on-samesex-marriage-20150504-1na7am.html
I found it so ironic
Alan Joyce in the same sentence as "A fair go";
In my view: AJ is an overpaid buffon who managed to finish one of our last national icon.
Fair go

Yes I wonder if he plays the G card whenever the daggers are drawn.