FMG - Fortescue Ltd

[Mr Flibble]

Yeah I read the article,

oil floats and creates massive slicks that spread across the surface where as Ammonia dilutes into the water, both cause damage and both have pros and cons.

So imagine how much more damage oil would do if it wasn't possible to lay down booms to contain some (most?) of it. This is ammonia.

 

[Value Collector]

So imagine how much more damage oil would do if it wasn't possible to lay down booms to contain some (most?) of it. This is ammonia.

It’s not as big a deal as you are making out, the relatively small amounts of shipping fuel inside ships wouldn’t cause to much damage on the rare occasion they leaked, the ammonia would dilute down to near background levels and then break down naturally.

In the case of a tanker spill, That can be mitigated by using modern compartmentalised carriers.

You also have the added benefit over Oil in that a large amount of oil spills come from actually drilling oil in the ocean, but we won’t be drilling for ammonia in the ocean.

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

So imagine how much more damage oil would do if it wasn't possible to lay down booms to contain some (most?) of it. This is ammonia.

It’s not as big a deal as you are making out, the relatively small amounts of shipping fuel inside ships wouldn’t cause to much damage on the rare occasion they leaked, the ammonia would dilute down to near background levels and then break down naturally.

In the case of a tanker spill, That can be mitigated by using modern compartmentalised carriers.

You also have the added benefit over Oil in that a large amount of oil spills come from actually drilling oil in the ocean, but we won’t be drilling for ammonia in the ocean.

From my knowledge of alcohol people full of the perceived benefits of it don’t worry none too much about spilling it unless there are consequences.

Perhaps close monitoring of ammonia transport may already be in place.

gg

 

[divs4ever]

lationYep, FMG is planning to make a lot of hydrogen in WA, because that is where their Iron Mining and shipping operations are, and they are planning on converting those operations to 100% renewable electricity, battery and hydrogen fuels over the next 10 years or so.

So I imagine once they are producing more hydrogen than they can consume in their operations they will be exporting from WA, so early shipments to Europe could be sourced from WA.

However, the Natural home for WA produced Hydrogen fuel exports would be Asia, that’s even more true for any production that comes out of Gladstone. So as FMG’s African projects come online, obviously fuel for Europe would be shipped from there.

————————
In relation to your other comments,

FMG is actually planning on making Ammonia fuel, which can replace diesel/bunker oil as a fuel for ships so it’s not just straight hydrogen they are looking to exports.

Also, I am not sure if you have noticed but there is an energy crisis in Europe, I am not sure they have large amounts of renewable or nuclear electricity that could be diverted to producing green hydrogen, any extra renewable electricity they produce will be needed to be used as electricity as they wind down fossil fuels over the next 10 years and ween themselves off Russian gas.

nope, there is no 'energy crisis ' in Europe it is the consequence of a string of flawed policy decisions , that included taking existing nuclear reactors off-line prematurely , and the prince/princess syndrome where some expect their desires to be fulfilled instantly , the Russian reaction ( not giving Europe gas for free , while declaring they no longer intended buying Russian energy ) has been very mild and measured to date ( they could still cut the remaining part of the pipeline through Ukraine if they wished )

the fact that Europe now has issues , is a result of the politicians the citizens have allegedly elected , the citizens can either accept this outcome or start removing incumbent governments ( as is starting to happen )

BTW it is NOT just Russian gas it is Russian oil and coal , and Russia should now only export uranium and wheat and diamonds and nickel to 'friendly nations ' ( which includes over half the world's population )

Europe wants to live in a 'green paradise ' Russia should help accelerate their wishes ( while making strong friendships elsewhere )

 

[Value Collector]

nope, there is no 'energy crisis ' in Europe it is the consequence of a string of flawed policy decisions , that included taking existing nuclear reactors off-line prematurely , and the prince/princess syndrome where some expect their desires to be fulfilled instantly , the Russian reaction ( not giving Europe gas for free , while declaring they no longer intended buying Russian energy ) has been very mild and measured to date ( they could still cut the remaining part of the pipeline through Ukraine if they wished )

the fact that Europe now has issues , is a result of the politicians the citizens have allegedly elected , the citizens can either accept this outcome or start removing incumbent governments ( as is starting to happen )

BTW it is NOT just Russian gas it is Russian oil and coal , and Russia should now only export uranium and wheat and diamonds and nickel to 'friendly nations ' ( which includes over half the world's population )

Europe wants to live in a 'green paradise ' Russia should help accelerate their wishes ( while making strong friendships elsewhere )

Yeah, but just because it’s a man made / political problem definitely doesn’t mean it’s not a crisis.

My point is simply that Europe doesn’t have enough renewable electricity capacity to divert large amounts of electricity to producing liquid fuels or offsetting natural gas consumption.

Wholesale electricity prices are already sky high in Europe, and will be for a while until the fix the gas supply issue, sending tankers of hydrogen based fuel there might be a way to arbitrage the low costs of generating renewable solar and wind over seas into the European market.

 

[divs4ever]

it is made-made , and man can work towards a remedy ( currently )

Europe is NOT Africa , it has had the opportunity to well educate their population , and thus plot a successful course towards their goals , the fact that course has hit major hurdles were easily foreseeable Europe HAD a large number of nuclear power plants to ease the transition but CHOSE to close some of them first and still continue to take them odd-line ( or keep them as 'hot back-ups ' )

ALSO Europe has had plenty of time to have 'renewable energy ' set up to supply at least half in their energy needs Europe has had windmills for CENTURIES they have had adequate time to perfect the technology ( and ditto for water/gravity power )

.. but what was their solution ?? ... carbon credits

 

[divs4ever]

PS the original diesel engines were designed to operate on vegetable oils to change to petroleum products was a CHOICE

 

[Value Collector]

PS the original diesel engines were designed to operate on vegetable oils to change to petroleum products was a CHOICE

Yeah, they can run on soybean oil, but I am not sure how much of the worlds farmland it would be wise to dedicate to producing fuel rather than food.

Also, an acre of solar panels will produce more energy than you would collect from an acre of vegetable oil crops, and it’s less fickle than growing crops, not to mention you can put the solar panels in the desert.

—————
As for europes man made problems, sure they could end next week, but I think Putin is a tough man to deal with at the moment, and even if he comes back in a month with a smile on his face asking to be forgiven, I think the EU still wants more supply from others.

 

[divs4ever]

Yeah, they can run on soybean oil, but I am not sure how much of the worlds farmland it would be wise to dedicate to producing fuel rather than food.

Also, an acre of solar panels will produce more energy than you would collect from an acre of vegetable oil crops, and it’s less fickle than growing crops, not to mention you can put the solar panels in the desert.

—————
As for europes man made problems, sure they could end next week, but I think Putin is a tough man to deal with at the moment, and even if he comes back in a month with a smile on his face asking to be forgiven, I think the EU still wants more supply from others.

not just soy , from memory Bougainville got by nicely using coconut oil back when PNG was sanctioning it

Putin would not be as harsh as me to deal with ( and i am only a former paper-boy and VERY small business person ) i would be inclined to weld the door shut and chop the phone lines , MAYBE Trump could unfreeze the ice in the Russian heart but i doubt many other ( potential ) NATO leaders would even get a moments attention , let alone any pity

Europe burnt their bridges with me over Cyprus

now solar panels ( in the past i had three arrays , the max allowed on residential properties in QLD ) keeping those solar systems functional for more than 5 years has been an eye-opener and i haven't even tested out the battery durability yet ( and QLD has pretty good weather for solar , might be a bit harsh on the batteries , though 45C gets tested now and then )

i am thinking Europe's hope vanished with Nord Stream and Putin is just trolling to inspire extra unrest

and more importantly China is cooling towards the West , that also will have repercussions

 

[Mr Flibble]

It’s not as big a deal as you are making out, the relatively small amounts of shipping fuel inside ships wouldn’t cause to much damage on the rare occasion they leaked, the ammonia would dilute down to near background levels and then break down naturally.

In the case of a tanker spill, That can be mitigated by using modern compartmentalised carriers.

You also have the added benefit over Oil in that a large amount of oil spills come from actually drilling oil in the ocean, but we won’t be drilling for ammonia in the ocean.

My other concerns I guess I should have mentioned earlier are:
Burning hydrogen creates NOx gasses with potential for greenhouse effect#, but these emissions can possibly be reduced with catalytic convertors and/or advanced engine design

Desalinisation prior to electrolysis - There is the question of what happens to the brine. Unless carefully managed, it can do a lot of damage to the local coastal environment, it sinks to the bottom and tends to stay there unless there are sufficient currents to move it along. I would hope that since Twiggy has a marine biology degree, he would be aware of this though...

# eg https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF02987512

 

[Value Collector]

My other concerns I guess I should have mentioned earlier are:
Burning hydrogen creates NOx gasses with potential for greenhouse effect#, but these emissions can possibly be reduced with catalytic convertors and/or advanced engine design

Desalinisation prior to electrolysis - There is the question of what happens to the brine. Unless carefully managed, it can do a lot of damage to the local coastal environment, it sinks to the bottom and tends to stay there unless there are sufficient currents to move it along. I would hope that since Twiggy has a marine biology degree, he would be aware of this though...

# eg https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF02987512

Yep, but remember alternative energy sources don’t have to be perfect, they just have to be better than their predecessors. There is not much point sticking to something that is dreadful when decent alternatives exist just because the decent alternative isn’t perfect.

Also burning the bunker oil in ships also producers loads of NOx gases, and these do have rather short lives in the atmosphere compared to the Carbon that is also produced.

So if option 1 releases carbon and NOx, and option two only releases NOx then option 2 is better, especially when as you pointed out the Tech already exists to reduce it.

 

[Value Collector]

not just soy , from memory Bougainville got by nicely using coconut oil back when PNG was sanctioning it

Putin would not be as harsh as me to deal with ( and i am only a former paper-boy and VERY small business person ) i would be inclined to weld the door shut and chop the phone lines , MAYBE Trump could unfreeze the ice in the Russian heart but i doubt many other ( potential ) NATO leaders would even get a moments attention , let alone any pity

Europe burnt their bridges with me over Cyprus

now solar panels ( in the past i had three arrays , the max allowed on residential properties in QLD ) keeping those solar systems functional for more than 5 years has been an eye-opener and i haven't even tested out the battery durability yet ( and QLD has pretty good weather for solar , might be a bit harsh on the batteries , though 45C gets tested now and then )

i am thinking Europe's hope vanished with Nord Stream and Putin is just trolling to inspire extra unrest

and more importantly China is cooling towards the West , that also will have repercussions

It doesn’t matter which vege oil you use, it still requires farmland, water and fertilisers, all of which are better used to produce food or just leave as natural forest.

If you think keeping solar panels producing is hard, I take it you have never been a farmer producing vegetable oil.

 

[divs4ever]

oh yes , i did but only as an employee of a farmer but that was only proof of concept growing out-of-season tomatoes ( the 'farmer' was also a chemical engineer )

and ideally the vegetable oil should be a by-product of the major crop , but that is another debate

BTW i didn't MAKE the solar panels , but now have a wonderful collection of dud ones ( suitable for scrapping when prices climb higher )

the aluminum alone will be a nice nest egg when needed

 

[Country Lad]

@Joe Blow, I vote we have 2 FMG threads, one for iron ore only and the other one for any wild and irrelevant topic you like. I have FMG but I am about to put this one on ignore.

 

[Value Collector]

@Joe Blow, I vote we have 2 FMG threads, one for iron ore only and the other one for any wild and irrelevant topic you like. I have FMG but I am about to put this one on ignore.

This is the FMG thread, not the Iron Ore thread.

Discussing things that relate to FMG’s energy business is on topic in my opinion.

 

[frugal.rock]

@Joe Blow, I vote we have 2 FMG threads, one for iron ore only and the other one for any wild and irrelevant topic you like. I have FMG but I am about to put this one on ignore.

I arrived at your post, then realised that I have just wasted 10 minutes of oxygen in this crook. ?

 

[Country Lad]

This is the FMG thread, not the Iron Ore thread.

Discussing things that relate to FMG’s energy business is on topic in my opinion.

The last dozen or so posts had nothing to do with FMG. Now, let's see, how do I put this one on ignore.

 

[Value Collector]

The last dozen or so posts had nothing to do with FMG. Now, let's see, how do I put this one on ignore.

We were discussing Ammonia based fuels, and renewable energy as they relate to the viability of FMGs proposed new business, that is directly related to FMG’s energy business.

But I will make it easy for you, I will put you on ignore then you won’t be bothered by my comments.

 

[Joe Blow]

@Joe Blow, I vote we have 2 FMG threads, one for iron ore only and the other one for any wild and irrelevant topic you like. I have FMG but I am about to put this one on ignore.

This is a difficult dispute to mediate. FMG is a large business and Value Collector has claimed that the discussion of ammonia based fuels was relevant to FMG's proposed new energy business. To complicate (or perhaps simplify) matters, Value Collector has now put you on ignore which means that you should not be able to see any of his posts. I am assuming that much of the discussion that irritated you is now not visible to you... which makes it difficult to know how to proceed.

 

[Country Lad]

This is a difficult dispute to mediate. FMG is a large business and Value Collector has claimed that the discussion of ammonia based fuels was relevant to FMG's proposed new energy business. To complicate (or perhaps simplify) matters, Value Collector has now put you on ignore which means that you should not be able to see any of his posts. I am assuming that much of the discussion that irritated you is now not visible to you... which makes it difficult to know how to proceed.

Not to worry @Joe Blow, I will put this thread on ignore.