Flying Fox Wars

Bloveld said:

First post and he starts out calling people who have a different opinion to himself, pathetic.
Great way to start a rational discussion.

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Huh? First post? I don't think so.
Do you have something to contribute to the topic?

Sdajii said:

Indeed, but you need to ask yourself, not me!

It's a simple concept. You ask me for some information, I give it to you. If you want to know what the point is, you need to ask yourself, because you are the one who knows why it was requested (unless you are just requesting things at random, or are strange enough to ask me what your own motives/desires are, in which case I am sorry but I can't help you).

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Sorry I was being obscure
I don't know or heard of any conservation group that call for the protection of feral or introduced species or as you keep labeling tree huggers, greenies, blah blah

This is the location of the colony in Bundaberg, blue circle near the bridge in the middle of town.

There is no 'natural' food source in the local vicinity. On the wider span map you can see the concentration of cultivated farm land 20 to 30 km around Bundaberg and smaller amount aroung Childers and Gin Gin where sugar cane, small crops and orchards are grown.

BUT, look at the amount of State forests and Natural Parks further out. The only logical reason why flying foxes have concentrated in the river in the centre of town is because of the lack of natural preditors and protection from shooting and proximity to 'unatural' food sources.

If conservation of the species is the issue, they aught to be located in 'natural' habitat and 'natural' food source, otherwise we will have a similar problem to Fraser Island dingoes that were allowed to mingle with campers and their food scraps, ie a whole lot of 'unatural' behaviour.

Bats are not stupid. They are quite intelligent with good smell, eyesight and hearing. That's why they will stay where they are and multiply at an increasing rate because they know they can roost here without fear of preditors and scout backyards and farms for food and move on the the forests as a last resort.

A classic example of a colony that aught to be moved out or at least allow orchardists etc to shoot a small number. The idea of only needing to shoot a small number is because once they see and or hear one on their own killed they learn to stay clear for some time.

Someone made a comment earlier that the disease they spread is hardly deadly based on the low number of reported deaths. That's a gross misrepresentation. The disease is extremely deadly because there is no cure and little early symptoms. Plenty of animals but few humans have died because of the strict quarantine proceedures put in place AND WHAT ABOUT THE FINANCIAL COST OF THE QUARANTINE AND LOSS OF INCOME OF PROPERTIES AFFECTED.

It's interesting that the gov will order the shooting of a Fraser Island Dingo if it attacked or even looked like attacking a human, and surely the dingo is more threatened than the Black Flying Fox that is the problem here as referred to in my earlier post.

But further, anyone who accidently kills a Flying Fox caught in protective netting or similar has to fill in a form and report it to the gov (link previous post). That's just plain rediculous.

IFocus said:

Sorry I was being obscure
I don't know or heard of any conservation group that call for the protection of feral or introduced species or as you keep labeling tree huggers, greenies, blah blah

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I already gave you three examples of exotic (non native) species which cause damage to our ecosystems and already have legal protection: Deer, trout and horses.

Sdajii said:

I already gave you three examples of exotic (non native) species which cause damage to our ecosystems and already have legal protection: Deer, trout and horses.

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Sdajii which deer are you referring to? Fallow, Red, Hog (axis) and chital all have seasons but are allowed to be harvested. Sambar and Rusa have no season which means can be hunted all yr. Sry for the off topic but just wanted some clarification.

P.S i agree with you thow that deer do damage our eco system.

Ageo said:

Sdajii which deer are you referring to? Fallow, Red, Hog (axis) and chital all have seasons but are allowed to be harvested. Sambar and Rusa have no season which means can be hunted all yr. Sry for the off topic but just wanted some clarification.

P.S i agree with you thow that deer do damage our eco system.

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*YOU* have just given *ME* three examples! Why do you want to get into nitty gritty particulars which are beyond the information relevant to the thread? Surely you have more than enough of the 'evidence' that you requested about there being exotic species which cause environmental damage and have protection if you are giving it to me. Fallow, Red and Hog Deer all have closed seasons on hunting, which are there to *protect* the species so that they can *maintain their populations* which means they will *continue to cause environmental damage*. You yourself *agree* with all these points yet *continue to ask for more information*. Forgive me if I ignore any or all of your posts from here on.

Ageo said:

Sdajii which deer are you referring to? Fallow, Red, Hog (axis) and chital all have seasons but are allowed to be harvested. Sambar and Rusa have no season which means can be hunted all yr. Sry for the off topic but just wanted some clarification.

P.S i agree with you thow that deer do damage our eco system.

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*YOU* have just given *ME* examples! Why do you want to get into nitty gritty particulars which are beyond the information relevant to the thread? Surely you have more than enough of the 'evidence' that you requested about there being exotic species which cause environmental damage and have protection if you are giving it to me. The deer you list have closed seasons on hunting, which are there to *protect* the species so that they can *maintain their populations* which means they will *continue to cause environmental damage*. It surely stands to reason that if there are *limitations on hunting* there is no plan to *wipe them out* but rather *protect* them so they are ensured to *continue to exist* under the protection and management of the environmental authorities. You yourself *agree* with all these points yet *continue to ask for more information*. Forgive me if I stop bothering to answer your questions.

Sdajii said:

*YOU* have just given *ME* examples! Why do you want to get into nitty gritty particulars which are beyond the information relevant to the thread? Surely you have more than enough of the 'evidence' that you requested about there being exotic species which cause environmental damage and have protection if you are giving it to me. The deer you list have closed seasons on hunting, which are there to *protect* the species so that they can *maintain their populations* which means they will *continue to cause environmental damage*. It surely stands to reason that if there are *limitations on hunting* there is no plan to *wipe them out* but rather *protect* them so they are ensured to *continue to exist* under the protection and management of the environmental authorities. You yourself *agree* with all these points yet *continue to ask for more information*. Forgive me if I stop bothering to answer your questions.

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Sdajii relax mate, im not arguing against you. I hunt deer all the time along with other game and im fully aware of the damage feral & non feral animals do to our eco systems. But remember even roos and other native animals cause damage to our environments/farming etc... it doesnt mean we wipe them all out, but rather manage. Just like flying foxes and any other out of control animal.

Ageo said:

Sdajii relax mate, im not arguing against you. I hunt deer all the time along with other game and im fully aware of the damage feral & non feral animals do to our eco systems. But remember even roos and other native animals cause damage to our environments/farming etc... it doesnt mean we wipe them all out, but rather manage. Just like flying foxes and any other out of control animal.

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Well, it makes sense to manage native animals like kangaroos when they are out of control due to human influence (land clearing and improvement of water availability = kangaroo plague). It makes sense because kangaroos are indigenous to Australia and if we wipe them out they are extinct, which most would agree is a shame. Deer on the other hand are not native to Australia, have no conservation value, and simply cause harm. The two are not comparable. Flying foxes fit into (or should fit into) the 'native animal to be controlled' category like kangaroos, whereas the deer have no good reason to be protected, yet still are.

Sorry for my dismissive response to your post, I didn't check and thought it had been submitted by the galah, which of course changes the context.

We seem to be sorry for everything we do.

We might just live our lives and adopt surroundings to our requirements, same as we did for first 60,000 years or so of our homosapienness.

After all if we are on a brink of reviving Tasmanian Tiger and possibly even Mammoth, why worry about accidentally wiping out Flying Foxes or Kangaroos, (if the worst happens, we can always import some from China, like we import everything else, including garlic).

Alternatively all we need is freeze some sperm and we can surely find some matching womb should the disaster happen and we wipe out one too many.

All is in a state of flux and species died and were established without our interference too.

As I said, we just seem to be too sorry that we exist (another bout of political correctness!)

Sdajii said:

Well, it makes sense to manage native animals like kangaroos when they are out of control due to human influence (land clearing and improvement of water availability = kangaroo plague). It makes sense because kangaroos are indigenous to Australia and if we wipe them out they are extinct, which most would agree is a shame. Deer on the other hand are not native to Australia, have no conservation value, and simply cause harm. The two are not comparable. Flying foxes fit into (or should fit into) the 'native animal to be controlled' category like kangaroos, whereas the deer have no good reason to be protected, yet still are.

Sorry for my dismissive response to your post, I didn't check and thought it had been submitted by the galah, which of course changes the context.

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Sdajii thats ok. As for wiping out feral animals well that will probably never happen as they are too deep in some parts of Australia for us to get to. 1080 does kill but it also kills natives and give animals a not as humane death such as a bullet to the brain.

But back to topic, the fruit bats like any animal in large proportions should be managed. Saying they all fly together is a bit strange as many people around Australia say there is large populations of them roaming.

There was a similar project that happened recently in the illawarra area on controlling deer near universites and other populated areas which deer had been damaging for yrs. Basically accredited conservation hunters (which are at basically no cost to taxpayers) took care of the problem with minimal fuss. Of course you had the usual "omg they could have shot us, how dangerous blah blah" but in the end it worked out much better than any other solution.

Something like that should be looked at with fruit bats which doesnt cost tax payers hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Ageo said:

Something like that should be looked at with fruit bats which doesnt cost tax payers hundreds of thousands of dollars.

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Actually it is happening in reverse.

It is costing taxpayers a fortune by not allowing the culling of the pest. It would cost the taxpayers nothing to cull them. People troubled with them would gladly join in the cull at no cost to everyone else.

The cost of the damage that the foxes are doing to crops is staggering. They can wipe out whole crops in one night. While that cost is carried in the first instance by the grower it is passed on to the consumer sooner or later. Actually I know of cases wher a taxpayer actually became a non tax payer because of the loss incurred after being attacked by these vermin.

The pests don't need wholesale slaughter. They just need a "hurry up" every now and then.

Ageo said:

Sdajii thats ok. As for wiping out feral animals well that will probably never happen as they are too deep in some parts of Australia for us to get to. 1080 does kill but it also kills natives and give animals a not as humane death such as a bullet to the brain.

But back to topic, the fruit bats like any animal in large proportions should be managed. Saying they all fly together is a bit strange as many people around Australia say there is large populations of them roaming.

There was a similar project that happened recently in the illawarra area on controlling deer near universites and other populated areas which deer had been damaging for yrs. Basically accredited conservation hunters (which are at basically no cost to taxpayers) took care of the problem with minimal fuss. Of course you had the usual "omg they could have shot us, how dangerous blah blah" but in the end it worked out much better than any other solution.

Something like that should be looked at with fruit bats which doesnt cost tax payers hundreds of thousands of dollars.

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I'm not necessarily saying we need to launch a zillion dollar deer eradication project; there are better things to be spending conservation dollars on. But it is insane to be actively protecting a pest animal like deer.

IFocus said:

Once you get to personal attacks you no longer have an argument.

Fact is I come from a farming family worked and lived in most parts of WA you want to lecture me on my own back yard?

Your comments are pretty much incorrect / assumptions and again not fact.

Land clearing in the WA wheat belt has led to massive problems with salinity fact.

This has led to significant loss of production in cereal crops in the state fact

This is where the big money is fact

Your other assumptions are rubbish, timber in arid areas your joking surely you make it sound like we have vast forests, have you any idea what scrub looks like, when I visit friends in the pastoral areas again I will pass on your advice hilarious



Natural state you are joking what don't you know goats in times of drought which over here run for ten years or more (in your pastoral areas) are one of the main incomes, any idea what goats do.........you call me narrow minded

Please tell / lecture me more about WA and intelligence.

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I'm well aware that land clearing has led to salinity problems in the WA wheat belt - I'm not disputing that at all.
What I'm disputing is your original wildly exaggerated claim that WA is one big salt lake as a result of land clearing.
The absurdity of this statement is highlighted by the fact that most of WA is arid desert or semi desert, sparsely timbered or in some cases no timber at all. This land has never been cleared of timber and probably never will be, due to the fact that its low rainfall, poor soils and harsh climate make it unsuited to the type of agriculture that requires the removal of every tree.
The fact is that the area of salinity in WA, though significant, represents only a tiny percentage of the state.
WA is not, as you claimed, one big salt lake as a result of land clearing.

No, I don't make it sound like you have vast forests in WA. As I stated in a previous post, most of WA is in the arid zone, i.e desert and semi-desert. Most people of normal intelligence associate desert country with sparse timber coverage. However, for those who are behind the pack, the mention of deserts may well conjure up images of vast forests.

Do I know what goats do? Yes actually, I'm very familiar with goats, having run a commercial flock on my own property for fleece production and noxious weed control, as well as a couple of thousand feral goats.

There's two types of goats.
The two-legged variety can be found on internet forums making wildly exaggerated claims that they can't substantiate.

The four legged variety are much like flying foxes - they play a useful and important role in nature when they're in moderate numbers, but become troublesome and destructive if their numbers become excessive.

IFocus said:

There is one problem as evidence here in the west there is no balance

I adhere to one underlining principle

Don't know about you but I have kids

The environment this generation hands over to the next must not be worse.

The numbers are clear it wont happen

To do so with all the knowledge at our finger tips is the ultimate betrayal.

To do other wise is.............you fill in the dots.

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I'm impressed by your noble aspirations in wanting to hand over a better environment to your kids.
I aspire to the same ideals myself.
However, I do hope your children grow up being more open-minded, realistic and balanced than their father is in relation to environmental and conservation issues.
I hope they'll learn that wildly exaggerated claims do nothing to advance the cause of conservation and environmental protection.

Like you, I'm a conservationist - but I'm not the fanatical variety who says we must let troublesome wildlife destroy our livelihoods and ruin our lives.
I try to get some balance into my thinking on environmental and conservation issues.

Flying foxes play a useful role in nature, as do termites and grasshoppers and flies and spiders and just about every other creature you could name.
However, they should be controlled by the most expedient means available when they invade our crops and homes and school playgrounds and public recreation areas.

If you and I have a right to eliminate termites when they attack our homes, then farmers certainly have the right to eliminate flying foxes that attack their crops.
That doesn't mean we embark on a mission of exterminating every termite or flying fox - the idea is to control them without threatening the species.
It can be done - but the task is not made easier by radical, small-minded greenies or the silly governments who listen to them.

Bloveld said:

First post and he starts out calling people who have a different opinion to himself, pathetic.
Great way to start a rational discussion.

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If a rational discussion is what you're looking for, then I suggest you lead by example.
Perhaps you could start by giving a rational explanation as to why we should allow flying foxes to destroy agricultural crops, school playgrounds, and public recreation areas like parks and gardens.

Have you considered asking IFocus if you can borrow his avatar?

There's two types of goats.
The two-legged variety can be found on internet forums making wildly exaggerated claims that they can't substantiate.

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Once you get to personal attacks you no longer have an argument

I am with you bunyip.

You have gone out of your way to express your views more than enough and I have to concur with your views, and also your tenacity to keep plugging away to the solid fundamentals of your arguement.

I have always been in agreement, posts #7,9,20,24,and I do find it hard that people cant see the point.

And again it all comes down to who survives.

Being top of the food chain...... we`ll see when things become desparate.

Onya bunyip

IFocus said:

Once you get to personal attacks you no longer have an argument

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Not only do I have an argument, but unlike you, I've backed up my arguments with solid reasoning that you have been completely unable to refute.

bunyip said:

No doubt you'll be doing your bit to control salinity then, by demolishing your house and embarking on a mass tree planting program to restore your land to what it was before you or some developer before you came in and cleared the trees off it!

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LOL. Great call.

nunthewiser said:

stuff the whales

save a fruitbat

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Sdajii said:

Next it will be save the rabbits, foxes, rats and cane toads.

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It already is
http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2005/s1342441.htm
http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...r-cane-toad-golf/story-e6freoof-1111113699939

I practice my golf swing every night (and will continue to do so)

Anyone notice the amount of fruit bats on the sunshine coast - Bruce Hwy between Caloundra and Gympie?

Astonishing. Hundreds of thousands (if not millions). Don't believe me? Drive up/down there and look for yourself...

Plague proportions? Naaaaaa