Flying Fox Wars

[IFocus]

Not bothering me here in Perth.
So I say protect them.
They are only bothering a small unimportant part of the population.
You know, the hayseeds, rednecks, bumpkins and yokels.

And if you blockheads hadnt killed all the snakes an eagles, you wouldnt have a problem.

Unfortunately Bloveld your post was to deep for the WAWKEIEEFC LOL

Chops, agree about the Libs here in WA

BTW where have you been?

 

[bunyip]

By the way, fruit bats are considered a delicacy in India. If we were smart we could set up a canned fruit bat export industry. I believe that in NZ (where introduced Australian possums are in plague proportions) they did at one time export canned possum to China under the name of "Kiwi Bear"'

Pity we can't can some of these silly damn animal libber types and export them as well.

In Papua New Guinea I've seen the natives stretch nets across rivers and gorges and catch flying foxes by the hundreds.
They're as much a delicacy to the PNG natives as honey ants and witchety grubs are to the aborigines of Central Australia.

 

[IFocus]

Pity we can't can some of these silly damn animal libber types and export them as well.

In Papua New Guinea I've seen the natives stretch nets across rivers and gorges and catch flying foxes by the hundreds.
They're as much a delicacy to the PNG natives as honey ants and witchety grubs are to the aborigines of Central Australia.

I can just see you with a bone through your nose.

You cannot export us lot from WA as we currently carry you lot of free loaders / paper shufflers on our backs as we power the Australian economy.

In fact export the WAWKEIEEFC but no one would have them............

 

[Buckfont]

Ifocus, I really appreciate what WA has done for our country as it has given us all a lot of hope for all our futures.

But may I add that your avatar is spot on.

You really are a Galah

 

[chops_a_must]

Chops, agree about the Libs here in WA

BTW where have you been?

Got bored of this place and had another forum to waste my time instead. I think some Israeli debate was the killer back then. Been a pretty tumultuous time family wise the last 18 months, so trading and things has been a pretty low priority, although I still have been.

Moved to Darwin in October last year, and just started my Masters. Working full time as a fire assayer and just back in Perth briefly for graduation and to move/ store my stuff. I'm taking my trading computer back with me so I'll be back on here again a little bit I'd say.

Was the AOE stuff this morning that got me back on here.

 

[IFocus]

Got bored of this place and had another forum to waste my time instead. I think some Israeli debate was the killer back then. Been a pretty tumultuous time family wise the last 18 months, so trading and things has been a pretty low priority, although I still have been.

Moved to Darwin in October last year, and just started my Masters. Working full time as a fire assayer and just back in Perth briefly for graduation and to move/ store my stuff. I'm taking my trading computer back with me so I'll be back on here again a little bit I'd say.

Was the AOE stuff this morning that got me back on here.

Missed you Chops hope the family stuff sorts its self out with no major scaring good luck on the Masters not that I think you need it.

 

[IFocus]

Ifocus, I really appreciate what WA has done for our country as it has given us all a lot of hope for all our futures.

But may I add that your avatar is spot on.

You really are a Galah

Thanks Buckfront appreciate being called a real Australian

 

[chops_a_must]

Missed you Chops hope the family stuff sorts its self out with no major scaring good luck on the Masters not that I think you need it.

It has already.

I think I'll hang around a bit again. Someone has to stand up for the lefties, bleeding hearts and enviros and wind up these "high flyers" somehow. :

 

[Whiskers]

It seems like many of the problem and large colonies have moved into urban areas where there are no natural preditors of any consequence and plenty of unnatural as in highly productive farms and food supplies.

I know in Bundaberg a big population lives in the mangroves and trees on an island in the Burnett River which runs through the city. I believe it's a similar situation in Harvey Bay.

From the Qld dept of Environment website...

Predators
By living in large numbers, flying-foxes are little affected by predators like pythons, owls and sea-eagles that only take a few individuals and leave the rest of the camp intact.

... surely a little logical deduction would suggest that they colonise in these places because of the lack of preditors that are also reducing in number like the Sea Eagle and Owl, and Pythons like any snake that is seen and caught in urban areas, is removed way out into the country.

I wonder how many of the leftist greenies would leave a Python, or other large deadly snake capable of eating a young bat, such as Brown, Black or Tipan, roam urban areas including their own back yard and fruit trees to act naturally as preditors of any bats that frequent their neighbourhood or backyard. I reckon none... they would remove them as quick as a flash.

So much for their so called 'natural' enviornment!

I say start a campaign to make the leftist greenie conversavionists literally practice what they preach and insist on putting some snakes back into these bat populations and their back yard food sources like in 'nature/natural'.

As to the depleted habitat arguement, BULLSH!T... it's not about habitat near as much as it's about easy food source. I remember when we used to shoot a few ocassionally they tended to stay away from UNNATURAL food sources.

It's only natural and obvious as like mice and locust plagues when environmental conditions favor, most frequently from UNNATURAL crops that they multiply expontentionally if not controlled early.

And can you beliece this...

Guideline: Euthanasia of flying foxes trapped in orchard nets
A guideline has been developed describing how flying foxes may be euthanised in certain circumstances. These circumstances are limited and specific. A form is also provided that must be completed and retained following each incident of a flying fox being euthanised.

http://www.derm.qld.gov.au/wildlife-ecosystems/wildlife/living_with_wildlife/flyingfoxes/

 

[chops_a_must]

As to the depleted habitat arguement, BULLSH!T... it's not about habitat near as much as it's about easy food source. I remember when we used to shoot a few ocassionally they tended to stay away from UNNATURAL food sources.

Whiskers, with animals as with plants who have an ability to transmigrate easily, when you have ecosystem pathway disruption, species will tend to conglomerate in areas. It's the same with trees in national parks. I would bet that these areas that the fruit bats are in plague proportions are in areas that have been largely disrupted.

If you have areas that are high in food, but an intact system of habitats, I doubt you'd get the same problems.

And by in large the predators of fruit bats appear to be animals that would not generally stay in areas close to human habitation. Unfortunately, humans have to accept that there are consequences for creating sprawl and disrupting the ecosystems - this is just one. There is a simple solution to this though, stop developing on massive lots with isolated woods.

I'm also not sure why sharks and crocodiles get thrown into this debate? Had a 2m croc about 20m away from where we were eating a few weeks back. Didn't bother us greatly. Just kept eating and keeping an eye on it. But maybe I don't fit everyone's pigeon hole, hey whiskers? And sharks and crocs are nowhere near being in plague proportions.

 

[Whiskers]

Whiskers, with animals as with plants who have an ability to transmigrate easily, when you have ecosystem pathway disruption, species will tend to conglomerate in areas. It's the same with trees in national parks. I would bet that these areas that the fruit bats are in plague proportions are in areas that have been largely disrupted.

If you have areas that are high in food, but an intact system of habitats, I doubt you'd get the same problems.

And by in large the predators of fruit bats appear to be animals that would not generally stay in areas close to human habitation.

Yes, that's true Chops, but I believe the main offender in this area at least is the Black Flying Fox. It's natural habitat is tee tree and mangrove swamp where they feed off nectar and small berry size tree fruits. That habitat has been largely uninterrupted as it's too wet and not suitable for farming. There are large areas of tee tree (paperbark) swamp in natural parks in the region, but I'm not aware of any substantial colonies there anymore.

Over the last thirty years or so the greater Bundaberg area has shifted from mainly sugar cane to become a substantial tropical and sub-tropical fruit growing areas along the coast. Many local people believe the population has grown with the fruit and vegetable industry, a much easier and more abundant food source... which leads me to this article re bats in the Brisbane Times.

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/que...k-rises-as-bats-move-south-20090817-ennb.html

One has to wonder whether the Black Flying Fox is even endangered at all.

Also, given the seriousness of the disease consequences, surely that common sense says keep the population manageable and away from populated areas. I believe the extremists have even blocked plans to use various devices to scare them away from roosting in urban areas into more remote locations.

 

[Ageo]

How could you kill a small little cuddly wuddly creature like that??? they have feelings you know...... you all are a bunch of cruel rednecks!












On a serious note a 12g with no.4 shot should do the trick

 

[bunyip]

On a serious note a 12g with no.4 shot should do the trick

I remember one particularly bad year for flying foxes when I was a lad. Each afternoon just before dark they'd fly over our place in the millions. My Dad used to cut loose with his Browning semi automatic shotgun, killed hundreds of them but made no impression on their numbers. We were on a farm with no neighbours near us - not that they'd have cared anyway since everyone hated the cursed flying foxes. And it was back in the days before so many brain-dead morons started lobbying for flying foxes to be given a free rein, even if it meant putting up with them spreading disease and destroying farmers crops and closing down kids playgrounds and public recreation areas.

It's interesting that not one person who supports protecting flying foxes, not a single one, has come out with any intelligent reasons why they should not be culled or at least moved on when they gather in their hundreds of thousands and create havoc for humans.

 

[chops_a_must]

It's interesting that not one person who supports protecting flying foxes, not a single one, has come out with any intelligent reasons why they should not be culled or at least moved on when they gather in their hundreds of thousands and create havoc for humans.

Because they'll just end up back there?

 

[sinner]

It's interesting that not one person who supports protecting flying foxes, not a single one, has come out with any intelligent reasons why they should not be culled or at least moved on when they gather in their hundreds of thousands and create havoc for humans.

Provided by the Royal Botanical Gardens Sydney (just a bunch of scientists, what would they know):

Flying-foxes are important pollinators of the eucalypt forests and woodlands of eastern and northern Australia. Their main food source is the protein-rich pollen produced by Eucalyptus flowers. Eucalyptus trees need pollen from other trees of their species (out-crossing) to produce fertile seed, and the largely nomadic flying-foxes are very good at providing this transport service. While feeding on nectar and pollen in flowers, pollen grains stick to the fur of the flying-foxes. Some pollen is eaten during grooming, but some is carried on the fur to other flowers to fertilise the ovules which then develop into seeds. This pollen may be carried for very long distances (up to 100 km in one night) and across cleared land, which provides an essential genetic link between fragmented patches of native vegetation. Other pollinators, such as birds, bees (including native stingless bees), moths, butterflies, wasps, flies, beetles, other small mammals such as gliders and the wind, operate over much smaller areas.

Through pollination and seed dispersal, flying-foxes help to provide habitat for other flora and fauna species and also help to sustain Australia’s hardwood timber, honey and native plant industries. But to be effective in this role, flying-foxes need to be in large numbers.

(I tried highlighting the important bits, but it ended up being the whole thing).

 

[Sdajii]

Provided by the Royal Botanical Gardens Sydney (just a bunch of scientists, what would they know):

Flying-foxes are important pollinators of the eucalypt forests and woodlands of eastern and northern Australia. Their main food source is the protein-rich pollen produced by Eucalyptus flowers. Eucalyptus trees need pollen from other trees of their species (out-crossing) to produce fertile seed, and the largely nomadic flying-foxes are very good at providing this transport service. While feeding on nectar and pollen in flowers, pollen grains stick to the fur of the flying-foxes. Some pollen is eaten during grooming, but some is carried on the fur to other flowers to fertilise the ovules which then develop into seeds. This pollen may be carried for very long distances (up to 100 km in one night) and across cleared land, which provides an essential genetic link between fragmented patches of native vegetation. Other pollinators, such as birds, bees (including native stingless bees), moths, butterflies, wasps, flies, beetles, other small mammals such as gliders and the wind, operate over much smaller areas.

Through pollination and seed dispersal, flying-foxes help to provide habitat for other flora and fauna species and also help to sustain Australia’s hardwood timber, honey and native plant industries. But to be effective in this role, flying-foxes need to be in large numbers.

(I tried highlighting the important bits, but it ended up being the whole thing).

That's lovely, but we don't need millions of them to do that job. A very small number can move a bit of pollen around. A massive number of them just moves around causing devastation.

I'm an animal lover, my background is biology, I've worked in bio labs, on conservation projects, with animals in the field in a scientific context, etc. Most of the scientists are reasonably rational (there are some bleeding hearts among us though).

The most painful ones are the bleeding hearts who don't understand anything more than "It's cuddly, you must not hurt it". You can not argue with these people you can not reason with these people. It is like religion. If someone arrives at an opinion through emotion you can not change it with a rational point, no matter how clear you make things. They will spend all their money and time nursing an injured or orphaned kangaroo until it can be released into the wild, even though it will never be fully healthy again, will certainly die fairly soon after release due to humanisation, etc, and they do this despite the fact that kangaroos are shot as vermin, so adding one more means one more must be shot. Many of them will even nurse rats and other exotics! Ugh. If you have much to do with these people it very quickly becomes obvious that they are not doing it for conservation or even for the animals, they are doing it for themselves, generally for narcissistic reasons, but conservation and/or animal welfare is a convenient excuse.

They use arguments like "It might not make a difference, but it makes a difference to that individual" or "All you need to do to understand my point of view is to look into a joey's eyes". You just can't argue with blind ignorance or denial which in most eyes holds the high moral ground. It's a little similar to the whaling issue. With emotion people are happy to claim/believe that many species of whales are endangered as a justification to oppose their harvest. They also manage to put up a ridiculous claim that whales don't eat massive amounts of seafood which could otherwise be eaten by people or eaten by fish which could be eaten by people. I'm sure some of the people complaining about the breeding heart flying fox lovers are firmly against whaling (although there are additional issues with whaling, yes, I realise that).

I actually love flying foxes, I think they're lovely little creatures. They're cute and I just like them. But I do understand that they're a serious problem and need to be controlled, and it's insane that nothing can legally be done. If we as a nation had any collective sense we would export them to whoever wanted to buy them, along with possums, parrots and other cute vermin. If possum and parrot meat was available at Safeway I would eat it every week. I'd be a little wary about flying fox due to disease concerns, but canned would be safe.

Unfortunately, while they're comfortable, most people just can't be talked out of an emotional belief, so our fruit farms are going to continue feeding the flying foxes.

 

[sinner]

Unfortunately, while they're comfortable, most people just can't be talked out of an emotional belief, so our fruit farms are going to continue feeding the flying foxes.

Funny that a valid non-emtional reason was requested and provided, and your response was to somehow pin it all on emotional cuddly lovers or some crap instead of providing a rational counterpoint. Which one would expect of someone with a "biology background"...unless your counterpoint was essentially that the statement provided above by RBGS is factually incorrect or misleading.

Here are some actual facts:

In an overview of control methods performed by DPI QLD, shooting was rated as the least effective "Crop losses are often still extensive with shooting, especially when there is a scarcity of native food.". Geeeeeee...I wonder where all that native food went.

In an independant panel commissioned by the NSW govt, shooting of flying foxes (endangered Grey headed flying foxes no less) was deemed be unethical and inhumane.

These devastating "diseased" animals...well wait a minute let's actually look at those diseases:
Australian Bat Lyssavirus (ABL)
Catching diseases from bats is extremely unlikely. Australian Bat Lyssavirus (ABL) can only be caught from untreated bites or scratches from infected bats. One person has died from lyssavirus from a flying-fox (there has also been a lyssavirus death from a micro-bat).
Hendra virus

Flying-foxes are also hosts for Hendra virus. It appears that occasionally, Hendra virus spills over from the flying fox population into horses where it causes an infection that often results in the death of the horse. The rarity of infections indicates that these transmissions may only occur under very specific conditions.

Wow...devastating...

Meanwhile, check out the background to this story
http://austrop.org.au/ArchiveOldSite/fox_threats.html

Lovely. Burning, gassing, explosives, "Fyre Fox System"...what a smart bunch we are, we sure showed those flying foxes who's boss.

Here is what a bunch of "cuddly lovers" have to say about why you would save a flying fox...they sound so irrational...

"Fruit bats play a vital role in the ecology of the rain forests where they live. Old world fruit bats eat the fruit, nectar or flowers of more than 300 plant species, and these plants rely on the bats for seed dispersal and pollination. Unlike birds, bats disperse seeds far away from the parent tree by eating them and depositing the seeds in their droppings. In fact, Seeds dropped by bats can account for up to 95 percent of forest regrowth on cleared land. Performing this essential role puts these bats among the most important seed-dispersing animals of both the Old and New World."

Here is what DSE VIC has to say about flying foxes

"
Flying-foxes are nomadic animals; their movement patterns and local distribution are determined by variations in climate and the flowering and fruiting patterns of their preferred food plants.

Flying-fox numbers and distribution in Australia have changed markedly since European settlement. Loss of natural habitat and food supply in New South Wales and Queensland due to land clearing and human culling in the past has rapidly reduced numbers of some species in eastern Australia. Grey-headed Flying-fox and Spectacled Flying-fox numbers have decreased to such an extent that they are both listed as threatened under the Commonwealth Environment Protection and Biodiversity Conservation Act 1999.

This loss of habitat and the creation of new habitat and year round food supply in suburban areas over the last 30 years, has meant changes have occurred in Flying-fox distribution. For example, the range of the Grey-headed Flying-fox has contracted in the northern area (southern Queensland and northern New South Wales) and expanded southwards into Victoria.

The Grey-headed Flying-fox has adapted its behaviour to take advantage of new habitat and reliable food supplies. Permanent camp sites have been established close to or in suburban areas of Brisbane, Sydney and Melbourne where planting and watering of trees has produced a year-round food supply of native nectar, blossom, fruit and leaves."

As well as

Conservation Status
"Of the four species of Flying-foxes in Australia, both the Grey-headed Flying-fox and the Spectacled Flying-fox are listed as threatened under the Commonwealth Environment Protection and Biodiversity Conservation Act 1999. They are considered "vulnerable" due to a significant decline in numbers as a result of loss of their prime feeding habitat and secluded camp sites.

Both species are potentially at risk of extinction. This is due to a slow reproductive rate (one young per year), the relatively long time for males to become sexually mature (in the wild the average age for sexual maturity is 30 months, the average life span is 4 years) and the high rate of infant mortality.

The Grey-headed Flying-fox is also listed as a threatened species under the Victorian Flora and Fauna Guarantee Act 1988.

Ecological Importance
Flying-foxes play a major role in the regeneration of native hardwood forests and rainforests by pollinating as they feed and dispersing seeds as they move throughout the forest. It is estimated that a single Flying-fox can dispense up-to 60,000 seeds in one night."

Yeah...1988...sounds like real influential pressure on the Govt by these neo hippy bastards...never seen a bat so devious and audacious as to move into our habitat after we destroyed theirs. How dare they!

 

[bunyip]

Provided by the Royal Botanical Gardens Sydney (just a bunch of scientists, what would they know):

Flying-foxes are important pollinators of the eucalypt forests and woodlands of eastern and northern Australia. Their main food source is the protein-rich pollen produced by Eucalyptus flowers. Eucalyptus trees need pollen from other trees of their species (out-crossing) to produce fertile seed, and the largely nomadic flying-foxes are very good at providing this transport service. While feeding on nectar and pollen in flowers, pollen grains stick to the fur of the flying-foxes. Some pollen is eaten during grooming, but some is carried on the fur to other flowers to fertilise the ovules which then develop into seeds. This pollen may be carried for very long distances (up to 100 km in one night) and across cleared land, which provides an essential genetic link between fragmented patches of native vegetation. Other pollinators, such as birds, bees (including native stingless bees), moths, butterflies, wasps, flies, beetles, other small mammals such as gliders and the wind, operate over much smaller areas.

Through pollination and seed dispersal, flying-foxes help to provide habitat for other flora and fauna species and also help to sustain Australia’s hardwood timber, honey and native plant industries. But to be effective in this role, flying-foxes need to be in large numbers.

(I tried highlighting the important bits, but it ended up being the whole thing).

Thanks Sinner, for the first intelligent post on this thread in support of flying foxes.
I completely agree with the researchers - flying foxes do indeed play an important role in nature, as do just about every other living creature. That's why I made it clear in an earlier post that I had no wish to see the extermination of every flying fox, shark, snake etc - they all have their role to play in balancing our ecosystems.

But this debate is not about whether flying foxes play any useful role - it's about whether their numbers should be reduced when they start causing havoc to agricultural crops, destroying public recreation areas, invading kids playgrounds and forcing the kids out, and posing serious health risks.

So I'll stick with my earlier statement that it's pure unadulterated stupidity to say that humans should never cull flying foxes that are in plague numbers and are destroying trees and crops, making recreation areas unusable, and posing serious health risks via the deadly Hendra virus.

 

[sinner]

So I'll stick with my earlier statement that it's pure unadulterated stupidity to say that humans should never cull flying foxes that are in plague numbers and are destroying trees and crops, making recreation areas unusable, and posing serious health risks via the deadly Hendra virus.

Flying fox permanent colonies are the fault of humans. Flying foxes have been completely nomadic for literally millenia.

Do you get it? They like to travel. They are only stuck where they are because you wanted your quarter acre with landscaped native garden and water feature and a nice view of the "naturescape" or whatever BS it is real estate agents are using these days.

Plague is rubbish. These animals are listed as vulnerable to extinction.

"MYTH:
Flying-foxes are in “plague” numbers. Because flying-foxes are colonial animals – living together in roosts and flying out together at dusk for feeding – they give the impression of existing in very large numbers. But two species are listed as threatened because their numbers have declined so much. Flying-foxes need high rates of survival to maintain their populations. They cannot breed up quickly, as a female can only have one young a year. This is the exact opposite of what is implied
by ‘plague’."

As for the Hendra virus, I already posted 1 point on that and here is what the EPA has to say about Hendra+bats:

Environmental Protection Agency spokesman Craig Walker says there are no easy solutions.

"We can move them away from a location but we can't guarantee the location to which we move them is not going to be worse than where they are now," he said.

Mr Walker says the species has been know to carry the Hendra virus, but the risk is extremely low.

 

[Sdajii]

Sinner: As I said, I like the foxes, I wouldn't want them wiped out. That doesn't mean I see any reason for them to have unnaturally high population levels which exist by feeding on crops. We aren't doing natural forests any favours by spreading the seeds of crop fruits around, are we now?

If you play the endangered card with flying foxes it's difficult to take you seriously.

I didn't say "Oh my god, the flying foxes are coming, we're all going to die of horrible diseases", but there does remain some health risk if flying foxes are defecating on our crops, swimming pools, playgrounds, etc. If a sick flying fox is wandering around on the ground where children play, they are likely to go over, pat it, etc, it's likely to bite and scratch, and while it's not going to cause an ebola outbreak, I'd rather not have kids exposed to them like that.

You've thrown in some other red herrings. I didn't say anything about the best methods to use in moving or culling, so I don't need a lecture about particular methods which don't work. I won't address your whole post, I see little point. There's clearly a lot of emotion in your tone, and you seem unlikely to respond to reason, so, if you want to entirely leave them all alone, play down their risks, ignore their economic damage and pretend that the only management option is to completely wipe them out (which presumably you think if you're lecturing me about their ecological role), I can't talk you out of it.