Smurf,1. Australia in 2007 seems to be all about the almighty Dollar. Votes are bought with the promise of cheap credit and more cuts to public services or a boost to the corporate bottom line.
2. Meanwhile our basic sense of justice and what is right gets thrown overboard.
3. If the facts don't suit then just make them up.
4. It didn't used to be this way and
5. it need not be now.
interesting Wayne - I've only been investing for a year, so never thought of plotting morals vs "booms" before. But ties right in with what I heard ex Labour Minister John Button say on ABC radio recently - that things are ok at the moment during good times - but workers will need much much more protection if things go downhillOver my lifetime I have seen that booms are only good for the hip pocket... and 'king lousy for everything else.
Who knows.
Is the "Truth" ever known in these circumstances?
From who's involved to the evidence---whats acceptable and whats not.
Clever arguement can supress fact.
You can be innocent and judged guilty or Guilty and argued innocent!
Interesting responses - thanks people.
Tech's (above) most closely expresses my own feelings.
Watching Dr Haneef interviewed this evening on "60 Minutes" produced the image of a very gentle person, who was very happy to be free and going home to his family.
I've been asking myself how I'd react were I in a situation similar to Dr Haneef: e.g. going about my normal boring life and suddenly arrested by the AFP and thrown into jail. Charged with offences which I could never have conceived of in my wildest imaginings. What would be my response?
Total and absolute outrage!!! Not quiet patience and finally gratitude to be getting on a plane out of here.
Now this could be just a reflection of different cultures and different personality types and I'm not in any way suggesting Dr Haneef is at all involved in terrorism, but wouldn't you be threatening to sue the Australian government or make some sort of gesture to show how seriously you regard the wrongful arrest if it were the case?
Just to be so passive about it all seems unusual. But then perhaps being locked up for a few weeks removes the basic impetus to fight back?
Quite apart from Dr Haneef's reaction, I simply cannot see how Mick Keelty and Damien Bugg don't have a considerable case to answer for the charges being brought in the first place. The fact that the charges have been dropped indicates simply - as they have said - that they don't believe there is sufficient evidence for the charge to be proved beyond doubt in court.
That is quite different from someone being proved innocent.
That being the case, the charge should never have been laid in the first place. A monumental stuff-up by these two men which has definitely lowered my confidence in their capacity to care for the security of the country.
As far as political interference is concerned, if this has in fact occurred (and I'm not at all sure that it has), then both these gentlemen have yet another case to answer. They are charged with acting impartially and without political interference. I'd support the growing call for an official enquiry into the whole messy affair.
I've been asking myself how I'd react were I in a situation similar to Dr Haneef: e.g. going about my normal boring life and suddenly arrested by the AFP and thrown into jail. Charged with offences which I could never have conceived of in my wildest imaginings. What would be my response?
Total and absolute outrage!!! Not quiet patience and finally gratitude to be getting on a plane out of here.
Now this could be just a reflection of different cultures and different personality types and I'm not in any way suggesting Dr Haneef is at all involved in terrorism, but wouldn't you be threatening to sue the Australian government or make some sort of gesture to show how seriously you regard the wrongful arrest if it were the case?
Just to be so passive about it all seems unusual. But then perhaps being locked up for a few weeks removes the basic impetus to fight back?
Interesting responses - thanks people.
Tech's (above) most closely expresses my own feelings.
Watching Dr Haneef interviewed this evening on "60 Minutes" produced the image of a very gentle person, who was very happy to be free and going home to his family.
yep critical, - likewise the gravity of the potential insult.Dignity in public is very important.
Interesting responses - thanks people.
Tech's (above) most closely expresses my own feelings.
Watching Dr Haneef interviewed this evening on "60 Minutes" produced the image of a very gentle person, who was very happy to be free and going home to his family.
I've been asking myself how I'd react were I in a situation similar to Dr Haneef: e.g. going about my normal boring life and suddenly arrested by the AFP and thrown into jail. Charged with offences which I could never have conceived of in my wildest imaginings. What would be my response?
Total and absolute outrage!!! Not quiet patience and finally gratitude to be getting on a plane out of here.
Now this could be just a reflection of different cultures and different personality types and I'm not in any way suggesting Dr Haneef is at all involved in terrorism, but wouldn't you be threatening to sue the Australian government or make some sort of gesture to show how seriously you regard the wrongful arrest if it were the case?
Just to be so passive about it all seems unusual. But then perhaps being locked up for a few weeks removes the basic impetus to fight back?
Quite apart from Dr Haneef's reaction, I simply cannot see how Mick Keelty and Damien Bugg don't have a considerable case to answer for the charges being brought in the first place. The fact that the charges have been dropped indicates simply - as they have said - that they don't believe there is sufficient evidence for the charge to be proved beyond doubt in court.
That is quite different from someone being proved innocent.
That being the case, the charge should never have been laid in the first place. A monumental stuff-up by these two men which has definitely lowered my confidence in their capacity to care for the security of the country.
As far as political interference is concerned, if this has in fact occurred (and I'm not at all sure that it has), then both these gentlemen have yet another case to answer. They are charged with acting impartially and without political interference. I'd support the growing call for an official enquiry into the whole messy affair.
Okay..the following rant isn't just about the police, as I think the problem should be looked at in the bigger picture:
This whole affair has disgusted me. I feel sorry for the Australian citizens in that a great nation seems now to be a politically directionless puppet that has its strings pulled by the US.
The last time I visited Australia (1995), this country had an obvious identity of its own. Today, it seems as though it has an identity crisis eg. media, police.
I left the UK last October thinking that we were following America's lead. However, this is nothing compared to Australia. At least the average Brit has a good winge about Britain being influenced by the 'Yanks'. Here, the average Ozzie seems to be confused as to what patriotism actually means.
Will the real Australia please stand up?
I also disagree to a certain extent - if it went on for much longer ( after major errors were admitted) it would have been ridiculous, but at least they were fairly quick to admit said errors.I disagree entirely.
I don't care if it takes 6 months for the AFP to look into someone's case before dropping charges relating to terrorist activities. This stance won't make me popular with conspiracy theory, tree hugging, Keating worshipping civil libertarians here at ASF. They get some wrong, they get some right, as in every case, in every legal system in the western world.
I'm with Tech - who knows the real truth?....but I'm not going to shoot down the AFP nor the Govt for trying to keep this country a safe place. Does that make me uneducated, brainwashed, naive and racist? Doubtless many here would say ..DAMN RIGHT.
guess you got 2 right and 2 wrong mateThey get some wrong, they get some right
Does that make me uneducated, brainwashed, naive and racist? Doubtless many here would say ..DAMN RIGHT.
And if it were you or a loved one what was being held indefinately without charge and without contact with the outside world?I don't care if it takes 6 months for the AFP to look into someone's case before dropping charges relating to terrorist activities.
Good Post Bushman.None of those. I would say entitled to your own opinion as we all are.
There was a poem that I read at university by a Catholic priest in Germany during the Second World War that has always stuck with me.
'First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists'
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.'
Pastor Martin Niemöller
I think the good pastor ended up in one of the labour camps when the National Socialists decided that Catholicism was no longer to be tolerated in 1940's Germany. Now I am in no way saying that anything in modern day Australia is anything like the Third Reich. That would be absurd and disrespectful to those who suffered worse than any of us ever will in the course of that terrible human tradgedy. I only quote the poem as it sums up how I feel about accepting the status quo when I see a government whose autocratic powers seemingly increase by the day.
I cannot help but feel concerned when there seems to be a constant focus on 'us' and 'them', 'border protection', 'immigration detention' and the like. It's divisive and conducive to an erosion of civil rights. I especially do not like the terrorism laws and the lack of disclosure required from the government in these cases in the interest of 'national security'. I mean what does that euphimism mean?
That's just me. Does that make me a tree hugging, civil libertarian. Sure does. We are all entitled to our political views and the coming election will be where we voice them.
I will add that it is most certainly is a difficult and complex issue.
Absolutely agreed although I'm thinking more in terms of the financial markets than politics.All of the indicators are pointing towards another major "Event" being perpetrated in the not to distant future. These "Events" always seem to coincide with poor popularity polls, and we currently have Howard and Bush drowning under a Tidal Wave of indignation.
If people are frightened then one thing is certain. The terrorists have won.
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