Elon Musk

[JohnDe]

It's only his "responsibility" if Elon is a micro manager (pretending to be a CEO) who does not trust his managers on the factory floor to do their job. Is he going to floor walk his giga factory in Fremont, then fly to China the next day to do the same? TESLA is a team effort, not a one man show.

If Tesla had failed or was failing I could understand your point of view. However, since Elon Musk was one of the founding members of Tesla and showed the world that EVs can be sold successfully and at competitive prices to comparable ICEV, I'll take your comments as misinformed.

Elon Musk was walking the floor when Tesla's firs EV, the Roadster, was struggling to assembled. He was their when the Model S was being built and then the MX a M3 and MY, each one a proven success. And yes, with a team and a team leader.

Since you know nothing about my company or the culture there, you're in no position to make such comments.

Excuse me, are you for real? You've been, and still are, commenting on a company that you "know nothing about". And you tell me that I'm in no position to comment on your company? Wow.

I reiterate, the directive by Musk to be in the office 40+ hours a week is not about all of his workers being their most productive in that environment. If you have ever worked in such a sweat shop culture you would know how unpleasant it is to work for a micromanaging control freak on an ego driven power trip.

Hahaha, their you go again. Did you forget your previous comment? "Since you know nothing about my company or the culture there, you're in no position to make such comments." You know nothing about me, an you presume that you do.

No, it is not just about " all of his workers being their most productive", it's also about building a team environment, showing some form of equality between employees, getting the maximum inventiveness from all, being at the right place at the right time when a lightbulb moment happens, and so on.

Literally thousands of "ground breaking companies" allow or even now prefer remote working for certain roles to save money and provide an improved work/life balance.

I'm sure there are a few. Apple is one, but even they have recently changed their rules about working from home, they are also struggling to come up with new and ground breaking products.

Post a list of these "ground breaking companies" that you mention. the ones that are changing the world by manufacturing something that improves the world.

An example of that "animal farm" you're referring to would be a factory floor worker at Tesla.

I'm wondering whether you read the book, or watched the cartoon. It was the pigs that convinced the workers that they were being hard done by and to rebel, and then the pigs became the unseen, the ones that got paid the highest and worked in the comfort of their homes while the rest toiled outside.

 

[Value Collector]

I work with my team "directly", conference with them regularly and they are dispersed in other countries and cities. Face to face, in person meetings and activities do matter in certain professions and situations no doubt, sales and manufacturing in particular.

I do of course realize that Elon is the subject of hero worship and many idolize him for being a visionary in the EV space. For them, Elon is a tech god to be revered so they become advocates and apologists for everything he says and does. While I acknowledge his visionary genius, presentation and marketing skills, it's the engineers and technicians that design and innovate at companies like Tesla that are the heroes to me. They deliver the vision on Elon's whiteboard sketches.

The directive to be in the office 40+ hours a week is not about all of his workers being their most productive in that environment. The "great resignation" is happening in large part due to the attitudes of managers like Musk toward remote work. No doubt many have and will leave Tesla for this very reason.

If you boss is happy for you to work that way, that’s fine.

But if Elon feels the company will be more productive with the designers, engineers etc being in the physical office then that’s his call, he is either right or wrong and the company will either prosper or suffer, I have no idea why this is news worthy though.

 

[JohnDe]

I'm a great believer in the concept of the Water Cooler, where informal contact allows ideas to flourish.

Some think that's old fashioned and no longer relevant. I'm with you on his one, face to face interaction brings out the most inventiveness.

 

[JohnDe]

If you boss is happy for you to work that way, that’s fine.

But if Elon feels the company will be more productive with the designers, engineers etc being in the physical office then that’s his call, he is either right or wrong and the company will either prosper or suffer, I have no idea why this is news worthy though.

Chipping away at credibility. It is usually how your competitor, enemies and the jealous types try to bring you down.

 

[Trader X]

...since Elon Musk was one of the founding members of Tesla and showed the world that EVs can be sold successfully and at competitive prices to comparable ICEV...

EVs sold at competitive prices? Compared with what, other EVs? Even with all the public money in the form of subsidies thrown at Tesla, their cars have until recently been affordable and then only to the minority of the financially well off in the U.S. and elsewhere. Musk did not invent the EV, rather he saw an opportunity to exploit a market segment abandoned and ignored by the majors.

No, it is not just about " all of his workers being their most productive", it's also about building a team environment, showing some form of equality between employees, getting the maximum inventiveness from all, being at the right place at the right time when a lightbulb moment happens, and so on.

Such rhetorical nonsense demonstrates your office cubicle mindset (like Musk's) is clearly mired in outdated work practices while totally ignoring advances in workplace collaboration tools that actually enhance the equality of and communication between employees. That "water cooler" was long ago made redundant by virtual conferencing.

You frequently demonstrate little objectivity when discussing anything Musk and Tesla. Being a fervent apologist for and advocate of Musk at every turn exposes your extreme bias on this subject. Is there anything Musk does or says that you don't agree with or endorse, does Musk deserve such devotion? Musk doesn't deserve such infallible hero status and unquestioning defense. He is a fallible human being and awkward pronouncements such as his 40hr edict is an example of this.

 

[Value Collector]

EVs sold at competitive prices? Compared with what, other EVs? Even with all the public money in the form of subsidies thrown at Tesla, their cars have until recently been affordable and then only to the minority of the financially well off in the U.S. and elsewhere. Musk did not invent the EV, rather he saw an opportunity to exploit a market segment abandoned and ignored by the majors.


Such rhetorical nonsense demonstrates your office cubicle mindset (like Musk's) is clearly mired in outdated work practices while totally ignoring advances in workplace collaboration tools that actually enhance the equality of and communication between employees. That "water cooler" was long ago made redundant by virtual conferencing.

You frequently demonstrate little objectivity when discussing anything Musk and Tesla. Being a fervent apologist for and advocate of Musk at every turn exposes your extreme bias on this subject. Is there anything Musk does or says that you don't agree with or endorse, does Musk deserve such devotion? Musk doesn't deserve such infallible hero status and unquestioning defense. He is a fallible human being and awkward pronouncements such as his 40hr edict is an example of this.

If you look at total cost of ownership, Teslas are way lower cost of ownership than any other ICE car in their classes.

 

[Trader X]

If you look at total cost of ownership, Teslas are way lower cost of ownership than any other ICE car in their classes.

Does EV TCO recover the price difference with ICE cars over the typical ownership period of a car? What about EV vs Hybrid TCO comparison and price difference recovery period? The closer the entry price of EVs get to ICE and Hybrid the more compelling the ownership proposition becomes. In less than a decade it won't matter anyway because a combination of legislation and the shift to EV only production by many manufacturers will mean that if you want to buy an ICE car it will more likely be a used one.

 

[JohnDe]

EVs sold at competitive prices? Compared with what, other EVs? Even with all the public money in the form of subsidies thrown at Tesla, their cars have until recently been affordable and then only to the minority of the financially well off in the U.S. and elsewhere. Musk did not invent the EV, rather he saw an opportunity to exploit a market segment abandoned and ignored by the majors.

Before there was Tesla, there was the Prius Hybrid and the EV Nissan Leaf (few others not worth mentioning). Both basic cars sold at a premium price. The Leaf had a true range of about 110km.

Then came Tesla, a couple of guys had an idea to improve the environment, one was a battery wizard. They put together a EV and started to show the world, they contacted entrepreneurs to help financially back their enterprise but not many were keen. One was Elon Musk, he like the idea but was concerned about the viability. The dream team worked on his fascination of future tech. Elon was sold and he came, with bigger ideas and a plan to ensure the success of this new venture that included building an affordable EV with a charging network.

Together they put together a team of engineers, designers, software techs and created the Roadster. An expensive EV sports car aimed at people with a lot of disposable income that wanted to help change the world, by purchasing the extremely pricey Roadster to help fund the next project - a more affordable EV. This needed to be done in steps because there was no mass production of the parts required to keep costs down.

The Model S was produced, a high end saloon that was more practical than the Roadster, and at a price equivalent to high end Mercedes, BMW, Cadillac and equivalents.

Sales took off, more money in the bank to help develop the Tesla teams dream - an EV for the masses.

The Model X came next, aimed at the Range Rover driving market. Another success and more dollars in the bank.

And then the Model 3 came out, another step closer to an affordable EV priced to compete against the luxury entry level BMW's and Mercedes. An EV that had enough range that allowed owners to drive into the country side, and a charging network that allowed them to get back home.

There is more to this story, it goes back many years and the correct information is readily available if someone was willing to read with an open mind.

Such rhetorical nonsense demonstrates your office cubicle mindset (like Musk's) is clearly mired in outdated work practices while totally ignoring advances in workplace collaboration tools that actually enhance the equality of and communication between employees. That "water cooler" was long ago made redundant by virtual conferencing.

It appears that you don't like to do what you preach "Since you know nothing about my company or the culture there, you're in no position to make such comments."

What do you know about the Tesla operations and their work formula?

You frequently demonstrate little objectivity when discussing anything Musk and Tesla. Being a fervent apologist for and advocate of Musk at every turn exposes your extreme bias on this subject. Is there anything Musk does or says that you don't agree with or endorse, does Musk deserve such devotion? Musk doesn't deserve such infallible hero status and unquestioning defense. He is a fallible human being and awkward pronouncements such as his 40hr edict is an example of this.

I do believe in what Musk and Tesla are doing but wouldn't go as far as saying that I'm bias. There was a time when I had no time for Elon Musk, and I thought that Tesla was a con that had sucked in weirdos willing to pay ridiculous amounts for Tesla shares.

A time came when I decided to find out why Tesla prices continued to grow and people kept buying an EV when there were much cheaper ICEVs. I read, I researched, but not just on Elon, I found out about the beginnings of Tesla and its crew.

Elon is no angel, but who is?

Instead of reading news headlines, I suggest that you read more in-depth reports. A easy start is the book Power Play: Elon Musk, Tesla, and the Bet of the Century. the author is no Elon fan boy, actually Elon didn't rate it very highly.

 

[Trader X]

What do you know about the Tesla operations and their work formula?

Misdirection, I was responding to your claims about the virtues of the Tesla workplace as you described it. I don't claim to have inside knowledge of Tesla operations and never have.

Thanks for the historical overview which I was already aware of. You conveniently exclude the huge role government subsides played, and continue to, in Tesla's success story. To Elon's credit, he has been very clever in the way he has convinced governments to subsidize his business expansion.

Instead of reading news headlines, I suggest that you read more in-depth reports....

I frequently read in-depth reports on Tesla as an active investor. More so about their energy business since that's where future profit growth is most promising. I simply don't have an interest in reading books about Elon's adventures. I will leave that to others who think reading about his life experience can provide useful information or entertainment.

 

[JohnDe]

Misdirection, I was responding to your claims about the virtues of the Tesla workplace as you described it. I don't claim to have inside knowledge of Tesla operations and never have.

If you know nothing about the operations of Tesla, how can you make any comment after scolding me with the comment "Since you know nothing about my company or the culture there, you're in no position to make such comments."

Thanks for the historical overview which I was already aware of. You conveniently exclude the huge role government subsides played, and continue to, in Tesla's success story. To Elon's credit, he has been very clever in the way he has convinced governments to subsidize his business expansion.

Do you now? You sound more and more like an account rather than someone that can create a thriving busines against the odds, while industry experts call it a doomed adventure.

I frequently read in-depth reports on Tesla as an active investor. More so about their energy business since that's where future profit growth is most promising. I simply don't have an interest in reading books about Elon's adventures. I will leave that to others who think reading about his life experience can provide useful information or entertainment.

An open mind is a wonder to behold. The book is not about Elon's adventure, it is more about Tesla's adventure with a sprinkling of its founders.

Tesla would not be here today if it were not for Elon Musk's drive and determination. Without Tesla the EV market would not be taking off like it is at the moment.

'The spirit of envy can destroy; it can never build.'

 

[Value Collector]

Does EV TCO recover the price difference with ICE cars over the typical ownership period of a car? What about EV vs Hybrid TCO comparison and price difference recovery period? The closer the entry price of EVs get to ICE and Hybrid the more compelling the ownership proposition becomes. In less than a decade it won't matter anyway because a combination of legislation and the shift to EV only production by many manufacturers will mean that if you want to buy an ICE car it will more likely be a used one.

Based on my Math, over the life of my Tesla Model 3, it’s fuel and maintenance costs should be about $70,000 dollars less than running a similar size pure ICE car, so paying an extra few thousand for an EV definitely makes sense.

I haven’t run the numbers on Hybrids, but with a Hybrid you will have lower fuel costs than an ICE, but still higher fuel and maintenance than an EV, So I guess a Hybrid will be some where in the middle of ICE and EV.

 

[Trader X]

If you know nothing about the operations of Tesla, how can you make any comment

Like I said, I was responding to your comments on the virtues of the Tesla workplace which you either fail to understand or simply ignore to make a moot point.

Do you now?

Yeah I do you condescending smart ar$e. I use to live in Fremont so have always had an interest in Tesla's evolution.

I don't envy Musk, I respect what he has achieved and wish him and his company continued success. I am surprised you care at all about other "founders" as you are so enamored with everything Musk, I simply don't idolize him as you do.

Tesla would not be here today if it were not for Elon Musk's drive and determination.

Such an inane observation would apply the thousands of other entrepreneurs. Just more Elon worship.

Since you have descended into mockery and pejorative phrasing instead of engaging in measured debate, time to move on.

 

[JohnDe]

Like I said, I was responding to your comments on the virtues of the Tesla workplace which you either fail to understand or simply ignore to make a moot point.

No you weren't.

You were stating your thoughts on my comment "Sounds exactly like the type of work that can easily be done over zoom and away from an office".

Which came about when Value Collector said: "There is a lot to be said about being on site and working with your team directly" and you answered "I work with my team "directly", conference with them regularly and they are dispersed in other countries and cities."

I just wanted to see how your job experience compared with manufacturing and development. Your answer to me "SME business software solutions, design and engineering" indicated that your industry can easily accommodate working from home.

I actually thought your comment quite rude and a form of deflection - "Since you know nothing about my company or the culture there, you're in no position to make such comments."

Yeah I do you condescending smart ar$e. I use to live in Fremont so have always had an interest in Tesla's evolution.

Now your getting nasty and a show off all at once. Does living in a place always make you an expert of the businesses in the area?

I don't envy Musk, I respect what he has achieved and wish him and his company continued success. I am surprised you care at all about other "founders" as you are so enamored with everything Musk, I simply don't idolize him as you do.


Such an inane observation would apply the thousands of other entrepreneurs. Just more Elon worship.

Since you have descended into mockery and pejorative phrasing instead of engaging in measured debate, time to move on.

I mock no one, though I do stand up against people that are abusive and like to demean someone for no other reason than a media report and doing their job.

Thanks for the interesting debate, you can now move on with a little more knowledge of Tesla

 

[Trader X]

Thanks for the interesting debate, you can now move on with a little more knowledge of Tesla

An arrogant assumption, you did not add more to my knowledge of Tesla just badgered me for taking issue with Elon's edict and your continued biased advocacy of everything Tesla. Interesting debate? It was a total waste of time and energy trying to debate with a fanboy, thanks for the reminder.

 

[moXJO]

Some think that's old fashioned and no longer relevant. I'm with you on his one, face to face interaction brings out the most inventiveness.

It's not old fashioned. But it is "Boss logic".
From the perspective of being a boss, I absolutely want employees at work/office.

However the benefits of working from home from the employees perspective is the opposite.

The "great resignation" came about when the cycle of turning up to work was broken. People realised how much they hate the grind. Low unemployment gave a lot of choice.

But don't worry bosses. Recession will quickly sort that out.

 

[JohnDe]

An arrogant assumption, you did not add more to my knowledge of Tesla just badgered me for taking issue with Elon's edict and your continued biased advocacy of everything Tesla. Interesting debate? It was a total waste of time and energy trying to debate with a fanboy, thanks for the reminder.

 

[JohnDe]

It's not old fashioned. But it is "Boss logic".
From the perspective of being a boss, I absolutely want employees at work/office.

However the benefits of working from home from the employees perspective is the opposite.

The "great resignation" came about when the cycle of turning up to work was broken. People realised how much they hate the grind. Low unemployment gave a lot of choice.

But don't worry bosses. Recession will quickly sort that out.

Agreed.

The socialist (or is that communists) are multiplying.

 

[moXJO]

Agreed.

The socialist (or is that communists) are multiplying.

I'm sure a historian recently said that one reason Rome fell was because they got lazy. Something about "prosperity making them weak".
Sure as hell makes you wonder if we want a repeat.

 

[Trader X]

It's not old fashioned. But it is "Boss logic".
From the perspective of being a boss, I absolutely want employees at work/office.

However the benefits of working from home from the employees perspective is the opposite.

The "great resignation" came about when the cycle of turning up to work was broken. People realised how much they hate the grind. Low unemployment gave a lot of choice.

But don't worry bosses. Recession will quickly sort that out.

In the case of the company I work for, (2000+ employees), working from the office is encouraged rather than compelled. Management is more concerned about delivering results on projects, on schedule than with all seats filled in the new office on any given day. Where you work to deliver these results is mostly irrelevant to them now. It's a paradigm shift and such flexible workplace arrangements will be taken into consideration by many job applicants going forward. I am quite certain that policies on flexible work will have a significant impact on the allocation of commercial office space, driving down costs.

The grind is mostly about the commute and noisy workplace rather than the work itself. A recession would shift the power balance but the flexible workplace is here to stay.

 

[moXJO]

In the case of the company I work for, (2000+ employees), working from the office is encouraged rather than compelled. Management is more concerned about delivering results on projects, on schedule than with all seats filled in the new office on any given day. Where you work to deliver these results is mostly irrelevant to them now. It's a paradigm shift and such flexible workplace arrangements will be taken into consideration by many job applicants going forward. I am quite certain that policies on flexible work will have a significant impact on the allocation of commercial office space, driving down costs.

The grind is mostly about the commute and noisy workplace rather than the work itself. A recession would shift the power balance but the flexible workplace is here to stay.

Be interesting to see where it is in a couple years time. Perhaps they are trying to shift workers into contractor roles. Less rent, less insurance, less disagreement and hr.

People in their homes for the majority of the time will definitely change spending habits.
City lunches will be a thing of the past.