Electric cars?

[Chronos-Plutus]

We are already doing that to produce the 6KWH of electricity we need to refine each gallon of gasoline we produce. (I really think you are not understanding the point here)

meanwhile I charge my car at home using my solar panels directly.

I have given you figures for the USA; present yours, if you think I am wrong!

 

[Value Collector]

I have given you figures for the USA; present yours, if you think I am wrong!

your figures are wrong, you assume an electric car and gasoline powered car use the same amount of BTUs per mile, this is far from true.

Also, you are only counting the BTUs in the gasoline itself, you haven’t allowed for the fact that to make a gallon of gasoline you need to consume 6KWH of electricity which could be used to charge cars directly.

These two facts alone completely blow your figures out of the water,

 

[Chronos-Plutus]

your figures are wrong, you assume an electric car and gasoline powered car use the same amount of BTUs per mile, this is far from true.

Also, you are only counting the BTUs in the gasoline itself, you haven’t allowed for the fact that to make a gallon of gasoline you need to consume 6KWH of electricity which could be used to charge cars directly.

These two facts alone completely blow your figures out of the water,

OK; so we are going to spend the next 24 hours formulating a precise figure?

Who is going to pay me to do this?

We are still talking 10s of trillions of dollars with massive assets that will be stranded in the USA.

 

[Chronos-Plutus]

your figures are wrong, you assume an electric car and gasoline powered car use the same amount of BTUs per mile, this is far from true.

Also, you are only counting the BTUs in the gasoline itself, you haven’t allowed for the fact that to make a gallon of gasoline you need to consume 6KWH of electricity which could be used to charge cars directly.

These two facts alone completely blow your figures out of the water,

You certainly aren't an academic!

An academic would have the decency to at least put forward their own figures, if they disagreed!

 

[Value Collector]

You certainly aren't an academic!

An academic would have the decency to at least put forward their own figures, if they disagreed!

I did give you figures, And I provided a link.

I said for every gallon of gasoline that gets made, 6kwh of electricity is used, and that electricity alone is nearly enough to get an electric car the same distance as the gallon of gasoline without requiring the actual gasoline.

do you understand that refining oil consumes a lot of electricity? So existing Petrol cars are already consuming nearly as much electricity As it would take to charge electric cars.

so it’s not like we need ship loads of extra capacity build over night.

——————

The other the point you are missing is that from “Well to wheels” petrol cars use about 5 times the amount of energy as Electric cars, So your assumption that we would need to install additional electricity capacity equal to the BTUs of petrol cars is way off, especially as I explained a chunk of that energy Used by petrol cars is actually electricity consumed in the refining process.

So when you fill up your petrol car you are not just consuming oil, you are also consuming a large chunk of electricity, so if you switched to an electric car it won’t require that much more electricity than you are already indirectly using to power your petrol car.

We are still talking 10s of trillions of dollars with massive assets that will be stranded in the USA.

The USA hasn’t built a new refinery since the 1970’s, so their assets have had a good run.

And as I said it won’t happen over night it will be a long process and they can still refine jet fuel and other products, hell they can even install some oil burning electric generators and send some electricity to the grid if we really need more capacity and it would still be a lot cleaner than powering combustion engine cars, because as I explained electric cars require 5 times less energy.

 

[Value Collector]

Here is an interesting article explaining some of the facts I have mentioned.

“In fact, their well to wheel calculations show that to drive 1km in an average petrol vehicle uses 1.36kWh/km while the average figure for electric cars is just 0.28kWh/km – an energy use figure close to five times less than for petrol cars.”

https://www.energycouncil.com.au/analysis/evs-are-they-really-more-efficient/

 

[Chronos-Plutus]

I did give you figures, And I provided a link.

I said for every gallon of gasoline that gets made, 6kwh of electricity is used, and that electricity alone is nearly enough to get an electric car the same distance as the gallon of gasoline without requiring the actual gasoline.

do you understand that refining oil consumes a lot of electricity? So existing Petrol cars are already consuming nearly as much electricity As it would take to charge electric cars.

so it’s not like we need ship loads of extra capacity build over night.

——————

The other the point you are missing is that from “Well to wheels” petrol cars use about 5 times the amount of energy as Electric cars, So your assumption that we would need to install additional electricity capacity equal to the BTUs of petrol cars is way off, especially as I explained a chunk of that energy Used by petrol cars is actually electricity consumed in the refining process.

So when you fill up your petrol car you are not just consuming oil, you are also consuming a large chunk of electricity, so if you switched to an electric car it won’t require that much more electricity than you are already indirectly using to power your petrol car.




The USA hasn’t built a new refinery since the 1970’s, so their assets have had a good run.

And as I said it won’t happen over night it will be a long process and they can still refine jet fuel and other products, hell they can even install some oil burning electric generators and send some electricity to the grid if we really need more capacity and it would still be a lot cleaner than powering combustion engine cars, because as I explained electric cars require 5 times less energy.

No; I asked you to put forward what additional nameplate capacity is required for 100% EVs in the USA.

 

[Chronos-Plutus]

Here is an interesting article explaining some of the facts I have mentioned.

“In fact, their well to wheel calculations show that to drive 1km in an average petrol vehicle uses 1.36kWh/km while the average figure for electric cars is just 0.28kWh/km – an energy use figure close to five times less than for petrol cars.”

https://www.energycouncil.com.au/analysis/evs-are-they-really-more-efficient/

What is the additional nameplate capacity for 100% EVs in the USA?

Please answer the question.

 

[Smurf1976]

Not to mention we could burn the oil to make electricity rather than refine it into gasoline

I'll keep out of the emotive stuff and simply confirm that direct burn crude oil to electricity, that is without refining the oil, is technically very possible.

Japan and Saudi Arabia have both done it to significant extent in the past.

 

[Chronos-Plutus]

I'll keep out of the emotive stuff and simply confirm that direct burn crude oil to electricity, that is without refining the oil, is technically very possible.

Japan and Saudi Arabia have both done it to significant extent in the past.

I only provided a very rough metric for the USA. I am sure Scomo can ask Dr Finkel to get a team together, to get a much more precise metric for Australia, based on different energy supply scenarios.
Time to get some sleep.
Goodnight Smurf

 

[qldfrog]

I agree with you that it can be done. Not easy though and still an expensive transition, even with our low population. I would start with:

- A large tidal barrage powerplant in North WA, that produces hydrogen.

- Municipal waste will be incinerated to produce electricity.

- Biogas plants that produce methane from human and animal sewage, and green waste.

- Roof-top solar for all houses that are deemed economically feasible.

- Bass Strait integrated hybrid wind and marine turbines.

- Ethanol production in Far Northern Queensland.

A nation that doesn't need to rely on mining for fossil fuels anymore; at a great cost, major energy players onboard, and of course government funding.

Why? That is the questions otherwise self inflicted economic damage in case we had not enough on our plate here?

 

[Value Collector]

I'll keep out of the emotive stuff and simply confirm that direct burn crude oil to electricity, that is without refining the oil, is technically very possible.

Japan and Saudi Arabia have both done it to significant extent in the past.

yep offcourse it is, we used to do it here.

And not only is it possible, but burning 100% of the barrel of oil to generate electricity to power an EV, will drive that EV much further than refining that barrel down to its gasoline components and then using that residual amount of gasoline in a combustion engine to power a car.

 

[Value Collector]

No; I asked you to put forward what additional nameplate capacity is required for 100% EVs in the USA.

If you understand the points I have already raised you would understand that it is not much extra capacity, because

1, a decent chunk of the existing name plate capacity is already being used to power cars indirectly through oil refineries.

2, the grid doesn’t actually use its full name plate capacity for extended periods each day, and cars can be charged during these “offpeak” times.

3, more electricity capacity can be installed pretty quickly, and as I said the crude oil and natural gas used in refining could be quickly diverted into electricity production.

4, the is a big correlation between EV ownership and Solar panel ownership, once you get an EV 90% of people get solar, they go had in hand.

and you would also understand that the process of switching over will be so gradual it’s almost not worth thinking about, the market will just naturally adjust.

 

[Value Collector]

It’s also not just consumers adding solar to their house when they get an EV.

Tesla is adding solar panels to their charging locations, it just makes business sense to produce solar power nearby where you are selling electricity to customers.

 

[over9k]

The sad reality is that only about 4% of the world's surface can make an economic go of renewable energy in its current technological form. Not to say that that won't change, but the green revolution is not going to happen next week. Germany spent two trillion euro's trying to do it and they're now burning not just coal but the worst kind of coal there is for emissions.

 

[SirRumpole]

It’s also not just consumers adding solar to their house when they get an EV.

Tesla is adding solar panels to their charging locations, it just makes business sense to produce solar power nearby where you are selling electricity to customers.

View attachment 105902

I'm surprised that Tesla vehicles don't have solar panels on the bodywork so they can charge when in the sun.

 

[basilio]

I did give you figures, And I provided a link.

I said for every gallon of gasoline that gets made, 6kwh of electricity is used, and that electricity alone is nearly enough to get an electric car the same distance as the gallon of gasoline without requiring the actual gasoline.

do you understand that refining oil consumes a lot of electricity? So existing Petrol cars are already consuming nearly as much electricity As it would take to charge electric cars.

so it’s not like we need ship loads of extra capacity build over night.

——————

The other the point you are missing is that from “Well to wheels” petrol cars use about 5 times the amount of energy as Electric cars, So your assumption that we would need to install additional electricity capacity equal to the BTUs of petrol cars is way off, especially as I explained a chunk of that energy Used by petrol cars is actually electricity consumed in the refining process.

So when you fill up your petrol car you are not just consuming oil, you are also consuming a large chunk of electricity, so if you switched to an electric car it won’t require that much more electricity than you are already indirectly using to power your petrol car.




The USA hasn’t built a new refinery since the 1970’s, so their assets have had a good run.

And as I said it won’t happen over night it will be a long process and they can still refine jet fuel and other products, hell they can even install some oil burning electric generators and send some electricity to the grid if we really need more capacity and it would still be a lot cleaner than powering combustion engine cars, because as I explained electric cars require 5 times less energy.

Good story VC and the use of electricity to power cars is far more efficient than petrol. And certainly re purposing and improving our energy systems to integrate EV transport is doable. It certainly won't need "vast" new power supplies. The serious analysts believe an extra 20% capacity Australia would cover us going EV.

What is interesting is the figure of "6kwh of electricity per gallon of gasoline ". Really ? That analysis has been kicked around many times and it is far more more complex and subtle than any simple figure suggest.

I found an excellent overview from a Chemical engineer. The detail is fascinating and easy to grasp. Well worth a read.

So: Exactly How Much Electricity Does it Take To Produce A Gallon of Gasoline?
First, why do I care what the answer is? And why should you care? A little history may help you understand.

My son Jacob and I took on a project a little over three years ago, to convert my 1975 Triumph Spitfire roadster into a fully electric vehicle, which we call the E-Fire. The project flowed from my personal and professional interests in the transition to renewable energy sources and in reducing the environmental impact of global energy consumption. It was also spurred on by my purchase of our first Prius in 2008. I have driven nothing but Priuses since: I’m fascinated by the seamless way that Toyota managed to integrate the EV drivetrain with the Atkinson cycle gasoline engine. The vehicle not only has exceptional fuel economy, but toxic emissions are also greatly reduced.

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/so-exactly-how-much-electricity-does-take-produce-gallon-paul-martin

 

[Chronos-Plutus]

My math was right but my inputs were wrong, this is it now:

The USA uses 142 billion gallons of motor gasoline a year, which 92% is used for vehicles (https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/gasoline/use-of-gasoline.php)

So that is ~130.64 billion gallons a year/ 365 days a year / 24 hours a day = ~15 million gallons of gasoline an hour.

15 million gallons of gasoline an hour = 1,875 billion BTU an hour

1,875 billion BTU an hour = 549508197 KW used every hour = ~549GW used every hour

549GW per hour x 24 hours a day x 365 days a week = 4809240 GW hours of electricity needed per year.

The Ginna nuclear powerplant has a nameplate capacity of 500MW and produces 4,697,675 MWh a year which is 4700GW/hours per year (https://www.americangeosciences.org...ity-does-typical-nuclear-power-plant-generate).

4809240/4700 = 1023 500MW nuclear powerplants

Which is back to my initial comment of around 500 1GW nuclear reactors.

Cost ~$6 billion per GW = ~$3 Trillion just for the powerplants

These people have it at:

http://euanmearns.com/how-much-more-electricity-do-we-need-to-go-to-100-electric-vehicles/

 

[Chronos-Plutus]

I believe this discussion is now closed for me. My initial comments of ~500 1GW nuclear reactors stands as it is. I have shown how I have come to the figure.

On this note, I take a bow

 

[Value Collector]

My math was right but my inputs were wrong, this is it now:

The USA uses 142 billion gallons of motor gasoline a year, which 92% is used for vehicles (https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/gasoline/use-of-gasoline.php)

So that is ~130.64 billion gallons a year/ 365 days a year / 24 hours a day = ~15 million gallons of gasoline an hour.

15 million gallons of gasoline an hour = 1,875 billion BTU an hour

1,875 billion BTU an hour = 549508197 KW used every hour = ~549GW used every hour

549GW per hour x 24 hours a day x 365 days a week = 4809240 GW hours of electricity needed per year.

The Ginna nuclear powerplant has a nameplate capacity of 500MW and produces 4,697,675 MWh a year which is 4700GW/hours per year (https://www.americangeosciences.org...ity-does-typical-nuclear-power-plant-generate).

4809240/4700 = 1023 500MW nuclear powerplants

Which is back to my initial comment of around 500 1GW nuclear reactors.

Cost ~$6 billion per GW = ~$3 Trillion just for the powerplants

These people have it at:
View attachment 105905
http://euanmearns.com/how-much-more-electricity-do-we-need-to-go-to-100-electric-vehicles/

As far as I can see your calculation is still wrong, you are still working on the same flawed assumptions.

1, You are still assuming EV's use the same amount of energy as Gasoline cars, when infact gasoline cars are only 30% - 40% efficient and EV's are about 85% - 90% efficient. (that would halve your energy requirement straight away)

2, You aren't allowing for the fact that once you stop refining gasoline you will have freed up a lot of electricity capacity that normally goes towards refining that gasoline. (That would cover about at least 50% of the Evs that need charging)

3, you are assuming the grid is already operating at 100% capacity, ignoring the fact that EV's could be charged at off peak times when the grid is only operating at 30% of its full capacity. (that use of the latent capacity would easily charge the bulk of Ev's by itself)

4, Natural growth in Solar by the Ev owners themselves and the charging companies.