Electric cars?

[JohnDe]

And you may be correct, but imagine the wastage in the World , because we haven't standardised on either LHD or RHD, because we haven't standardised on what voltage and frequency is the most efficient for consumer mains, so the same appliances have to be made differently and have different components to suit the various countries. When you travel, you have to take adaptors, because we never even standardised plugs.
Yet here we are at the beginning of the journey, with a brand new device, that is to be made in the hundreds of millions and we are heading down the same track.
It has only been very recently the makers are starting to agree on a common plug.
Yet we never stop telling everyone we are doing this to save the planet.
I wish, IMO as usual we are doing it to maximise our profit and nothing gets in the way of that.

Slowly but surely, some standardisation is coming, it's already happening with charging connections. Tesla is leading the charge due to its number of sales and charging stations.

EVgo announced it would be bringing Tesla compatible connectors (CCS type 2) to over 600 of its US charging stations. Regardless of the other connectors and their compatibility, Tesla’s Supercharger network already features over 20,000 charging stalls at over 2,100 stations around the world.

Most recently, Tesla CEO Elon Musk has shared that the American automaker will begin sharing its EV network with other EVs later in 2021.

Electric vehicle (EV) charging standards and how they differ

A in depth guide explaining the different standards of electric vehicle charging and how they vary from one another at home and in public.

electrek.co

 

[sptrawler]

Slowly but surely, some standardisation will come, it's already happening with charging connections. Tesla is leading the charge due to its number of sales and charging stations.

Electric vehicle (EV) charging standards and how they differ

A in depth guide explaining the different standards of electric vehicle charging and how they vary from one another at home and in public.

electrek.co

Tesla is leading the charge on all fronts and hopefully as I said earlier Musk moves into the battery space, because as I said that is where the real money is one supplier or a very few suppliers, making batteries for the automakers.
Then the auto makers can make the roller skate, which they have been doing for a century and they are good at and the batteries can be developed as a common component, IMO it would help recycling, develop the technology in the most efficient manner and minimise duplication and wastage.
But hey like I said it is only me day dreaming, it is just about time a holistic approach was taken with everything that is developed IMO.
We do have one planet and it does have limited resources and we are going through them at an ever faster rate.
The one thing we can do is slow that process down, by minimising wastage, maximising the efficiency with which we use the resources and reduce the requirement for duplication for duplications sake.
That way, humans might extend the time they have left on the planet, before we end up making it uninhabitable. Jeez and I'm not even a greenie, just a realist.
It isn't the first time this sort of rationalisation happened, in the 1960's Bridgestone made motorcyles as well as motorcyle tyres, when there was a major down turn, the Japanese manufacturers got together and said look this aint working Bridgestone if you stop making motorcycles, we will use your tyres. So Bridgestone did just that, and became OEM supplier for Honda, Suzuki, Yamaha and Kawasaki.
I actually had a Bridgestone motor bike in the early 1970's, as a bush basher. lol

In the early 1960s, the Japanese motorcycle industry took a downturn. Bridgestone's core business of tyre manufacture kept the company secure and they took on engineers from Lilac and Tohatsu when those companies stopped motorcycle production. These engineers were responsible for a new range of motorcycle, initially with the 90 cc BS-90 in 1965. This was followed by the BS-50 and BS-175 in 1965 and the BS-350 in 1967. These machines were powered by state of the art disc valve two strokes which Tohatsu had previously been involved in.[4]

The advanced technical specification resulted in high production costs and a resulting high retail price. The 350 GTR sold in some areas at about the same price as the 650 cc Triumph Bonneville.[9] The high price caused the motorcycles to sell in smaller quantities than other Japanese motorcycles. The other Japanese motorcycle companies again pressurised Bridgestone, this time to either supply them tyres or to manufacture motorcycles but not both.[10] In order to protect its interests supplying tyres to other manufacturers, Bridgestone pulled out of motorcycle manufacturing[6][7] in 1970. The factory space was converted to tyre production.[4]

 

[sptrawler]

GM's new Cadillac E.V

“Milestone” General Motors electric car begins production

The Cadillac Lyriq heralds the beginning of an all-electric future for General Motors.

www.drive.com.au

The Cadillac Lyriq is built on General Motors’ new ‘Ultium’ EV platform, powered by a 255kW/440Nm electric motor on the rear axle.
A 100kWh lithium-ion battery gives an estimated driving range of around 483 kilometres (300 miles).

Deliveries of the Lyriq are expected to begin in the second half of 2022, with a starting price of approximately $US60,000 ($AU80,000).
When asked about the possibility of the Cadillac Lyriq coming to Australia – should a right-hand-drive version or conversion program become available – a representative of General Motors Special Vehicles (GMSV) in Australia told Drive:
"The Cadillac Lyriq is another vehicle in the General Motors line-up that demonstrates our vision of an all-electric future. GM is not making announcements at this stage in relation to additional global markets."

 

[basilio]

Last year an engineering company announced plans to electrify long distance trucking in Australia by using replacement battery packs. The savings on fuel costs make this a very compelling case.

They are still proving the practicalities of the process but they have already opened research on significant improvements in battery technology. I could see this battery company going exceptionally well if/when it proves it's product. (Nice theory . However SP has dropped from $2.05 when this announcement was madem last Nov. to 80.5c today... Bit of a worry.)

Li-S Energy (ASX:LIS) to develop new lithium truck batteries with Janus Electric​

​

This Prime Mover was converted by Janus Electric and is operating with a Janus Electric Motor and exchangeable 600KWh battery pack. Source: Li-S Energy

​

Be the first with the news that moves the market

• Daily Digest
• Weekly Summary
• Li-S Energy (LIS) signs a collaboration agreement with Janus Electric to develop and test a new range of lithium-sulphur and/or lithium metal battery packs
• The packs will be used in exchangeable batteries for trucks that have been converted from diesel to electric energy
• Should testing be successful, Li-S Energy is expected to continue supplying battery packs to Janus as the vehicle maker phases out lithium-ion batteries
• Shares in Li-S Energy are up 4.06 per cent to $2.05 as of 11:36 am AEDT

Li-S Energy (ASX:LIS) to develop new lithium truck batteries with Janus Electric

Li-S Energy (ASX:LIS) has signed a collaboration agreement with Janus Electric to develop and test a new range of lithium sulphur and lithium metal battery packs.

themarketherald.com.au

 

[rederob]

Last year an engineering company announced plans to electrify long distance trucking in Australia by using replacement battery packs. The savings on fuel costs make this a very compelling case.

They are still proving the practicalities of the process but they have already opened research on significant improvements in battery technology. I could see this battery company going exceptionally well if/when it proves it's product. (Nice theory . However SP has dropped from $2.05 when this announcement was madem last Nov. to 80.5c today... Bit of a worry.)

Li-S Energy (ASX:LIS) to develop new lithium truck batteries with Janus Electric​

​

View attachment 139607 This Prime Mover was converted by Janus Electric and is operating with a Janus Electric Motor and exchangeable 600KWh battery pack. Source: Li-S Energy

​

Be the first with the news that moves the market

• Daily Digest
• Weekly Summary
• Li-S Energy (LIS) signs a collaboration agreement with Janus Electric to develop and test a new range of lithium-sulphur and/or lithium metal battery packs
• The packs will be used in exchangeable batteries for trucks that have been converted from diesel to electric energy
• Should testing be successful, Li-S Energy is expected to continue supplying battery packs to Janus as the vehicle maker phases out lithium-ion batteries
• Shares in Li-S Energy are up 4.06 per cent to $2.05 as of 11:36 am AEDT

Li-S Energy (ASX:LIS) to develop new lithium truck batteries with Janus Electric

Li-S Energy (ASX:LIS) has signed a collaboration agreement with Janus Electric to develop and test a new range of lithium sulphur and lithium metal battery packs.

themarketherald.com.au

I haven't done the maths, but back of the envelope I reckon a 600KWh battery would weigh a bit over 2.5 tonnes, which takes away a bit of load capacity.
On the other hand a power equivalent HFCEV's hydrogen fuel "tank" would weigh much less and its extra cost of hydrogen as a fuel would be compensated by the vehicle's additional load capacity. As large transport companies operate from discrete terminals the infrastructure at these sites, and at refilling hubs/nodes along major transport routes, would be easy and relatively cost effective to quickly put in place.
I think hydrogen is going to win out over BEVs for heavy transport in the long run as I literally cannot see battery minerals as meeting the ramp up needs of BEV demand at the present rate which is now more than doubling each year:

 

[rederob]

Sold out: why Australia doesn’t have enough electric vehicles to go around​

Put aside who published the article and read who is commenting:

• “Our biggest issue now is actually attracting supply of electric vehicles, not getting Australians interested in buying them,” says Behyad Jafari, the chief executive of the Electric Vehicle Council.
• Hyundai Australia’s general manager of corporate affairs, Bill Thomas, says the fact that there are not enough EVs available in Australia is mainly due to a lack of incentives to sell the cars here, rather than supply chain issues.

And here's what prospective EV buyers face:

• Matt Holding set an alarm on his phone so he wouldn’t miss out on a limited release of electric vehicles, but by the time he jumped online to buy one they had sold out. In six and a half minutes, all 109 of Hyundai’s electric SUVs had sold – 18,000 Australians had registered their interest. “You’ve just got to keep on trying and get in there straight away, which seems ridiculous when you’re purchasing an $80,000 car,” Holding says of the second time he tried to beat the queue to buy Hyundai’s Ioniq 5.

Here's the corker though:

• The spokesperson (for Angus Taylor) said the government’s modern manufacturing strategy was working to overcome global constraints and strengthen local production.

Should we break the news to the Minister that there is no local production!

 

[Value Collector]

I haven't done the maths, but back of the envelope I reckon a 600KWh battery would weigh a bit over 2.5 tonnes, which takes away a bit of load capacity.
On the other hand a power equivalent HFCEV's hydrogen fuel "tank" would weigh much less and its extra cost of hydrogen as a fuel would be compensated by the vehicle's additional load capacity. As large transport companies operate from discrete terminals the infrastructure at these sites, and at refilling hubs/nodes along major transport routes, would be easy and relatively cost effective to quickly put in place.
I think hydrogen is going to win out over BEVs for heavy transport in the long run as I literally cannot see battery minerals as meeting the ramp up needs of BEV demand at the present rate which is now more than doubling each year:
View attachment 139624

You might save a bit of weight by using a hydrogen truck, but you have to have a whole extra truck on the road to deliver the hydrogen to where you need it.

However with an electric truck operating out of something like a Woolworths distribution centre, it could be charged while loading or unloading, and the not require a special trip to a refill station, and not require special trucks to deliver the fuel.

 

[rederob]

You might save a bit of weight by using a hydrogen truck, but you have to have a whole extra truck on the road to deliver the hydrogen to where you need it.

True, but that "whole extra truck" might carry enough hydrogen to top up over 100 HFCEVs.

However with an electric truck operating out of something like a Woolworths distribution centre, it could be charged while loading or unloading, and the not require a special trip to a refill station, and not require special trucks to deliver the fuel.

Same could apply to an HFCEV if it was thought to be an issue.
However, it will be possible to configure HFCEV fuel "tanks" such that they only ever need refueling at terminal points up to 1000km apart, thereby saving thousands every year by tapping into wholesale hydrogen prices. That will not be possible for long/line haul EVs which will need to recharge multiple times on trips between Sydney and Brisbane, for example.

I could not find anything recent, but this predictor shows the effect of fuel prices:

The advantage of both Battery and Hydrogen will be very stable energy prices which will actually continue to decline with improvements to scale and technology. Hydrogen is likely to be the big winner however, as costs for both electrolysers and grid scale renewable energy continue to decrease, while lithium ternary battery material costs will continue to increase as their raw material markets run out of supply. (LFP batteries are unlikely to be used for heavy vehicles as their lesser energy density means they would add significant extra weight per kilometre travelled.)

 

[sptrawler]

Sold out: why Australia doesn’t have enough electric vehicles to go around​

Put aside who published the article and read who is commenting:

• “Our biggest issue now is actually attracting supply of electric vehicles, not getting Australians interested in buying them,” says Behyad Jafari, the chief executive of the Electric Vehicle Council.
• Hyundai Australia’s general manager of corporate affairs, Bill Thomas, says the fact that there are not enough EVs available in Australia is mainly due to a lack of incentives to sell the cars here, rather than supply chain issues.

And here's what prospective EV buyers face:

• Matt Holding set an alarm on his phone so he wouldn’t miss out on a limited release of electric vehicles, but by the time he jumped online to buy one they had sold out. In six and a half minutes, all 109 of Hyundai’s electric SUVs had sold – 18,000 Australians had registered their interest. “You’ve just got to keep on trying and get in there straight away, which seems ridiculous when you’re purchasing an $80,000 car,” Holding says of the second time he tried to beat the queue to buy Hyundai’s Ioniq 5.

Here's the corker though:

• The spokesperson (for Angus Taylor) said the government’s modern manufacturing strategy was working to overcome global constraints and strengthen local production.

Should we break the news to the Minister that there is no local production!

I thought the State Governments had started giving incentives.

 

[rederob]

I thought the State Governments had started giving incentives.

Some have.
But the issue for manufacturers is which markets provide the better long run options.
As the European market is larger than the US market, and ours is pitifully small by comparison, it's more important to gain an early foothold there to sell millions of cars a year, rather than in Australia where tens of thousands is a good outcome.
In the meantime they can afford to drip feed us with meagre offerings.

 

[sptrawler]

Some have.
But the issue for manufacturers is which markets provide the better long run options.
As the European market is larger than the US market, and ours is pitifully small by comparison, it's more important to gain an early foothold there to sell millions of cars a year, rather than in Australia where tens of thousands is a good outcome.
In the meantime they can afford to drip feed us with meagre offerings.

Which is actually what I said quite a few posts back, the manufacturers are struggling to meet demand in the LHD market, which is far more lucrative.
Jeez I would love an incentive, you know how much stamp duty I'm paying in W.A it is ridiculous and that's a Labor State.

 

[Value Collector]

True, but that "whole extra truck" might carry enough hydrogen to top up over 100 HFCEVs.

Same could apply to an HFCEV if it was thought to be an issue.
However, it will be possible to configure HFCEV fuel "tanks" such that they only ever need refueling at terminal points up to 1000km apart, thereby saving thousands every year by tapping into wholesale hydrogen prices. That will not be possible for long/line haul EVs which will need to recharge multiple times on trips between Sydney and Brisbane, for example.

I could not find anything recent, but this predictor shows the effect of fuel prices:
View attachment 139635
The advantage of both Battery and Hydrogen will be very stable energy prices which will actually continue to decline with improvements to scale and technology. Hydrogen is likely to be the big winner however, as costs for both electrolysers and grid scale renewable energy continue to decrease, while lithium ternary battery material costs will continue to increase as their raw material markets run out of supply. (LFP batteries are unlikely to be used for heavy vehicles as their lesser energy density means they would add significant extra weight per kilometre travelled.)

Most trucks don't need to travel 1000km between points, most are travelling between fixed distribution centres, where the round trip is less than 500km.

Even the long haul inter city trucks can't legally travel 1000km without mandated rest periods that are longer than the required charging times.

 

[Humid]

With all the whiz bang electronics in these new cars does it really matter what side you sit?
I drive my left hook yank tank heaps and it's a floor shift 4 speed to boot!
Garbo trucks are too.....the worse that happens is going to the wrong side after returning from the shop and pretending you did it on purpose...

 

[JohnDe]

With all the whiz bang electronics in these new cars does it really matter what side you sit?
I drive my left hook yank tank heaps and it's a floor shift 4 speed to boot!
Garbo trucks are too.....the worse that happens is going to the wrong side after returning from the shop and pretending you did it on purpose...

Yes.

I drive quiet a few LHD cars and it's not as safe as driving a RHD on our roads.

Road Casualties and Left Hand Drive HGV

A 2009 study4 of road accidents involving left hand drive HGVs found that most of these accidents occur on the
main arterial routes (motorways, A roads and trunk roads) and while this is true for all HGV accidents, it is
even more so for left hand drive ones.
Most of the LHD HGV collisions in this study involved the HGV overtaking or changing lanes. Left-hand drive
HGVs are 3.4 times more likely to be involved in these types of crashes than right-hand drive HGVs.
The study also found that left-hand drive HGV drivers were more likely to be at least partially at fault for the
accidents in which they were involved, and the contributory factor most often assigned to them by the
investigating police officers was ‘failed to look properly’. This was often associated with their vehicle’s blind
spot, which was a factor in 76% of their accidents in this study.

 

[rederob]

Most trucks don't need to travel 1000km between points, most are travelling between fixed distribution centres, where the round trip is less than 500km.

All inter-capital city trips are over 500Km (excluding Canberra).
I realise there are mandatory rest breaks for all drivers, but whereas an HFCEV can utilise wholesale pricing at terminals, an EV would need to recharge/swapover at commercial rates in between.

I was forward thinking when I posted on this because I see counter-trends for Hydrogen and Batteries over the next 5 years. If I were a fleet owner I would be wary of a more likely critical batterial material shortage than a hydrogen shortage. Whereas a large scale move - now, or soon - to batteries could be thwarted, an incremental move to hydrogen will get progressively cheaper and be unconstrained.

 

[basilio]

However, it will be possible to configure HFCEV fuel "tanks" such that they only ever need refueling at terminal points up to 1000km apart, thereby saving thousands every year by tapping into wholesale hydrogen prices. That will not be possible for long/line haul EVs which will need to recharge multiple times on trips between Sydney and Brisbane, for example.

This is not going to be the case with the current Janus electric truck project. Their model is based on swapping the drive train of existing trucks with electric motors and a huge plug in battery pack. There will be a single service centre mid way between Sydney and Brisbane where trucks will swap battery packs. (Obviously similar service centres at each end). The current trial is proceeding using Li-On battery packs.

My recent contribution( 5704 ) to the thread was highlighting the development of Li S batteries and the role of Janus in trialling the units for their trucks. These batteries will carry far more energy and be substantially lighter than Li Ion. Worth checking out on the LIS website. They intend to establish a small commercial operation in March 2022 to produce enough batteries for commercial trials.

App 4D and Interim Financial Report Six Months 31 Dec 2021

Aussie company Janus Electric charges up electric trucks

www.januselectric.com.au

 

[rederob]

This is not going to be the case with the current Janus electric truck project. Their model is based on swapping the drive train of existing trucks with electric motors and a huge plug in battery pack. There will be a single service centre mid way between Sydney and Brisbane where trucks will swap battery packs. (Obviously similar service centres at each end). The current trial is proceeding using Li-On battery packs.

My recent contribution( 5704 ) to the thread was highlighting the development of Li S batteries and the role of Janus in trialling the units for their trucks. These batteries will carry far more energy and be substantially lighter than Li Ion. Worth checking out on the LIS website. They intend to establish a small commercial operation in March 2022 to produce enough batteries for commercial trials.

App 4D and Interim Financial Report Six Months 31 Dec 2021

Aussie company Janus Electric charges up electric trucks

www.januselectric.com.au

I am definitely supportive of battery technologies for all vehicles and so is Elon Musk, as well for heavy transport.
And I like the NIO battery swap idea for cars that is working well in China, but maybe it won't in Australia. An issue for heavy vehicles will be "standardisation".
Nikola is looking at line haul hubs for its HFCEVS, but that infrastructure will not be dedicated to Nikola. Whereas without standardisation the LI-S and Janus Electric partnership may be confined to a niche market.

 

[Value Collector]

With all the whiz bang electronics in these new cars does it really matter what side you sit?
I drive my left hook yank tank heaps and it's a floor shift 4 speed to boot!
Garbo trucks are too.....the worse that happens is going to the wrong side after returning from the shop and pretending you did it on purpose...

The Tesla semi truck has the driver sit in the middle.

 

[Humid]

Yes.

I drive quiet a few LHD cars and it's not as safe as driving a RHD on our roads.

Yeah left hand drive trucks with European drivers.....what could go wrong....

 

[JohnDe]

Yeah left hand drive trucks with European drivers.....what could go wrong....

You could blame the driver, however the study found that the contributing cause of the accidents studied was the blind post that LHD vehicles cause when driven on RHD roads.

You could also say that a HGV has less visibility than a car, even though the driver is sitting up well above normal traffic and usually has larger windows.

Left-hand drive are 3.4 times more likely to be involved in these types of crashes than right-hand drive HGVs.
The study also found that left-hand drive HGV drivers were more likely to be at least partially at fault for the
accidents in which they were involved, and the contributory factor most often assigned to them by the
investigating police officers was ‘failed to look properly’. This was often associated with their vehicle’s blind
spot, which was a factor in 76% of their accidents in this study.

I've driven a lot of LHD cars, they require the driver to be more aware of the surroundings when turning right or merging into the right lane. It is because the car is set up for easy driving on roads that require the car and driver to be on the right side of the road.

Classic cars are a different story because they are only on the road on rare occasions and the driver is extra cautious.

Allowing thousands of everyday driving LHD vehicles onto the roads and people will fall into old habits, even with today's safety features it won't stop someone doing a quick right hand turn, at speed, when they didn't notice the other car in the blind spot. Yes the car safety features can warn the driver and try and stop the collision, but the driver is still the one that has full control, and not all vehicle safety features are the same.