Electric cars?

[JohnDe]

Caravan power usage depends on many things.
Do they run a compressor fridge versus a 3 way evapourator fridge, and what size is it, do they run a 240 Volt inverter for coffee machines or toasters or kettle. Do they have a small electric heater to keep warm, do they have electric hot water heaters, how often do they run their water pump, do they have an onboard microwave or washing machine.

Although I don't constantly monitor them, none of these are static.

Mick

Are you saying that each electrical component in your caravan is running constantly for all 24 hours of the day, nothing cycles, lights don't get turned off for bed?

 

[JohnDe]

Electric vehicles ready to revolutionise the Big Lap​

The answer to the question of when a full battery electric vehicle (BEV) will be capable of taking grey nomads on the Big Lap really has three parts:

1. Can they tour? The short answer is yes.

Electric vehicles ready to revolutionise the Big Lap - The Grey Nomads

electric vehicles, EV, towing, electric big lap, bowser-free big lap, electric charging stations, power, electric cars,

www.thegreynomads.com.au

 

[Value Collector]

Are you saying that each electrical component in your caravan is running constantly for all 24 hours of the day, nothing cycles, lights don't get turned off for bed?

With most of the new pick up truck models coming with power points in the back, I can see a situation where caravans are plugged directly into the back of the vehicle, and the vehicle is plugged into what ever power source you have (eg power point/generator) then the vehicles just takes 100% of available power minus what ever usage happens as equipment switches on and off.

This way it could be drawing a steady load from the power source, and battery charging just slows or speeds up as equipment comes on or off, even if you had to resort to using a generator and Jerry cans, at least the generator can be producing at its most efficient rate, off course you could also utilise solar power etc too.

 

[mullokintyre]

Are you saying that each electrical component in your caravan is running constantly for all 24 hours of the day, nothing cycles, lights don't get turned off for bed?

No I did not say that, what I said is that there is almost always some load on the system, just as the solar panels are not charging at full capacity all the time (indeed for half the 24 hour period they do not charge at all).
Lights are LED theses days, so take almost no power.
The various chargers for phones Ipads consume power, many of my contemporaries sleep with sleep apnea monitors, the list goes on.
However, the fridge cycles, the fans on the diesel heater and igniter cycle, the pump cycles to maintain a fixed line pressure, as well as the myriad of things that are on all the time.
Mick

 

[mullokintyre]

I think you are missing your point here, picking up 50% charge is still alot better than your ranger, which sits at the caravan park not having its diesel tank recharged, the Ev doesn't require more stops, just the timing of the stops changes a bit, and most charging is picked up when you are doing other things like sleeping, eating or peeing.

Think back to your original argument.

You pointed out that the EV had to stop and charge during the trip, which would be "inconvenient", but what you are failing to see is that your ranger would need more stops.

Ranger Stops for 400km trip.

1, Refuel before or at beginning of trip (to get to 100%)
2, Refuel towards end or after trip.
3, maybe another stop for drinks or bathroom.

why do I only need stops for drinks or bathroom with the Ranger?
Do EV's let you pee in the console?

EV stops for 400km trip.

(starts full)
1, Recharge once some where along route during a drinks or bathroom break.
(arrives destination with 50%, charges at destination)

Same thing on return trip, say the Ev leaves with 80% having picked up 30% over night, it charges once on way back, then charges at home.

The Ranger with a full tank normally gets around 10l per 100K, giving a nominal range of 800km.
Towing the van with 17 l per 100k, gives a nominal range of 470km, but no one drives a diesel to empty, so we establish 400 kms as a maximum between fillups.
We have already established that the Rivian EV towing the same van will not get 400 KMS ands still have 50% charge.
Either you use all 100% charge to get 400k's, or you only travel 200ks to have 50% battery left, and even that is being generous.
And as I tried to point out, nine times out of ten we will be stopped overnight where there is no 10 or 15 amp plus for 300 kms.
As to carting a 3.5 kva generator around to charge up batteries when I could just as easily pour it into my cars fuel tank and just keep travelling, i am afraid it makes no sense.
When you have towed a caravan with either an ICE powered vehicle oran EV, then we can talk about some real world experience.
Mick

 

[Value Collector]

why do I only need stops for drinks or bathroom with the Ranger?
Do EV's let you pee in the console?

We already accounted for 1 stop with the EV, you go take a pee while its charges for 15 minutes, Where as you were saying that the Ranger was going to attempt to drive the 400km's without the inconvenience of stopping to refuel, but I am assuming that the passengers will want to stop at least once during that 4 hour drive to pee, so you will need to stop regardless of the range of your car.

What I am pointing out here is that although your truck might be able to do 4 hours driving without refuelling some of your passengers probably won't want too, and will want a pee break, when I drive interstate with my Tesla, you just align the charging and the pee breaks as one stop, there are no inconvenient charging stops, you plug in go pee, grab a drink head back to car and drive away

The Ranger with a full tank normally gets around 10l per 100K, giving a nominal range of 800km.
Towing the van with 17 l per 100k, gives a nominal range of 470km, but no one drives a diesel to empty, so we establish 400 kms as a maximum between fillups.
We have already established that the Rivian EV towing the same van will not get 400 KMS ands still have 50% charge.

Hence why we accounted for a recharge at some point through there trip, which should leave you with 40% or 50% at destination.

Either you use all 100% charge to get 400k's, or you only travel 200ks to have 50% battery left, and even that is being generous.

As pointed out we are accounting for a recharge already, so if you begin with 400km of range and add another 200km some where along the way that gives you a total of 600km, 600km minus the 400km driven leaves you with 200km in the battery eg 50% range.

And as I tried to point out, nine times out of ten we will be stopped overnight where there is no 10 or 15 amp plus for 300 kms.

Yeah, but that is not how most people caravan, and if you are 300km away from a petrol station thats a 600km round trip, your 400km of range is going not going to get you back to the petrol station either, so you will need about 3 jerry cans of diesel to be safe, again I am not sure most people are caravanning like that, but as pointed out if you like to extreme van you could use a generator, or just stick to diesel, no one is forcing you to go EV.

 

[mullokintyre]

Yeah, but that is not how most people caravan

Do have anything to back up that statement?
I do have at least 25k miles towing various vans, and I can tell you there are huge numbers of people travelling off grid who only go into caravan parks to top up their water tanks or do their washing.
And if they cpold get water from a town tap, they won't even go into a caravan park.

and if you are 300km away from a petrol station thats a 600km round trip, your 400km of range is going not going to get you back to the petrol station either, so you will need about 3 jerry cans of diesel to be safe, again I am not sure most people are caravanning like that, but as pointed out if you like to extreme van you could use a generator, or just stick to diesel, no one is forcing you to go EV.

You seem to think that all caravan trips are out to a point and back.
Its not how it works.
Most caravaners are doing longer trips , not going out for a night and returning home.
You drive from point to point limited by range, people don't drive back to where their last fuel stop was.
If you are 300km away from a petrol station, its because the petrol station is likley ahead of you, not behind.
sorry mate, I doubt you have ever towed a box trailer to the trip, much less an off road van.
Mick

 

[Value Collector]

Do have anything to back up that statement?
I do have at least 25k miles towing various vans, and I can tell you there are huge numbers of people travelling off grid who only go into caravan parks to top up their water tanks or do their washing.
And if they cpold get water from a town tap, they won't even go into a caravan park.

Just that caravan parks will tend to pop up along the most popular routes and destinations, I have no doubt that lots of people do what you describe but I don't think most people (over 50%) are regularly doing it.

You seem to think that all caravan trips are out to a point and back.

No, I said "most" not "all", and it doesn't have to be to a point and back, you can travel from park to park, and as I said along the most popular routes their will be chargers any way, just as the most popular routes have petrol stations.

Most caravaners are doing longer trips ,

No issue with long trips with Ev's, as pointed out you just stop to charge when needed, and maybe supplement with destination charging where available,

You drive from point to point limited by range, people don't drive back to where their last fuel stop was.
If you are 300km away from a petrol station,

its because the petrol station is likley ahead of you, not behind

.Same with an EV, but you said your nearest electricity was 300km from your camp site, so I assumed your nearest petrol station was equally as far, considering petrol stations require electricity too, so was pointing out your 400km range probably won't get you there either.

sorry mate, I doubt you have ever towed a box trailer to the trip, much less an off road van.
Mick

Actually I did quite a lot of towing during my time in the army.

Although I have never towed a caravan, I have Towed a 105 Artillery Gun off road and other weird and wonderful things

 

[mullokintyre]

Just that caravan parks will tend to pop up along the most popular routes and destinations, I have no doubt that lots of people do what you describe but I don't think most people (over 50%) are regularly doing it.

Look I don't wish to be rude, but you obviously have no experience in caravaning, so your statements about what the majority of caravaners may or may not do is way off the mark.
I would say there are more pubs in outback Australia that allow you to camp overnight than there are caravan parks.
Have a look at aps like Wkiki camps, Hema Maps, Australia Free camps or maps with me.
There are far more "free" camping spots in Australia than caravan parks.

No, I said "most" not "all", and it doesn't have to be to a point and back, you can travel from park to park, and as I said along the most popular routes their will be chargers any way, just as the most popular routes have petrol stations.

I had a look at Plugshare , one of the aps that show where you can charge your EV.
There are huge gaps throughout most of WA, western Queensland and western NSW.
You could probably travel from Port Douglas all the way along the coast to perth with enough charging stations to make it.
But then I would stay in motels if I was doing that trip, not tow a hefty van behind me.
But you would not get from Birdsville to Mount Isa, an 800 km trip with no chargers in between.
But there are probably ten diesel outlets along that route.

No issue with long trips with Ev's, as pointed out you just stop to charge when needed, and maybe supplement with destination charging where available,

.Same with an EV, but you said your nearest electricity was 300km from your camp site, so I assumed your nearest petrol station was equally as far, considering petrol stations require electricity too, so was pointing out your 400km range probably won't get you there either.

There is not a lot of places that have more than 300 kms between diesel stops, but that does not mean you can charge an EV.
There are numerous card only non manned fuel depots we have used that have no other facilites.

Actually I did quite a lot of towing during my time in the army.

Although I have never towed a caravan, I have Towed a 105 Artillery Gun off road and other weird and wonderful things

Yeah, I guess towing a 105 pound artillery gun is a good introduction to towing and living in a caravan.
Mick

 

[Value Collector]

Look I don't wish to be rude, but you obviously have no experience in caravaning, so your statements about what the majority of caravaners may or may not do is way off the mark.
I would say there are more pubs in outback Australia that allow you to camp overnight than there are caravan parks.
Have a look at aps like Wkiki camps, Hema Maps, Australia Free camps or maps with me.
There are far more "free" camping spots in Australia than caravan parks.

I had a look at Plugshare , one of the aps that show where you can charge your EV.
There are huge gaps throughout most of WA, western Queensland and western NSW.
You could probably travel from Port Douglas all the way along the coast to perth with enough charging stations to make it.
But then I would stay in motels if I was doing that trip, not tow a hefty van behind me.
But you would not get from Birdsville to Mount Isa, an 800 km trip with no chargers in between.
But there are probably ten diesel outlets along that route.

There is not a lot of places that have more than 300 kms between diesel stops, but that does not mean you can charge an EV.
There are numerous card only non manned fuel depots we have used that have no other facilites.


Yeah, I guess towing a 105 pound artillery gun is a good introduction to towing and living in a caravan.
Mick

If there are as you say not many places where you would have to drive more than 300kms between diesel stops, then obviously over time as EV’s grow in popularity those diesel stops can install chargers, because they would already have electricity anyway.

that is the main point I am making, and as with diesel they can be in manned, Tesla chargers don’t even require a card.

infact remote charging locations could be solar and battery powered, and not even require regular visits from fuel trucks bringing fuel from Saudi Arabia to central Australia.

I am well aware of plug share, I use it all the time.

 

[Smurf1976]

I thought this was already the case?

I wouldn't be sticking them inside or attached.

The normal method of installation is on an external wall.

Pretty much no modern suburban house has the physical space for a battery shed and even with an older one on a larger block it's not done in practice.

Personally well I own a battery and it's mounted on the house wall. Call it a privately funded research project.... Long term though batteries are things that go in EV's and at substations, wind farms, power stations etc they're not something most people need attached to their house.

For small devices though, things like power tools or IT equipment, well I'd very strongly recommend to anyone that they're not left on charge in the house unsupervised. But then I wouldn't recommend leaving your washing machine turned on at the power point when not in use either.

 

[sptrawler]

As to carting a 3.5 kva generator around to charge up batteries when I could just as easily pour it into my cars fuel tank and just keep travelling, i am afraid it makes no sense.

Mick

Mick I don't know how big the battery is in the Rivian, but it will take a long time to charge on 3Kw generator, think approx the same as a 10amp home socket.
Then think of everyone in the middle off nowhere, telling the vanker with the Kedron, to turn their fffing generator off. ?

 

[Value Collector]

Mick I don't know how big the battery is in the Rivian, but it will take a long time to charge on 3Kw generator, think approx the same as a 10amp home socket.
Then think of everyone in the middle off nowhere, telling the vanker with the Kedron, to turn their fffing generator off. ?

I am not talking about charging 0% to 100% routinely, just topping up those extra 10% or so when mick wantto do his extreme camping trip.

you would only need enough extra charge to get to your next charger, which Mick also said with diesel is rarely ever more than 300km, and there fore eventually will be the same with ev charging as it grows in popularity.

but as I pointed out, remote charging locations for Evs that are powered using solar and batteries, can actually make a lot more sense practically and economically than transporting diesel across the world and out to remote locations, even if you had to have a back up diesel generator in case it’s cloudy for a week, you could still reduce the need for fuel trucks by over 90% I reckon.

 

[sptrawler]

I am not talking about charging 0% to 100% routinely, just topping up those extra 10% or so when mick wantto do his extreme camping trip.

you would only need enough extra charge to get to your next charger, which Mick also said with diesel is rarely ever more than 300km, and there fore eventually will be the same with ev charging as it grows in popularity.

but as I pointed out, remote charging locations for Evs that are powered using solar and batteries, can actually make a lot more sense practically and economically than transporting diesel across the world and out to remote locations, even if you had to have a back up diesel generator in case it’s cloudy for a week, you could still reduce the need for fuel trucks by over 90% I reckon.

I agree with both of you, I have crossed Australia by most routes, so I can understand Mick's point of view.
But I also love new technology and having an electrical background, so I can appreciate the benefits of an electrical drive train.
It wont happen overnight, but in 20 years time everyone will be reminicing about the twin turbo 200 series with a 3 " straight through exhaust, but times move on things always improve.
As will EV's and charging infrastructure.
It is a bit like my best mate who is a car nut, he has just ordered a Hyundai i20n for his retirement, he said it would tear the HQ350 monaro he bought in the early 70's a new ar$e, times change.

 

[Smurf1976]

you could still reduce the need for fuel trucks by over 90% I reckon

Indeed - it doesn't have to be perfect, just needs to be better than what we've got at present.

A lot of remote area power systems have whacked some solar panels or wind turbines in for the same reason. They're still diesel based systems but they're now using less of it.

Even one of the oil companies is using solar at their production sites for that reason. Their aim is to sell the product, not burn it on site as soon as it comes out of the ground, so it makes perfect sense.

 

[JohnDe]

Petrol stations of the future: EV charging plus click and collect​

Petrol Stations of the Future: EV Charging plus Click and Collect

The humble petrol station is set to be transformed as the number of electric cars on Australian roads climbs to an estimated 1.7 million by 2030.

www.realcommercial.com.au

 

[rederob]

NEV sales in world's largest market are continuing their massive YoY increases:

Jan/Feb are typically low production months, especially Feb when during Chinese New Year tens of millions of workers return to their families to celebrate for a week.
Most production was for the local market, excepting Tesla's 40K exports.
Australia will soon see new NEV offerings from BYD and GWM and some of these are expected to be cheaper than MG's ZS EV.
Unfortunately Wuling cannot meet local demand for this cutie, so for now it's only available in China (from about AU$8K):

 

[Humid]

How do you reckon these things are going to handle getting t boned by one of the 5 million hi luxe's on the road

 

[rederob]

How do you reckon these things are going to handle getting t boned by one of the 5 million hi luxe's on the road

They are principally city cars and not much different to Minis, Fiat 500s, Kia Picantos and Suzuki Swifts in size, and millions of these have been on the roads for ages.
Small cars sell exceptionally well in Europe, so while Wulings won't be there, the Ora Good Cat arrived late last year and is also coming to Australia soon:

 

[Value Collector]

How do you reckon these things are going to handle getting t boned by one of the 5 million hi luxe's on the road

They will handle it better than motorcycle but worse than a motor coach