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The good, the bad and the ugly of Teslas.
The good, the bad and the ugly of Teslas.
Andrew Forrest thinks BEV's will be a stop gap, until H2 fuel cell cars and infrastructure are installed, which kind of is what we have been saying on this thread.
From the article:
But hydrogen isn’t without its problems, as Mr Forrest noted in his lecture.
Similar to how a Tesla is only as green as the fuel you use to charge it, hydrogen is only as good as the fuel you use to produce it.
“Right now, we don’t use it for energy, it’s just an ingredient used in industrial processes, and we make it from fossil fuels – quaintly calling it grey hydrogen, to hide the fact that it’s a pollutant,” Mr Forrest said.
“Green hydrogen – the good stuff – is virtually ignored by the economic world.
We’re missing a colossal opportunity.”
Mr Forrest reckons a properly harnessed green hydrogen industry using renewable sources for production could generate revenues “at the very least of $US12 trillion ($A15.5 trillion) a year by 2050, bigger than any industry we have”.
Our “technology-led” Asian neighbours in Japan, Korea and China “have together pledged to put almost 8 million hydrogen fuel cell cars on the road”, and “Australia, with characteristic luck, is sitting on everything it needs to be the world leader – but only if it acts fast,” Mr Forrest said.
He added that although the Federal Government hasn’t committed to a zero emissions target by 2050 (and has also dragged its feet long enough for any eventual commitment to be largely symbolic: All of the states and territories now have their own targets), it is still “investing 300 million dollars in hydrogen”.
But Mr Forrest thinks it won’t even take until 2050 thanks to the same economic system that made him a billionaire.
“Forget 2050 – zero emissions will begin to happen overnight. That’s how capitalism works – you can predict that too,” he said.
There will be a place for hydrogen, But Battery EV’s only going to grow in number, they are just far to convenient for the vast majority of people.Andrew Forrest thinks BEV's will be a stop gap, until H2 fuel cell cars and infrastructure are installed, which kind of is what we have been saying on this thread.
From the article:
But hydrogen isn’t without its problems, as Mr Forrest noted in his lecture.
Similar to how a Tesla is only as green as the fuel you use to charge it, hydrogen is only as good as the fuel you use to produce it.
“Right now, we don’t use it for energy, it’s just an ingredient used in industrial processes, and we make it from fossil fuels – quaintly calling it grey hydrogen, to hide the fact that it’s a pollutant,” Mr Forrest said.
“Green hydrogen – the good stuff – is virtually ignored by the economic world.
We’re missing a colossal opportunity.”
Mr Forrest reckons a properly harnessed green hydrogen industry using renewable sources for production could generate revenues “at the very least of $US12 trillion ($A15.5 trillion) a year by 2050, bigger than any industry we have”.
Our “technology-led” Asian neighbours in Japan, Korea and China “have together pledged to put almost 8 million hydrogen fuel cell cars on the road”, and “Australia, with characteristic luck, is sitting on everything it needs to be the world leader – but only if it acts fast,” Mr Forrest said.
He added that although the Federal Government hasn’t committed to a zero emissions target by 2050 (and has also dragged its feet long enough for any eventual commitment to be largely symbolic: All of the states and territories now have their own targets), it is still “investing 300 million dollars in hydrogen”.
But Mr Forrest thinks it won’t even take until 2050 thanks to the same economic system that made him a billionaire.
“Forget 2050 – zero emissions will begin to happen overnight. That’s how capitalism works – you can predict that too,” he said.
A lot will depend on who makes money out of selling what, the BEV makes a lot of sense, but there isn't a lot of money to be made out of them for the fuel companies.There will be a place for hydrogen, But Battery EV’s only going to grow in number, they are just far to convenient for the vast majority of people.
Once you own a BEV, going back to a model that requires you to go to the petrol station is a step backwards not forwards, especially for people that want to utilise their own solar production.
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Industrial use of hydrogen, synthetic liquid fuels, energy storage, etc etc will be good uses of hydrogen.
But, I challenge anyone to drive an EV for 6 months charging at home to see whether they want to start attending the petrol station again, I doubt any sane person would, to many moving parts in the hydrogen production and transport model for it to ever compete with simply charging at home.
FWIW There was a concept around very early this century for hydrogen vehicles which did assume the hydrogen would be produced on-site at the servo from electrolysis.Who knows they may and start to make green hydrogen and supply both BEV's and H2 at servo's
FWIW There was a concept around very early this century for hydrogen vehicles which did assume the hydrogen would be produced on-site at the servo from electrolysis.
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@sptrawler - A lot will depend on who makes money out of selling what, the BEV makes a lot of sense, but there isn't a lot of money to be made out of them for the fuel companies.
from the article - Currently, hydrogen is typically compressed by a reciprocal compressor. At the flow rates and pressures for 1,000 kg/day hydrogen refueling stations, these compressors can achieve an isentropic efficiency of about 56% and a motor efficiency of 92% [5]. Using these values, the H2A Delivery Scenario Model (HDSAM) projects a refueling station compression energy efficiency of 52% to fill 350 and 49% for 700 bar vehicles.
I think the Electricity companies, especially the renewables generators looking to unload excess power can make a lot of money charging cars especially if they convince their customers to install smart chargers that they control.
That would only work for consumers if there were enough electricity companies around to provide proper competition.
I posted this in another thread that shows that competition in the retail electricity sector is a myth.
47,000 Queenslanders join class action against firms accused of pushing up power prices
The law firm leading a major class action involving more than 47,000 people is looking for more people to register for reimbursement as it alleges two of the state's biggest power players artificially created a lack of supply to drive up prices.www.abc.net.au
Agreed from a technical perspective certainly.Much better to just be charging BEVs at that point, rather that suffer all the losses of Electrolysis and compression.
My guess is the change will happen very rapidly, over the next 3-5 years, as the coal generators become less and less cost effective and less reliable due to increased cycling of the units.
As we posted in the power thread, the only coal fired power station in W.A that is privately owned, have the youngest units on the grid and have already been written down to zero value, so either the generators get out or adapt.
The market is pretty brutal in penalising high cost producers when there is a cheaper simpler model.Agreed from a technical perspective certainly.
From a business perspective though, the electricity companies will ultimately aim to supply whatever the market decides it wants be that efficient or inefficient technically.
There's plenty of precedents for inefficient technical approaches ending up the way something is done in practice.
A lot of freight travels further than it needs to for example. Technically inefficient but efficient from a business perspective.
If you're reading this on a desktop or laptop PC then most likely it's running an operating system that's notoriously inefficient technically but it works pretty well and dominates the market.
Incandescent lighting was outmoded in the 1930's so far as efficiency is concerned but continued to expand greatly for decades beyond that.
Etc. Lots of examples where the inefficient approach won. The energy industry will go whichever way consumers and car manufacturers go.
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