Election 2007

[BradK]

Let's kick of a thread on the election, huh?

Perhaps we could start talking about Howard's cynical attempt to offer a belated reconciliation between indigenous and non-indigenous Australia?

Or his recognition that there are those in Australia 'untouched by prosperity'?

Or how about his continuing support for an illegal war? Or we could start early on the release of Hick's, some 12 weeks before he is due out of an Adelaide prison?

Or we could speculate on what 'rabbit' he will pull out of his hat to strike fear in the hearts of the country?

Its going to be an interesting 6 weeks.

Brad

 

[2020hindsight]

Brad, will be interesting to see what they actually say , lol.
usually they don't like to say too much - promises can be bludy vague - or easily "re-interpreted"

Just like Johnny Howard saying the other night he wanted to make peace with the Abs - but next day clarifying (re-interpreting) that he had not changed or moved one iota on the subject

He leaves us as prisoners of his unsaid words - in his case, I suspect, unthought words.
(HEY SPEECHWRITER - what's all this crap about globular warming!! - and aboriginal matters!! and FAIRNESS TESTs !! .. etc)

and all pollies seem to be prisoners of compromise.

and gotta feeling we're the prisoners of expectation.

PS this girl writes good stuff btw - she ain't just an ugly face.
Def Poetry Jam - Alicia Keys - POW

prisoner of compromise
of compassion
of kindness
of expectation

 

[Nyden]

Let's kick of a thread on the election, huh?

Perhaps we could start talking about Howard's cynical attempt to offer a belated reconciliation between indigenous and non-indigenous Australia?

Or his recognition that there are those in Australia 'untouched by prosperity'?

Or how about his continuing support for an illegal war? Or we could start early on the release of Hick's, some 12 weeks before he is due out of an Adelaide prison?

Or we could speculate on what 'rabbit' he will pull out of his hat to strike fear in the hearts of the country?

Its going to be an interesting 6 weeks.

Brad

Wow, what an unbiased thread.

Close this thread, open a new one - one where adults can discuss alternative political views whilst remaining respectful



Edit:

Sorry, but - I just can't let it slide anymore. I'm so sick of labor supporters.

Yes, because Liberal are just so evil aren't they? Labor has just been playing this game completely fair, right?
Rubbish - forgotten the little Labor/Union scare campaign already have we? Big Bad Work-Choices, going to ruin families! Terrible Nuclear Power Plants, in each of our backyards!

Don't go talking about scare campaigns, if you're a labor supporter

 

[BradK]

Wow, what an unbiased thread.

Close this thread, open a new one - one where adults can discuss alternative political views whilst remaining respectful


Nyden,

I am not saying that I am a Labor supporter. Obviously, I am not a Howard lover either, but what was it that I said that was inaccurate? Please enlighten me - the Aboriginal issue, the recognition of those 'untocuehd by prosperity', Hicks?

I am ALL up for being challenged. Healthy political debate is what we need in this country - and lets hope that it comes back.

Again, Please point out the inaccuracies in my post

Brad

 

[2020hindsight]

I've got a question to put to em both on the debate night.

HOSPITALS - WHY TASMANIA?
Why should Mersey Hospital get so much attention, when there's a dearth of hospitals west of the Great Divide.

Why is it that 45 minutes down the road there's a perfectly good major hospital, and it's crazy to compete - they should be concentrating on specialisation of resources.

(all this as put to Johnny Howard by a politically-savvy male nurse during recent visit to Mersey Hospital)

PS Smurf has already told us the answer elsewhere. Seriously marginal seat etc - best roads in Tas etc (i.e. they get the same treatment from state govt)


PULP MILL, TASMANIAN FOREST POLICY
(Seems to be Homebase for the GREENs )

Be interesting to see what happens in Tamar valley electorate - with the pulp mill - and possible pollution concerns -
- and 1500kms away - what happens in Wentworth (Sydney) on the same matter, Gunns trained on Turnbull etc - well he's in for a rough ride apparently
Possibly more impact on Turnbull than anybody (since Garret has agreed with the Libs to accept the extra requirements for Gunns to meet)
http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,22553538-13360,00.html

Pulp mill issue spills to mainland

DEBATE on the $2 billion pulp mill proposed by Gunns for the pristine Tamar Valley in Tasmania has spilled from its emotional localised base to the mainland, where it has become a federal election issue - at least in the Sydney seat of Wentworth held by Environment Minister Malcolm Turnbull.

The saga began as a controversy about logging native forests, about jobs, about the power a wealthy company is able to wield, and about democratic process. Indeed, there is a legitimate argument about whether the Tasmanian State Government short-changed its constituents in evaluating the environmental repercussions of the mill and whether it contrived with Gunns to manipulate public opinion, as some of the most vehement opponents of the proposal – notably the Greens – claim is the case. Although the debate is far from over, Federal Government environmental assessment has added stringent requirements which Gunns now will be obliged to meet.

Opponents of the pulp mill would like to see it equated with Tasmania's Franklin River Dam proposal, blocked by the Hawke government in 1983 after another long and emotional debate. In that case, however – narrowly upheld by the High Court – the government's move was via its external affairs powers, on the basis the damming of the Franklin would affect an area that had been listed as world heritage under an international treaty.

The Tamar is a beautiful part of the world boasting a clean environment, cool-climate wineries, tourism, fishing and farming. For the first five years of the mill's operation, most woodchips will come from native forests while plantation timber is phased in. Mr Turnbull's added safeguards under federal environmental law come on the recommendation of the Government's chief scientist. Labor also waited for the chief scientist's report before confirming its support in principle for the mill.

It is not reasonable, in these circumstances, for Mr Turnbull to be targeted on a personal basis because he has followed the process open to him. Opposition spokesman Peter Garrett supported the Turnbull announcement because he knew, if the decision were in his court, he would have to reach the same conclusion, although Labor says it would consider amending the Environment Protection Act if it won government, in particular to include a climate-change trigger. But no changes would be retrospective. Labor's support has frustrated the Government, given that at the last election it won two Tasmanian seats on the basis of former Opposition leader Mark Latham's forest policy, which has now been dumped. It is easy for the Greens and extremists to express outrage and target both of the major parties and prolong the debate, but theirs is simply a case of all care, no responsibility.

Telstra director and mill opponent Geoffrey Cousins has not given up the cause. Gunns' bank, the ANZ, has yet to decide if it will fund the project and has commissioned its own review. However, the bottom line is that Mr Turnbull's insistence on 48 conditions is aimed at preserving the Tamar's natural assets and should be accepted.

Summary
I would say Turnbull was a prisoner of compromise in even looking into the matter, and
Garrett likewise in agreeing with the outcome.

The Greens (whether or not they are deluded) are often the only ones not keen on compromise ( imo - perhaps I'm deluded lol)

 

[Nyden]

Wow, what an unbiased thread.

Close this thread, open a new one - one where adults can discuss alternative political views whilst remaining respectful


Nyden,

I am not saying that I am a Labor supporter. Obviously, I am not a Howard lover either, but what was it that I said that was inaccurate? Please enlighten me - the Aboriginal issue, the recognition of those 'untocuehd by prosperity', Hicks?

I am ALL up for being challenged. Healthy political debate is what we need in this country - and lets hope that it comes back.

Again, Please point out the inaccuracies in my post

Brad

The only thing I have a beef with - is the fact that you begun a thread entitled 'Election 2007', and instead of giving an introduction about what this thread shall be used for - you begun with the Howard bashing.

I would say a 'non Howard-Lover' is by far an understatement - you basically went off topic in your own thread - almost, attempting to turn this thread into a speculative discussion on what "tricks" Howard is going to try next.

You could have said 'Let's speculate on what these politicians will pull!"

Your facts are not so much inaccurate - but, phrased incredibly poorly.
You use the words 'cynical', and illegal - words that are opinionated, & not factual.


I'm sorry if I'm venting on you - I'm just a little irrationally angry at labor supporters. All they seem to do lately is protest something or other in those damn hard hats throughout the city.

And yes, that's an unfair generalization I know, but - the only labor supporters I know, do all seem to be the certain blue collars that want more for less


Edit:

The point is - you have started this thread off to be an anti-Howard thread, as opposed to an election thread.

 

[nioka]

Wow, what an unbiased thread.

Close this thread, open a new one - one where adults can discuss alternative political views

Is is a fact that I am not an adult if :-

(1) I don't agree with you

(2) I decide I don't trust Howard any more and therefore don't vote Liberal in this election.

 

[Nyden]

Is is a fact that I am not an adult if :-

(1) I don't agree with you

(2) I decide I don't trust Howard any more and therefore don't vote Liberal in this election.

By all means, no.

You can hate Howard, you can vote for whoever you want.

You can say that you hate Howard

But; the wording of his first post just really ticked me off - the whole "let's start bashing Howard!"

He should have titled the thread Kevin07, instead of Election 2007; if this was to be the topic.



To label something cynical, in the opening of a formal discussion...

Can anyone see my point here, or am I reading too far into all of this?

 

[2020hindsight]

Summary
I would say Turnbull was a prisoner of compromise in even looking into the matter, and
Garrett likewise in agreeing with the outcome.

The Greens (whether or not they are deluded) are often the only ones not keen on compromise ( imo - perhaps I'm deluded lol)

well I personally hope that the Greens get balance of power in the senate - like the good old days of the Democrats "keeping the bastards (half) honest"

To label something cynical, in the opening of a formal discussion...
Can anyone see my point here, or am I reading too far into all of this?

Nyden - yep - see where you're coming from - but
there seem to be two types of opening posts
a) balanced, or
b) provocative, or
something in between I guess

This one? - probably a Bflat yes? - you'd probably say a B# lol.

Meanwhile Wayne has a thread called Global Cooling - now has 160 posts - I don't think anyone has mentioned cooling since lol . So take heart - maybe after 160 posts here, they'll all be diametrically opposed to the tone of the opening post

 

[arminius]

the thing is nyden, a hell of a lot of balanced, educated, and fair-minded people have had an absolute gutful. anger tends to find a way out.
can you not see how a majority of australians would be so angry. have you seen whats been going on and whats been said over the last few years?

 

[Bazmate]

Ok, Here's my adult, TIC view:

I'm still stuck on Kevin-07's handling of the strip joint thing....

What sort of a bloke, let alone an Aussie bloke, get's pissed and goes to a strip club only to come out and say that he didn't have a good time, didn't look at the girls, and didn't think about touching?
What sort of a shirt lifter is he?

Don't think I want to trust a bloke like that with my vote..

Baz

 

[robots]

hello,

go johnny howard, roll on nov 24

keep australia beautiful

thankyou

robots

 

[noco]

Go Johnny Go!

 

[noco]

Go Johnny Go! Who wants coast to caost Labor?
8 Labor states and Terriotories and then add to that a Federal Labor Government and Senate can only spell disastor.
You Labor supporters should think hard. All Labor states and Terriotories are all in debt to the tune of $70 billion. Under these circumstances there is nothing in their way to stop them increasing the GST to 14 %. KRUDD says he won't, but the states have other ideas and he will be under a lot of pressure to bow to states demands. May be we should all have a dose of Labor for 3 years and then keep them out for another 10 years after.

 

[Whiskers]

Go Johnny Go! Who wants coast to caost Labor?
8 Labor states and Terriotories and then add to that a Federal Labor Government and Senate can only spell disastor.
You Labor supporters should think hard. All Labor states and Terriotories are all in debt to the tune of $70 billion. Under these circumstances there is nothing in their way to stop them increasing the GST to 14 %. KRUDD says he won't, but the states have other ideas and he will be under a lot of pressure to bow to states demands. May be we should all have a dose of Labor for 3 years and then keep them out for another 10 years after.

Are you a lib member noco?

You Labor supporters should think hard.

Qld has a massive state labour majority, but a miniscule number of federal seats. Obviously not many pro labour supporters in the sunshine state. Most are like me, swinging voters who take each election on it's merrits.

On one of the news bulletins here this evening (according to the maths of the reporter) a reasonable swing to labour in Qld alone could win the fed election for labour, assuming the status quo remains in the other states.

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

Go Johnny Go!

Noco mate, I think Labor are going to have a landslide victory. I'm a swinging voter, still undecided, but the majority seem to have given Johnny the flick.

garpal

 

[2020hindsight]

googlemaps have added electoral boundaries plus a heap of info :-
http://www.google.com.au/election2007/
http://maps.google.com.au/maps/mm

Note that you can check out seats and their margins.
Show seats by party and margin

Tick the parties and/or margins that you wish to view and click on the Show button. Party logos corresponding to electorates that do not meet your criteria will be greyed out. To avoid cluttering not all electorate names are displayed at lower zoom levels. Simply zoom in further to view all the data. Click on List of seats to view the list of seats that meet your criteria.

For instance if you pick

margin , tight as <1%
plus
"very marginal" 1-3%
plus
"marginal" 3-6%

and ask for bennelong ...
and then zoom out
you get this :-
Note that seats that don't comply are greyed out ..
Libs are vulnerable in Lindsay, Wentworth (Turnbull) and Bennalong (Howard)
Labour are vulnerable in Parramatta and Banks.
(E&OE )

Straight away you see Libs problem - they only hold some by a small margin. (well 6% is marginal according to google)

BTW, you can see those two seats in Tas where the Libs are vulnerable as well. (and one for Labour as well)

 

[2020hindsight]

"This is a world's first for google - and it happened here in Australia"

"the convergence of democracy and the internet "

Google goes to Canberra

http://www.youtube.com/australiavotes

Note that seats that don't comply are greyed out ..
Libs are vulnerable in Lindsay, Wentworth (Turnbull) and Bennalong (Howard)
Labour are vulnerable in Parramatta and Banks. oops and Lowe

 

[prawn_86]

pffft politics.

compulsary voting is just a way for the 2 major parties to ensure that they remain 1 of 2 in power. Veiw my blog for more detail.

It is just unfortunate i actuallly have to care who wins...

 

[brettc4]

I am all for a debate on upcoming election and would like to see people talk about policy and specific actions instead of basking one way of the other. The politicians will do enough of that.

How about discussing things that will greatly affect your portfolio and the economy in general and the describe how you believe a Labor government will affect your portfolio compare to a Liberal government.

For example, the policies I believe will greatly affect the economy and stock market the greatest are:

Work place legislation - Labor will repeal some of these laws, Liberals may go further. Recently I was retrenched due to a Private Equity company buying my company in the US and closing the Adelaide office and expanding the Melbourne office. Regardless of who was in power and associated laws, neither party would have been able to stop that.
Now of the 40 odd people retrenched, at least 90% have new jobs in less than 2 months, myself included. That does say something about the state of the economy. I do fear that if Labor gets in, unions will have more powers and I do not see that as a good thing and I believe unemployment will rise. Therefore on Work Place Legislation, I give it to the Liberals.

Fiscal Policy Government spending has a big effect on inflation and therefore interest rates as well as on unemployment. Liberal has consistently produced Budget surpluses which has removed debt, a good thing, and has been able to setup the Future fund and University Endowment, both good things. But I feel they have too big a surpluses, the government isn't in the business of making money so I believe the surpluses are to big. Whether they give money back in Tax brakes, Petrol Tax reduction, or spend more on Health and education doesn't really bother me, but the amount of surplus does.
Rudd says he is an economic conservative and is commited to budget surpluses. I believe that their surpluses will not be as high as I believe the will spend a lot more than Liberals. My concern would be, how long the budget surpluses remain, and if government spending increased, my understanding of economics says inflation and therefore interest rates will increase.
I am not sure who I give this one two, I lean towards liberals based on past record.

Tax Reform - I haven't heard much about this from either party. Liberals seem to want you to pay your own way, Labor seems to want the government to pay for a minimum that everyone can get. I don't see Labor cutting taxes much and are more a chance to increase taxes thatn Liberal.

Other policies which will affect include:
Climate Change - I am not a climate change sceptic, and I agree something needs to be done. Is Kyoto the answer, I don't think so as the UN has no teeth. Most countries who have signed it will not meet their target and their is no punsihment. So I don't see ratifying Kyoto as a solution. I think more analysis, especially economic analysis needs to be done to ensure the solution chosen does not adversely affect our competitiveness.

Housing affordability - I wil be very interested to see what comes out regarding this. Personal opinion is, that this problem is the result of 2 things, the me generation and prosperity in the baby boomers.
The Me Generation want everything now, 2 new cars, the latest phone evry year, plasma (or LCD, don't want to get into that arguement), playstation 3 and an x-box 360. Once they buy all that they complain they can't save for a deposit no s**t). Maybe they do not all say it, but the media beats it up enough that you think they all say it.
The baby boomers have done very well and therefore are willing to chase prices up because over the longer term they are confident housing will continue to go up.
How do you solve this?? who knows but it will be interesting to see if either party comes up with a solution which just doesn't inflate house prices even further.

I am willing to say that although Howard and Costello may have lost touch with the common person (and I don't know if I completely agree) based on the economic credentials (which is what matters most to me) I will vote Liberal.

For those of you whose priorities lay elsewhere policies on Iraq, and the environment will play a different role in your decision and I appreciate it, but this is where I stand.

But please add your comments, or set me straight if I have missed a policy annoucement that goes against what I have said.

Brett