Education

[sptrawler]

I read in the paper, that the violence and bullying among the young, has been brought about by the lack of respect for authority.
Well what an enlightening statement, amazing it has taken them so long to work it out.

 

[sptrawler]

https://www.watoday.com.au/national...dents-need-a-bigger-push-20191210-p53iow.html
From the article:
For the first time, Australia failed to exceed the OECD average in maths, and the nation's results in reading and science has declined since Programme for International Student Assessment testing began in the early 2000s.

 

[sptrawler]

I just saw first hand an example of how bad our education system is, Aldi were selling books today on how to teach your children math's and english, people were queuing up to buy them.
I suppose you don't want children too bright, then they might not want to take days off, to attend protest rallies.

 

[macca]

I just saw first hand an example of how bad our education system is, Aldi were selling books today on how to teach your children math's and english, people were queuing up to buy them.
I suppose you don't want children too bright, then they might not want to take days off, to attend protest rallies.

It is sad that people think it is necessary to buy their own but good that the parents are interested in the kids progress at school and are prepared to get involved in making it happen

 

[BlindSquirrel]

https://www.watoday.com.au/national...port-struggling-students-20200203-p53xf4.html
"State School Teachers’ Union of WA senior vice-president Paul Bridge said as teachers used their own money for basic items such as paper and pencils, at the same time private schools built performing arts centres and swimming pools using taxpayer funds.

Mr Bridge said the solution came down to needs-based funding for public schools.

“Instead we have a federal government which throws money at private schools using out-and-out rorts such as dedicated infrastructure funds for private schools that state schools cannot access,” he said."

Obviously a partisan comment from a left-wing source but there is something wrong here.

Instead of paying through the nose for private education for our kid-squirrels we're supplementing their knowledge with home learning along with their mixing with the local underprivileged ones at the local primary school. Unfortunately that school seems more interested in not leaving the dullards behind than pushing the capable ones higher.

 

[SirRumpole]

Unfortunately that school seems more interested in not leaving the dullards behind than pushing the capable ones higher.

That's most of the problem I think. The "everyone gets a prize attitude".

STEM has most likely been deprecated because it's just too hard in favour of climate change and Indigenous history .

 

[sptrawler]

Is there any wonder private schools are doing well, and KME education centres are full steam ahead, in those places they can probably get rid of teachers that can't teach.

https://www.smh.com.au/national/tea...heir-degrees-report-says-20200219-p542cq.html
From the article:
One in two aspiring teachers are failing to finish their degree within six years, and the number of students accepted into education courses with ATARs lower than 50 has grown fivefold over the past decade.

Yet many of those studying teaching are of an "unknown academic standard" because they are not using an ATAR or past study results to enter the degree, a report by Sydney University academic Rachel Wilson has found.

Probably the best statement in the whole article IMO was:
"Performance in the first year of university is a much better indicator of successful completion than ATAR or school results," she said. "I agree that academic performance is important for teachers, but how we measure that performance is also important."

All they have done in the last 10 years is throw more and more money at it, well they need to sort the problem and money isn't it. IMO
Ejecting those that aren't suitable, from the course, would be a good start, this everyone's a winner mentality is going to wreck Australia.
All that will happen if it continues as is will be, more will send their children to private schools and private tuition.
The reason we have so many crap teachers, is because we make the kids go to school until they are in their 20's, then they realise maybe I need to lower my expectations and then try and find a job.
If as a while back, some left at 15 years old to do trades, some left at 17 years old to do semi professional jobs and then the best went to Uni, we wouldn't need half the teachers we have now.
Bring back TAFE, training hospitals and apprenticeships, stop this nonsense that everyone and their dog has to go to Uni. Just admit it is a big stuff up and go back to the future.
My rant for the week.

 

[SirRumpole]

Bring back TAFE, training hospitals and apprenticeships, stop this nonsense that everyone and their dog has to go to Uni. Just admit it is a big stuff up and go back to the future.

Agreed.

We should also accept the fact that STEM subjects are hard, hard to teach and hard to learn.

I think people who want to teach maths and science should have degrees in those subjects. And I think we should have specialist high schools for teaching STEM subjects. That would be good for teachers because they know that the kids there want to learn STEM and good for the students because they will know that the teachers know what they are talking about.

The "classic" high schools would teach history, arts, economics, geography etc for those who want to go in that direction.

 

[sptrawler]

Agreed.

We should also accept the fact that STEM subjects are hard, hard to teach and hard to learn.

I think people who want to teach maths and science should have degrees in those subjects. And I think we should have specialist high schools for teaching STEM subjects. That would be good for teachers because they know that the kids there want to learn STEM and good for the students because they will know that the teachers know what they are talking about.

The "classic" high schools would teach history, arts, economics, geography etc for those who want to go in that direction.

They can't seem to accept that not everyone is academically inclined, interested or gifted, to make the kids continue on and on while still underachieving just demotivates them and makes them angry.
The theory behind keeping kids at school and making them do minimum year 12, was to prepare them for the 'jobs' of the future, well guess what the future is here but the technical jobs en masse didn't arrive.
The problem is brickies, sparkies, welders, scaffolders, T.A's, mechanical fitters, diesel fitters, plumbers, check out people, storemen, P.A's etc are still needed and guess what year 12 doesn't help them, just shows them they wasted 2 years of their lives.
Best thing I ever did was remove my then 15 year old daughter from school, then pay for her to go through a business training college, she left there and became a legal secretary, then para legal secretary, then P.A to a barrister and office manager.
With her school grades she would have continued as a c-d student.

 

[SirRumpole]

They can't seem to accept that not everyone is academically inclined, interested or gifted, to make the kids continue on and on while still underachieving just demotivates them and makes them angry.
The theory behind keeping kids at school and making them do minimum year 12, was to prepare them for the 'jobs' of the future, well guess what the future is here but the technical jobs en masse didn't arrive.
The problem is brickies, sparkies, welders, scaffolders, T.A's, mechanical fitters, diesel fitters, plumbers, check out people, storemen, P.A's etc are still needed and guess what year 12 doesn't help them, just shows them they wasted 2 years of their lives.

Why train our own kids when we can just import tradies from O/S ?

FFS tradies get paid more than uni graduates in some cases, give our kids a chance to earn some big money.

 

[sptrawler]

Why train our own kids when we can just import tradies from O/S ?

FFS tradies get paid more than uni graduates in some cases, give our kids a chance to earn some big money.

Just another example of politicians social engineering, getting it wrong and wanting to throw money at it, rather than admit it and bl@@dy fixing it.
Dumb $hit IMO.
If we went back to the old way, we would need half the teachers, therefore we would probably end up with those who actually want to be teachers.

 

[macca]

I agree with the latest posts but imagine the dramas with the Teachers Unions, the changes made since the unions started deciding the curriculum in NSW have all headed in the wrong direction.

Funny, the direction change occurred much the same time as new habit of advertising during the election campaigns.

We are friends with four ex-teachers, all over 55 years, all took early retirement, all say the same thing, we are teachers not brain washers.

One lady was attacked by a 10 year old boy with a ruler, she held his arms to protect herself while the class captain rushed next door to get another teacher. Between them they managed to hold him until the class captain got the headmaster.

Our friend got suspended, the helper got a severe reprimand.

The kids parents demanded she be sacked, she took early retirement because she was too stressed to continue working, 30 years experience, commendations, years of being favourite teacher, presents at year end, letters of appreciation for her care, all meant nothing

The kids and the unions are running the schools in NSW, the government has very little say.

 

[SirRumpole]

I agree with the latest posts but imagine the dramas with the Teachers Unions, the changes made since the unions started deciding the curriculum in NSW have all headed in the wrong direction.

Funny, the direction change occurred much the same time as new habit of advertising during the election campaigns.

We are friends with four ex-teachers, all over 55 years, all took early retirement, all say the same thing, we are teachers not brain washers.

One lady was attacked by a 10 year old boy with a ruler, she held his arms to protect herself while the class captain rushed next door to get another teacher. Between them they managed to hold him until the class captain got the headmaster.

Our friend got suspended, the helper got a severe reprimand.

The kids parents demanded she be sacked, she took early retirement because she was too stressed to continue working, 30 years experience, commendations, years of being favourite teacher, presents at year end, letters of appreciation for her care, all meant nothing

The kids and the unions are running the schools in NSW, the government has very little say.

Was that at a public or private school ?

 

[sptrawler]

Was that at a public or private school ?

Well Rumpy, my FIL was a headmaster (rest his soul) and a very good teacher, he took early retirement, because he couldn't stop the teachers union making his job impossible.
He went to the school at 7.30am and came home from the school at 5.00PM. He expected teachers at the school at 8.00 am and to leave at 4,00 pm, that wasn't acceptable, in the end nothing was acceptable.
He became a dinosaur, teaching became about a job with 12 weeks holidays a year, but there was a pay ceiling because it wasn't a university degree.
Well that was fixed, then the problem became, why do we have to do stuff in our time?
So student free days came in, so now it became a 13 week holiday job, why wouldn't you want some of that?
Well because it is a pain in the butt, unless you have a natural bent toward teaching, but that isn't part of the competency requirements.
So we end up with a system full of teachers, wanting the holidays and work times(9-3), but not wanting the pain of students.
Also because students have to stay at school to year 12, you have a lot of students who don't want to be there, all in all it is a pretty screwed up system that wont be fixed by throwing more money at it. IMO
From my observations, primary school has become a babysitting facility for teachers, waiting out their time untill the next school holiday.
Sad maybe, but when I find my grandson doesn't know his times tables, or have any understanding of basic addition or subtraction going into grade 4, I think I have every right to be pizzed.
In 4 weeks the wife has done wonders.
The whole system needs a reset.

 

[qldfrog]

Agreed.

We should also accept the fact that STEM subjects are hard, hard to teach and hard to learn.

I think people who want to teach maths and science should have degrees in those subjects. And I think we should have specialist high schools for teaching STEM subjects. That would be good for teachers because they know that the kids there want to learn STEM and good for the students because they will know that the teachers know what they are talking about.

The "classic" high schools would teach history, arts, economics, geography etc for those who want to go in that direction.

Qld has the academies:
My son went thru:
https://qa.eq.edu.au/
Prime public education, in our case for STEM.
You have also academic achievers streams in other public schools
Kelvin Grove for example where you can get some uni units in y10..says it all about uni....
Hope it helps
But some primary teachers did some damages....in term of motivation, tall poppies cutting, sexism, the usual...
Some were very good too and pointed us to that selective escape.
But 1 good and 1 bad does not do one average sadly.
I pity the good teachers to be honest

 

[macca]

Was that at a public or private school ?

It was at a NSW public school.

The sad part is that so many good people who choose to be teachers, are drowning in a flood of PC and propaganda.

They simply do not get the opportunity to actually "teach" as we older students would know it

 

[SirRumpole]

It was at a NSW public school.

The sad part is that so many good people who choose to be teachers, are drowning in a flood of PC and propaganda.

They simply do not get the opportunity to actually "teach" as we older students would know it

Yes, I'm afraid the combination of Left Wing unions and Right Wing governments have trashed the education system.

 

[IFocus]

My son trained as a high school teacher (he is a caring type of person really smart guy) did not pursue a career after completing his prac at a public schools WA and NSW, said the kids were rabid and he was powerless it was a system thing nothing to do with unions.

All under Liberal federal and state governments.

He now manages a private company and I sleep at night

 

[sptrawler]

My son trained as a high school teacher (he is a caring type of person really smart guy) did not pursue a career after completing his prac at a public schools WA and NSW, said the kids were rabid and he was powerless it was a system thing nothing to do with unions.

All under Liberal federal and state governments.

He now manages a private company and I sleep at night

IMO it started when Labor made year 12 just about mandatory, also in W.A a lot can be laid at Carmen's feet, teachers union to State politics, to Premier, to Federal.
It has been in freefall since teaching became a degree, which was done to push their pay up and IMO pushed the standard down.
Similar to what competency standards have done to the trades, now that was the Liberals, they are all useless.

 

[Tink]

Parents deserve the right to choose which school best meets the needs of their children, writes Hannah Pandel.

The war over school choice has been reignited and once again, opponents of market-based education reforms entirely miss the point.

A national study released in April this year analysed the cognitive outcomes of 4,000 Australian primary-school children at government and non-government schools. Th e study, entitled ‘Does School Type Affect Cognitive and Non-Cognitive Development in Children?’ declared that ‘sending children to Catholic or other independent primary schools has no signifi cant effect on their cognitive and non-cognitive outcome’.

These results have been met with the inevitable response from critics of non-government schools, who have taken the opportunity to denounce school choice, and call for increased funding for government schools. This is easy to refute. If any point is to be taken from this study regarding funding, it is that school choice has not destroyed government schools; rather, they have been able to achieve results comparable to those of non-government schools with less funding. Competition works. But why let the truth get in the way of a good cash-grab opportunity?

While calling for increased funding for government schools, Save Our Schools spokesman Trevor Cobbold went so far as to say that, ‘If you think you are getting some advantage in education outcomes from sending your child to a private school rather than a government school, think again’.

Cobbold’s response is typical of people who wilfully ignore the myriad of reasons that more and more Australian parents have when choosing to enrol their children in nongovernment schools.

Yes, academic outcomes are a priority for parents when it comes to selecting a school for their children. But it is not the only factor. This is the conclusion of a 2013 study by the Friedman Foundation for Educational Choice, ‘More Than Scores: An Analysis of Why and How Parents Choose Private Schools’. It found that academic results did not even factor in the top ten reasons parents choose non-government schools.

Earlier research goes further. A study published in 1997 by David Figlio and Joe Stone entitled ‘School Choice and Student Performance: Are Private Schools Really Better?’ found that parents may still choose to send their child to a non-government school even if there are no academic advantages.

As Figlio and Stone found, parents were flocking to the non-government school sector because they tended to provide their students with a more disciplined environment, a religious education, or a greater opportunity to participate in extracurricular sports.

This is precisely because parents think about much more than just academic achievement when choosing a school. The Australian literature also overwhelmingly supports this. ‘Factors Affecting School Choice’, a report from the Independent Schools Council of Australia, found that the most important reasons as to why parents chose to send their child to nongovernment schools were the good facilities, good teachers, and the supportive and caring environment.

And a study by the Australian Council for Educational Research found that the most common factor influencing parents when choosing whether to send their child to a government or non-government school was ‘the extent to which the school embraced traditional values to do with discipline, religious or moral values, the traditions of the school itself, and the requirement that a uniform be worn’.

Again, academic achievement did not feature as the most significant factor. This is in recognition of the fact that it is no longer acceptable for schools to only equip their students with knowledge and skills.

Our world is highly competitive, fast-paced and constantly changing. To provide stability, parents are turning to schools they believe will give their children the best opportunity to succeed while promoting traditional values in a supportive and disciplined environment.

IT IS NO LONGER ACCEPTABLE FOR SCHOOLS TO ONLY EQUIP THEIR STUDENTS WITH KNOWLEDGE AND SKILLS. WE DEMAND MORE

School choice comes down to one simple thing: parents want to be able to choose a school that best matches the needs of their child and their own values. This may mean they choose a single-sex school, on the basis that they believe the educational and social outcomes will be greater for their child in that environment. They may prefer a school espousing religious values that mirror their own, as opposed to a secular one, a feature of all Australian government schools. They may select a special school for their disabled child because they feel that school can better cater for their specific needs.

And they may choose to send their child to the same school that they attended, their parents attended, and their grandparents attended purely on the basis that family and tradition is important to them above all else.

It is unacceptable for any organisation or government to decide that none of these reasons are acceptable. It is the right of the parent—informed by their own values and their own priorities—to make the decisions they believe are best for their children. Even the UN recognises this, and have enshrined it in Article Thirteen of the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights, which commits all signatories, of which Australia is one, ‘to have respect for the liberty of parents … to choose for their children schools, other than those established by public authorities … to ensure the religious and moral education of their children in conformity with their own convictions’.

Education is more than academia. If that were not the case, the controversy surrounding the ideological nature of the National Curriculum would not exist. All aspects of the education system whether they be the subjects enshrined in the National Curriculum, the principles upheld by the schools, or the textbooks used in the classroom—are value-laden. It is for this reason that parents must have the definitive power to choose what these values are (at least to the best of their abilities), as they will ultimately influence their children’s future values and decisions.

A major strength of nongovernment schools is that they are directly accountable to parental values. If they stray from the ideas important to their community, parents will inevitably withdraw their children and search for a more suitable alternative.

School choice empowers parents to control their child’s education and the values they are being taught in schools. The fact that we have an education system which gives parents the power to choose what is best for their children is something to be celebrated, not lamented.