Australian (ASX) Stock Market Forum

Economic implications of a SARS/Coronavirus outbreak

One has to wonder about how the economic systems around the world will hold up as the COVID situation deteriorates.

Debt defaults, widespread unrest, collapse of financial institutions, potential breakdown of infrastructure.
South Africa is in deep trouble as is Brazil.
https://www.mckinsey.com/business-functions/risk/our-insights/covid-19-implications-for-business

It depends a lot on who wins the US election in my view.

If it's Trump then there will be a lot of chaos and disorder, if Biden, who knows but one hopes that he'll find a way to bring the Western world together more cooperatively and not just run a US first policy.
 
It depends a lot on who wins the US election in my view.

If it's Trump then there will be a lot of chaos and disorder, if Biden, who knows but one hopes that he'll find a way to bring the Western world together more cooperatively and not just run a US first policy.

Don't know if this egg can be unscrambled.:( I think the last 4 years have caused a major reset of world thinking around US reliability as a leader. I can't see them being trusted ever again. I suspect that the next 4 months will be diabolical in the US in terms of COVID 19 impact. It has just gotten completely out of hand and in the current situation it seems impossible to contain. So how the US can get on top of its own problems let alone leading teh world seems a huge ask.

And I don't even want to think what could happen if Trump loses the election and then decides to play hell with any handover.
 
Ok my background is developmental economics/employment relations and geopolitics/governance:

This withdrawal from the global system was already underway pre-trump. He's just kicked it into overdrive.

If you have an afternoon or a few hours spare, any/all of these are worth a watch to understand what's going on:

Here's from way back in 2014:


A 2018 update:


And another update after that:


If you're going to watch them, watch them in the order I've listed.

The long & the short of it is that shale oil (fracking) has severed the only thing that's actually been tying america to the global system for several decades. They were already in the process of retreating back into isolationism, trump's just accelerated the process.

Historically, we're retreating back into something far more normal where we all just worry about ourselves. What's happening is literally decades overdue.
 
Ok my background is developmental economics/employment relations and geopolitics/governance:

This withdrawal from the global system was already underway pre-trump. He's just kicked it into overdrive.

If you have an afternoon or a few hours spare, any/all of these are worth a watch to understand what's going on:

Here's from way back in 2014:


A 2018 update:


And another update after that:


If you're going to watch them, watch them in the order I've listed.

The long & the short of it is that shale oil (fracking) has severed the only thing that's actually been tying america to the global system for several decades. They were already in the process of retreating back into isolationism, trump's just accelerated the process.

Historically, we're retreating back into something far more normal where we all just worry about ourselves. What's happening is literally decades overdue.

And may not always be that bad, having cheap junk to throw away and fill landfill in the West has limited advantage the inevitable day the Kmart buyer of junk becomes unemployed and his relative wealth is redistributed in China or Bangladesh..
 
The notion of putting ones citizens first should be mandatory for elected leaders, anything else is treasonous..yet while we glorify anzac, we are selling ourselves to the lowest denominator and no one raises a voice, or is dismissed as racist...
 
The notion of putting ones citizens first should be mandatory for elected leaders, anything else is treasonous..yet while we glorify anzac, we are selling ourselves to the lowest denominator and no one raises a voice, or is dismissed as farcright...yet with covid, suddenly it is ok to be even be intrastate racist and dob a victorian neighbour
the irony..anyway have to live with this whether I like it or not
 
Historically, we're retreating back into something far more normal where we all just worry about ourselves. What's happening is literally decades overdue.
Change is constant.
Zeihan has a Western-centric view of the world.
The shift to Asia has been historically rapid given neither China nor India have won any wars to exert regional strength.
US oil independence is a bit of a red herring here. The world is awash with cheap energy. Unfortunately LTO is not cheap.
 
Ok my background is developmental economics/employment relations and geopolitics/governance:

This withdrawal from the global system was already underway pre-trump. He's just kicked it into overdrive.

If you have an afternoon or a few hours spare, any/all of these are worth a watch to understand what's going on:

Here's from way back in 2014:


A 2018 update:


And another update after that:


If you're going to watch them, watch them in the order I've listed.

The long & the short of it is that shale oil (fracking) has severed the only thing that's actually been tying america to the global system for several decades. They were already in the process of retreating back into isolationism, trump's just accelerated the process.

Historically, we're retreating back into something far more normal where we all just worry about ourselves. What's happening is literally decades overdue.



I just watched parts of it. I suppose if the Americans are going to abandon us and we must fend for ourselves; then Australia should do a deal with the British ASAP, if it can be done. We can ensure food and energy security for Britain; if they can ensure military security for us. Otherwise we better start building up a significant military capacity, a capacity that considers nuclear weapons.

As it stands: Australia and the USA have the ANZUS treaty; and the USA is in NATO. So if Australia goes to war, the Americans back us, which will bring the Europeans in also.

Anyway; this is off topic and we shouldn't be discussing military defence strategies and alliances here. Back to business, I say ;)
 
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From a personal perspective, which is someone under pension age, but above employable age, who is self funded.
This is certainly a period of eroded wealth, no welfare assistance, minimal dividends, minimal interest = minimal income, so it is a case of burning capital.
It isn't a problem because I have capital, but it should be food for thought for those who are looking at becoming self funded, it is a worst case scenario at the moment and probably a good base line for the amount of money required to be self funded.:2twocents
 
From a personal perspective, which is someone under pension age, but above employable age, who is self funded.
This is certainly a period of eroded wealth, no welfare assistance, minimal dividends, minimal interest = minimal income, so it is a case of burning capital.
It isn't a problem because I have capital, but it should be food for thought for those who are looking at becoming self funded, it is a worst case scenario at the moment and probably a good base line for the amount of money required to be self funded.:2twocents

I really feel sorry for self-funded retires in this crisis.

No real support from the government at all; particularly if you have a property or two that you rely on the rental income to survive, where the tenants can't pay the rent.
 
I'm thinking that anything which had passed its' peak anyway, due to technology or simply being outdated / old, may well never resume whereas without the virus it would have declined far more gradually over however long.

Retail is an obvious area there. Now that even those who were previously reluctant, older people mostly, have given online ago it seems reasonable to expect that at least some will stick with it. Physical shop trading volumes won't go back to pre-pandemic levels.

The entertainment industry is another area where I think that may occur. For those bands and other performers who are passed their peak but were still touring, well I wonder how many will bother getting going again? And how many will decide that now that they've been forced to stop and have become accustomed to doing whatever they're doing instead, that's it they're done with standing on a stage, indeed they're done as such, and it's all over now?

There would likely be some in far more normal jobs who think similarly. They've been forced to stop doing whatever, they're near retirement anyway, so can they really be bothered getting going again? Or is that it, game over?

Cruising's another one where it's hard to see there not being at least some permanent damage. For those who just wanted a holiday and don't really care if it's a cruise or if it's some other sort of trip, well there's a lot of negative publicity for the entire concept out of all this.

The big one though, more significant than the rest, I wonder about is the concept of CBD head offices in big buildings? Historically that's been the goal of many, get promoted to head office, but I wonder if now the opposite is true? Will the best talent be seeking to avoid such places unless paid enough to persuade them? Is a CBD office now a liability rather than an asset?

As a case in point, well NAB have mothballed entire office towers and yet they're still functioning as a bank. That raises a lot of questions as to why, exactly, they'd go back to those buildings with all the costs involved and so on? Especially so if they find some other bank trying to poach their best staff with an offer of permanent work from home. Etc, same with any business. WFH is now more than proven for purely desk-based roles and any employee who wants to do it and is worth employing is going to be using it as a bargaining point.

Another one I wonder about is locations. Eg Melbourne and Sydney versus the smaller capitals or anywhere regional? The whole virus experience would seem to be a negative for the bigger cities especially and I'm thinking that at least some will want out. That then comes back to employers - if someone in Melbourne wants to keep their star employees then they might have to just accept that they now live in regional WA and will never be turning up to the office physically.

That then has implications for real estate and house prices if fewer people have an actual need to live anywhere specific and particularly in the big cities. No doubt there's quite a few Victorians who over the coming weeks will browse real estate websites looking at homes in regional areas or interstate.

And so on. I'm basically thinking that anything where there was an existing trend due to technology or age etc has just been given a huge push along.

I've no doubt that I'll be wrong to considerable extent, we're not going to abandon the entire CBD or anything like that and not every 50 year old singer is going to throw in the towel at this point, but I'm thinking that we'll see some changes with that sort of thing. If even 5% or 10% shift then that's a huge impact on things like office vacancies and so on.

In short, I'm thinking that some will adopt the forced changes permanently. They've been forced to see a different way, a way that doesn't involve them trawling through shops in search of something, working in a CBD office or standing on stage bashing out their hits from the 1980's or whatever and I'd be surprised if some don't stick with the change permanently. :2twocents

You raise some good points here. Physical store retail is an interesting one. I'm surprised at how well it has held up over the last 10-15 years. I was expecting it to shrink some time ago, but they keep building new shopping malls and even now they are continuing. The shopping mall industry is doubling down, taking this time of low occupancy to renovate and expand, which surprised me. We'll see if that gamble pays off. Obviously you don't think so, I'm really not sure, but I lean towards agreeing with you at least to some extent.

Working from home, for the most part, I don't see as a significant change unless you're in the office rental industry. The same work gets done, but people do it from home instead of in the office. I know people already doing it and as you'd expect there's a lot of 'hit the keyboard every 20 minutes so it looks like I'm doing something', which I was seeing until a couple of days again when they literally made socialising illegal again (insane!). The kinks will no doubt be ironed out, accountability measures will be brought in, and without commuting etc things will be more efficient, but I don't see that being a radical change; if you, say, work in a nursery growing plants, you still need to go to work. If you work in a factory or restaurant (actually, that industry may shrink) you can't work from home. If you can work from home because you work in an office/call centre/etc, you're still doing the same job and the business/industry essentially carries on as usual. It'll change the way many people live their lives but won't really change any industries, I don't expect.

At the upper level of the corporate world, the people I know are not scared of the virus, they are career-driven people who tend to be tunnel-visioned and somewhat ruthless. Nothing gets in their way, they will work wherever the money is. The office grunts may be working from home but they'll still want to be in the top floor office of the skyscraper. But you're right, there could be a 10+% reduction which would be significant in the short term for the office industry. I don't really see it as that big a deal though.

No doubt some people will go into retirement a few years earlier, I think that's a no brainer.

Singers... meh, I don't think it's that big a deal what any individual artist does, there's always literally a thousand people desperate to take their place. The interesting thing will be what the masses want. Will there be a reduced demand in the long term for being part of a crowd, whether it's a concert, sports game, etc, or a festival. I have no interest in spectator sports, but I understand the relevance to the economy. I think it's a shame that the most popular thing to watch is a mob of scandalous meat heads tossing a ball around, but whatever they're watching, I hope people aren't permanently too scared to do it. The local pub isn't what it once was, and hasn't really been worth going to for a long while, but it'll be interesting to see how that goes.

Something very relevant to me is travel. I've on average crossed an international border about once per month over the last six years, and on average I stay in a city/village/town for about a week (this lockdown is utter torture for me, I haven't been in one county for this long in over 6 years, let alone one state/province!). I think it will take a long time for international tourism to recover and if it does I'm sure it won't happen quickly. International travel had become absurdly cheap, I think I wasn't paying much more than $100 on average for my flights. What's possible in 6, 12, 24 and 48 months will be very interesting, as will what people want (I'd love to see it as possible as ever with a great reduction in demand, but I doubt the former).

Along with what people want to do and what we as a planet allowing, I think we will have the reality of economic devastation far beyond what most people expect.
 
Along with what people want to do and what we as a planet allowing, I think we will have the reality of economic devastation far beyond what most people expect.

It certainly wont be a cruisey as it was, that is for sure, "normal" will be somewhat different IMO.
 
Singers... meh, I don't think it's that big a deal what any individual artist does, there's always literally a thousand people desperate to take their place. The interesting thing will be what the masses want. Will there be a reduced demand in the long term for being part of a crowd, whether it's a concert, sports game, etc, or a festival.

The way I'm thinking of that one is that there's an assortment of artists who were at their peak in the 1990's, 80's or even 70's who still tour and who still attract a reasonable crowd.

To the extent that they say stuff it, I'm done, my thinking is that whilst there's a million or more aspiring musicians to take their place, those replacements won't be attracting the same individuals to their shows. Someone aged 50+ probably isn't going to turn up to see some pop singer who's younger than their own kids. etc. If that's the case then it narrows the market for the live music industry overall, it chops the oldies off basically.

Another way a similar effect would occur would be if many overseas based acts simply narrowed their future touring plans. Those from the US tour the US and Canada but that's it, they're not going further than that. Or those from the UK tour the UK and a few European countries but they'll give the idea of flying to the other side of the world a miss. etc. That's another way that the overall scale of the live music industry could be reduced for an extended period well after "normal" returns.

Reason I mention it is that live entertainment is one thing that's extremely hard hit, it's literally gone to zero so far as anything major is concerned, and all up it does employ quite a few people. It's not just those on stage but it's all the people behind the scenes and all up there's quite a lot of people employed.

It also has a significant cultural place in society and having 20,000 people in an indoor venue is one thing that would be symbolic of "we're back to normal".

It'll come back as such I don't doubt, I'm just seeing it as something which has the potential to come back in a diminished form and not return to what it otherwise would have been for a very long time.

It's a random thought - I could well be wrong. Time will tell and to the extent there's a moment of proof, it'll be when all those bands who tend to tour once every 3 - 4 years do in fact turn up in Australia. Until it happens though, well I have some doubts.

As a declaration of bias - well I've seen an order of magnitude more live concerts than I've ever watched professional sports of any kind. Along with travel, it's really the only thing I can't do at present that I'd normally do. So I have some personal bias there in using it as a measure but I do see it as being of some relevance - it would be somewhat symbolic of "normal" to see Rod Laver Arena (Melbourne) with a capacity crowd and a major international act on stage. :2twocents
 
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The way I'm thinking of that one is that there's an assortment of artists who were at their peak in the 1990's, 80's or even 70's who still tour and who still attract a reasonable crowd.

To the extent that they say stuff it, I'm done, my thinking is that whilst there's a million or more aspiring musicians to take their place, those replacements won't be attracting the same individuals to their shows. Someone aged 50+ probably isn't going to turn up to see some pop singer who's younger than their own kids. etc. If that's the case then it narrows the market for the live music industry overall, it chops the oldies off basically.

Ah, good point. I hadn't considered that. I'm not sure how big a deal it will be, my guess is that those 50+ year olds will find another form of entertainment, whatever that is. It may transfer some business from that industry to the opera or stage theatre or cinemas or something, or you may be right, combined with fear of crowds they may convert to home-based entertainment, spending less money.

Another way a similar effect would occur would be if many overseas based acts simply narrowed their future touring plans. Those from the US tour the US and Canada but that's it, they're not going further than that. Or those from the UK tour the UK and a few European countries but they'll give the idea of flying to the other side of the world a miss. etc. That's another way that the overall scale of the live music industry could be reduced for an extended period well after "normal" returns.

Possibly, but for the most part I'd guess it would be similar to the above, those people will instead go to theatre, local performers, maybe even horse races, comedy shows, etc. You may be right though, it'll be interesting.

Reason I mention it is that live entertainment is one thing that's extremely hard hit, it's literally gone to zero so far as anything major is concerned, and all up it does employ quite a few people. It's not just those on stage but it's all the people behind the scenes and all up there's quite a lot of people employed.

Yes, I totally understand it's not just the performer, which is why I shrugged it off saying there will be other performers, but I hadn't considered the oldies leaving the market earlier. I don't think it'll be a big deal, but we can only speculate at this point and you might be right.

It also has a significant cultural place in society and having 20,000 people in an indoor venue is one thing that would be symbolic of "we're back to normal".

I want that! I'm concerned that it won't be happening again. If that's the new normal, the world has taken a very, very dark turn.

As a declaration of bias - well I've seen an order of magnitude more live concerts than I've ever watched professional sports of any kind. Along with travel, it's really the only thing I can't do at present that I'd normally do. So I have some personal bias there in using it as a measure but I do see it as being of some relevance - it would be somewhat symbolic of "normal" to see Rod Laver Arena (Melbourne) with a capacity crowd and a major international act on stage. :2twocents

I'm seeing most people using personal bias even more than usual this year. People who still have their jobs think nothing has changed other than petrol being cheap. People in Melbourne who have lost their jobs, will lose their homes and can't visit friends think the sky has fallen and we'll all be dead this year. If something is gone which they don't care about (like me with the AFL season if I had the normal level of personal bias) it's a good thing, good riddance to that annoying thing I don't like, but if it's something they love, losing it is a travesty for the whole world, and how dare anyone suggest it stop? 'Anyone who does anything I wouldn't do is a selfish bastard' but 'Anyone who tells me I shouldn't do something I like to do is a fanatical, paranoid, totalitarian'.

There's also a big case of 'Anyone else who did something wrong is bad, and I'm good! Those terrible Melbourne troglodytes are appalling, they deserve their lockdown, every one of them! They're not as good as us Location X folks!' when of course the majority of people in the majority places are much the same as each other. This isn't just an Australia thing, the same concept exists within and between countries all over the world.

I'm aware of my own position of probably bias, in that I've lost virtually everything I had, literally right down to the shirts which used to be on my back, my entire way of life, my ability to be on the same continent as the people I've spent the last few years with and had no intention of being away from (etc etc etc), but I do keep my own situation out of any analysis and I really see the economic and social problems causing so much more death and misery to the world than the virus itself ever would have (and we'll still get a huge chunk of the virus issue, mild as it is, anyway).
 
Play the ball, not the player.

I think we follow through with our national strategy; if it is my call.

Australian citizens have been warned for months to come home. They stay abroad now, or they pay for a complete lockdown quarantine on return. Our domestic borders remain welded closed until we have the virus under control in all states and territories; there is no international travel for the foreseeable future.

We either stay the course and protect our domestic economies, within the national economic interest, to open up without taking steps back, or we don't do it at all.
 
Sdajii and Smurf are both emotionally compromised on these sort of themes/topics .

In what way?

I have noted bias in that I'd like to see a return of live music and have stated that the lack of that, and the inability to travel, are the main impacts of the current situation on me personally.

I have not suggested that anyone ought be put in danger via COVID-19 in order to facilitate my hope that live entertainment returns.

Nor have I suggested that $ billions of taxpayer funds should be used to facilitate it happening.

What I am doing is simply raising it as an industry of significance, primarily culturally but to some extent also economically, which could plausibly suffer long term impacts and fail to return to "normal" anytime soon.

I could be wrong and have acknowledged that. So could anyone else on this subject given that it's a subjective assessment of what's going to happen, it's not something which can be calculated with precision or even based on past precedent since there isn't one recent enough to be of relevance in the world in which we live today.

It's not like a market crash where it can be compared to all previous crashes on fundamentals and technicals. There are numerous past precedents to compare with.

Nor is it like an infrastructure project where the costs of various options can be calculated with reasonable certainty and the cheapest options identified. Unless someone's proposing to build a world first then for most things there are plenty of past projects which give a range of likely costs and that's enough to determine that it is or isn't worth proceeding to a more detailed assessment of a specific proposal. Nobody needs a detailed design to conclude that a bridge across Bass Strait is an economic dud idea for example, there's been more than enough bridges built around the world with their costs known for that to be immediately apparent.

The subject by its very nature is a speculative one and to the extent anyone here is compromised, it would be if they argued that anything was certain in an environment where very clearly it isn't. I don't see that being the case.

All that can really be said at present is that we've got Australia's borders shut, we've got some state borders shut, a lockdown in Melbourne and that overseas the US has seen a breakout in the infection rate with the death rate now also turning up. For other countries it's mixed - I'm focusing on the US simply due to its degree of influence. Where that all ends economically though, well that's anyone's guess since there's a lot of things in the mix beyond pure economics.

What happens next is speculative at best even for seemingly trivial matters. As just one example - would anyone like to predict whether normal New Year's Eve celebrations will go ahead this year or not? For that matter, will we even see someone dressed as Santa in shopping centres and so on for Christmas? Anyone's guess at this stage....... :2twocents
 
In what way?

I have noted bias in that I'd like to see a return of live music and have stated that the lack of that, and the inability to travel, are the main impacts of the current situation on me personally.

I have not suggested that anyone ought be put in danger via COVID-19 in order to facilitate my hope that live entertainment returns.

Nor have I suggested that $ billions of taxpayer funds should be used to facilitate it happening.

What I am doing is simply raising it as an industry of significance, primarily culturally but to some extent also economically, which could plausibly suffer long term impacts and fail to return to "normal" anytime soon.

I could be wrong and have acknowledged that. So could anyone else on this subject given that it's a subjective assessment of what's going to happen, it's not something which can be calculated with precision or even based on past precedent since there isn't one recent enough to be of relevance in the world in which we live today.

It's not like a market crash where it can be compared to all previous crashes on fundamentals and technicals. There are numerous past precedents to compare with.

Nor is it like an infrastructure project where the costs of various options can be calculated with reasonable certainty and the cheapest options identified. Unless someone's proposing to build a world first then for most things there are plenty of past projects which give a range of likely costs and that's enough to determine that it is or isn't worth proceeding to a more detailed assessment of a specific proposal. Nobody needs a detailed design to conclude that a bridge across Bass Strait is an economic dud idea for example, there's been more than enough bridges built around the world with their costs known for that to be immediately apparent.

The subject by its very nature is a speculative one and to the extent anyone here is compromised, it would be if they argued that anything was certain in an environment where very clearly it isn't. I don't see that being the case.

All that can really be said at present is that we've got Australia's borders shut, we've got some state borders shut, a lockdown in Melbourne and that overseas the US has seen a breakout in the infection rate with the death rate now also turning up. For other countries it's mixed - I'm focusing on the US simply due to its degree of influence. Where that all ends economically though, well that's anyone's guess since there's a lot of things in the mix beyond pure economics.

What happens next is speculative at best even for seemingly trivial matters. As just one example - would anyone like to predict whether normal New Year's Eve celebrations will go ahead this year or not? For that matter, will we even see someone dressed as Santa in shopping centres and so on for Christmas? Anyone's guess at this stage....... :2twocents

I just read your entire post.

1. I don't think there will be live festivals and concerts this year.

2. I don't think building a bridge across the Bass Strait is a good idea: I was actually watching this tonight for a few minutes.



Not saying that it should be the same design of course :) There isn't enough economic activity between the states to justify the expenditure, in my opinion. Could be wrong though.

3. Are we calling off Christmas?

I will let you have the last post for this posting session because I am a gentleman. Past my bedtime now.
 
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