Australian (ASX) Stock Market Forum

Dump it Here

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Gringotts Bank said:
Can you show me a YT clip of someone expert in selling?
Click to expand...

Nope, let me ask you the same question.
"Can you show me a YT clip of someone expert in trading?

My last post..

Last post on this subject
You hear it all the time on TV about a person dumb founded that they got scammed, they so intelligent how did it happen to them. I say easy, I've posted why it happens in this 'Dump it here' thread, also it's in the eBook, let me suggest that you download & have a read.

Rehashing
I've had a lot of questions about a topic & strangely enough "I've already posted about the subject", Selling & Sales Professional "is a case in point" it's all in my eBook.

Skate.
 
Gringotts Bank said:
Thanks I'll have a look, but if I see them trotting out rehearsed material, postures and mannerisms that's not what I'm after.

edit: yeh that's not my style, thanks.
Click to expand...

Or Brian Tracey, Tony Robbins. Depends who's style you like there are heaps.

Grant Cardone...he is quite aggressive and full on but there is a youtube clip of him 'a live sales call by Grant Cardone' he's reportedly worth over 300 mil so must be doing something right.
 
Gringotts Bank said:
eeek. Inauthentic. Inauthentic is unattractive (to me), no matter how well rehearsed. However it probably appeals to some people.

Now nod and smile, now raise your left eyebrow. :(
Click to expand...

The first issue is that there must be some want or desire that can be elicited. If you don't like TV and never watch it, selling you a TV is not going to happen. Hence this low-end selling is predicated on pure volume. TV advertising is a good example of this and still very successful. An example would be fat, lazy people: stand on this and let your fat jiggle for 5mins a week and you can lose 10kg.

Possibly if you thought of 'selling' as a spectrum. You have the lower quality end and the high quality end. The lower end is exemplified above.

At the high quality end you have as an example doctors and lawyers. There are of course many other examples: CEO's [think Enron], Start-ups looking for funding/investment, Franchising, etc.

Doctors: You have a want or desire to 'get better'. Now there are all manner of treatments for any number of complaints. One of the most important, if not the most important, is 'the placebo'. It is the doctor's responsibility to sell to you, that whatever treatment recommended, has a highly positive prognosis. Your confidence [whether you have bought in] level either strengthens or weakens this powerful effect. The placebo effect is sold to you.

Lawyers: operate on a number of levels depending on the end audience, viz. Judge or jury. The jury is the most obvious and easiest to sell to. There are two versions that you, the jury can buy: the prosecution's version or the defence. Trials are won or lost by the quality of the salesman [lawyer] highlighting strengths, explaining weaknesses and selling [his version] of the story.

Part, or most of their success is predicated upon being the expert. You as the layperson are outside of your comfort zone. So easy is it to manipulate and sell to laypersons, that extensive professional rules [ethical requirements] for various professions have been created to prevent exploitation of the layperson and their being fleeced.

The analogy with the 'market' is also accurate. Laypersons, novice traders/investors, fall victim to the professionals consistently.

jog on
duc
 
ducati916 said:
The first issue is that there must be some want or desire that can be elicited. If you don't like TV and never watch it, selling you a TV is not going to happen. Hence this low-end selling is predicated on pure volume. TV advertising is a good example of this and still very successful. An example would be fat, lazy people: stand on this and let your fat jiggle for 5mins a week and you can lose 10kg.

Possibly if you thought of 'selling' as a spectrum. You have the lower quality end and the high quality end. The lower end is exemplified above.

At the high quality end you have as an example doctors and lawyers. There are of course many other examples: CEO's [think Enron], Start-ups looking for funding/investment, Franchising, etc.

Doctors: You have a want or desire to 'get better'. Now there are all manner of treatments for any number of complaints. One of the most important, if not the most important, is 'the placebo'. It is the doctor's responsibility to sell to you, that whatever treatment recommended, has a highly positive prognosis. Your confidence [whether you have bought in] level either strengthens or weakens this powerful effect. The placebo effect is sold to you.

Lawyers: operate on a number of levels depending on the end audience, viz. Judge or jury. The jury is the most obvious and easiest to sell to. There are two versions that you, the jury can buy: the prosecution's version or the defence. Trials are won or lost by the quality of the salesman [lawyer] highlighting strengths, explaining weaknesses and selling [his version] of the story.

Part, or most of their success is predicated upon being the expert. You as the layperson are outside of your comfort zone. So easy is it to manipulate and sell to laypersons, that extensive professional rules [ethical requirements] for various professions have been created to prevent exploitation of the layperson and their being fleeced.

The analogy with the 'market' is also accurate. Laypersons, novice traders/investors, fall victim to the professionals consistently.

jog on
duc
Click to expand...

ducati916, congratulations on an excellent post, expressing myself succinctly eludes me at times, I get bogged down explaining the the finer uninteresting details of a question or post.

Skate.
 
I’ve always found that creating a desire and satisfying it gives me the best results in a sale.

The last car I bought the sales guy said take it home but as you swing onto the freeway hit it.
I did just that —- wow really nice—-I certainly had the desire—-I called my wife from the car.

Hi honey I’m just driving the car we are buying home —- we will shoot out for tea!

Next day I told the sales guy that I loved it and would return it in a few hrs.
Now he had the desire to sell it to me.

I dropped it off and made an appointment for Saturday morning.
I’d also made an appointment with another dealer I knew personally and was the guy that I bought my last car from. The dealership knew of him I made sure he was in our conversations.

Saturday
I want the car
He wants the sale
To close we need an agreed price.
His leverage —- he has what I want.
My leverage —- I have alternatives.

We jockey around with the I’ll take your offer to my sales manager
3 times knocking off a few grand here and there adding some extras

Then a stroke of luck in the negotiations
My friend George calls me wondering where I am.
He is in my speed dial along with the dealership name.
It’s in the middle of negotiation so I show the face of the phone to the small group now trying to get me over the line. I answered the phone in front of them and said I was just finalising a meeting close buy and would be there shortly.

Now I was prepared to lose the deal—-
They weren’t——-knowing that if I leave then I probably won’t come back
After all if it was them they wouldn’t!

So I deducted a further $8,600 which reached the figure I wanted to pay,
20 mins passed and I got up to go to see George.

Then —— Done it’s yours as long as we can demo the car for 6 weeks
Sure as long as you don’t clock more than 1500k

It was October took delivery in at Xmas.
Both desires are filled
Mine every time I pry it off my wife!
That was 2 years ago.

Fill both sides desires —- win win.
 
Question
Yesterday, I asked one question & received one reply "Should we limit & confine the 'Dump it here' thread to trading topics only as trading topics on the "Aussie Stock Forum" is not in vogue at the moment"

The answer was YES, keep the thread for trading.

Off topic
It appears on face value that some posts go were going off topic, not so. My posts are designed to be thought provoking, stimulating with a touch of emotion thrown in, everything traders need to be better what they do & why they do it.

Drivers
As traders we need to be aware of the drivers of our emotions so we make better trading decisions. The market manipulates us without our knowledge, we are oblivious to it.

Stick with me
If you stick with me I'll try & tie it all together with stories, experiences, conditioning. The posts for your entertainment & enjoyment, I know all this crap, so it won't help me you may even learn without knowing that you are, hopefully you will feel like your along for the ride. (well that's the goal)

@Joe Blow remarked “All non-trading/investing posts can be split off into a new thread at any time. There could easily be two separate Dump it Here threads with different titles and purposes”

I want to explain
Some of my posts were being removed from the "Dump it here' thread & placed rightly so under threads for the topic being discussed as it appeared posters were going off topic. I quickly posted a disclaimer to the relevant posters to quickly to explain the situation (a copy of the disclaimer is below)

Disclaimer
To be polite, Joe has removed my posts from the 'Dump it here' thread killing further conversation on the topic

The big picture
After explaining my long term strategy for the 'Dump it here' thread Joe understood the process behind my thinking & quickly restored those post, giving me additional latitude for the further develop of the thread.

Skate.
 
tech/a said:
Peter/Skate

Aren’t you concerned that you’ll perform
At about the average of the index?
If your heavy in a few sectors—-the average of those sectors.

I see culling is designed to capture out performers.
Click to expand...

It's a Numbers Game (pure mathematics)
System trading is having the knowledge and skill to recognise low risk, high profit potential, trades. I also aim to outperform the Index. I don’t see out performance difficult to do, because I have a plan to use to my advantage.

(a) I can enter and exit the market more swiftly.
(b) I can spread my risk over 40 stronger stocks from 500.
(c) I don't have to be in the market at all, when the profit-making opportunities are not there.
(d) Don't restrict your strategy like a hand of poker, keep rotating the stock till your have a strong profitable portfolio.
(e) I use protection, but I don't use a handbrake by taking profits too early or restricting my portfolio size.

It's all about risk
I look for trades that allow me to trade with a minimum of risk. I also look for trades that have the potential to generate excellent profits. Many traders have trouble working out if they want to trade the longer-term moves, yet at the same time they want to strangle the strategy using very tight stops making them feel more comfortable in doing so.

Miss the big moves
This thinking will drive you distraction as the two are incompatible, and it will leave you with small losses as you watch the big, profitable moves take off without them. It is my belief that markets, from time to time, make large moves, and that the big money is to be made trading the big moves. Your trading strategies are your specific rules for trading, which must flow logically from your trading philosophy and aims.

Skate.
 
How to ask a good question
(a) Consider if your post adds value to the discussion.
(b) When expressing an alternative view, start off by saying “In my opinion …” and try to focus on the issues rather than person.
(c) We are all wordsmiths to some degree & it's easy to incite an emotional, knee-jerk response, creating an emotional outburst.

Ambiguity
Most times I’ll make posts with ambiguity in mind, other times they are cryptic. When members miss the point I'll sometimes give them a little taste of the subject matter. I’ll mess with them, so they better understand manipulation & conditioning, two essential elements they need to understand when it comes to trading. I’ll post & direct the words for the biggest impact, written to achieve a response, allowing me to explain a point they previously didn’t grasp.

Skate.
 
Crowd psychology (crowd behaviour)
We need to understanding crowd psychology as individuals, we tend to behave in an intelligent, controlled manner at least most of the time.

But put us in a group
When we become members of a crowd, however, our behaviour can change quite considerably. Human beings become members of crowds, and follow the crowd, because it gives them a feeling of security. Following a strong leader allows them to feel reassured. Doing what others do helps to combat a fear of uncertainty.

Skate.
 
Traders, trade as a group
We have felt secure being members of different groups all of our lives, and hence we are conditioned to wanting to become a member of a group.

Price is the leader
As members of a crowd, we tend to follow the leader, and to trust the judgement of the leader more than our own judgment. In the case of trading, the leader becomes 'price'.

We are slow on the uptake
Traders tend to respond only to very obvious changes (such as a market downturn of last year, 2018) & not the slow, subtle changes, such as breakouts and retractions. They also become more emotional and impulsive which is not a desirable characteristic of a trader.

It's out of wack at the moment
Buy the growth has now been replaced with sell into the upswing, (why?) because traders are scared & moody at the moment (Chicken Little, the sky is fall mentality)

Skate.
 
Skate said:
It's a Numbers Game (pure mathematics)
System trading is having the knowledge and skill to recognise low risk, high profit potential, trades. I also aim to outperform the Index. I don’t see out performance difficult to do, because I have a plan to use to my advantage.

(a) I can enter and exit the market more swiftly.
(b) I can spread my risk over 40 stronger stocks from 500.
(c) I don't have to be in the market at all, when the profit-making opportunities are not there.
(d) Don't restrict your strategy like a hand of poker, keep rotating the stock till your have a strong profitable portfolio.
(e) I use protection, but I don't use a handbrake by taking profits too early or restricting my portfolio size.

It's all about risk
I look for trades that allow me to trade with a minimum of risk. I also look for trades that have the potential to generate excellent profits. Many traders have trouble working out if they want to trade the longer-term moves, yet at the same time they want to strangle the strategy using very tight stops making them feel more comfortable in doing so.

Miss the big moves
This thinking will drive you distraction as the two are incompatible, and it will leave you with small losses as you watch the big, profitable moves take off without them. It is my belief that markets, from time to time, make large moves, and that the big money is to be made trading the big moves. Your trading strategies are your specific rules for trading, which must flow logically from your trading philosophy and aims.

Skate.
Click to expand...


In the markets, there are [approximately] 10,000 x more events of 0.1% than events of 10%.

Your system [trading] must, in some form, be exposed to and benefit from these non-linear events. Of course there are many ways that this can be accomplished. Examples abound through various threads.

jog on
duc
 
Skate said:
Crowd psychology (crowd behaviour)
We need to understanding crowd psychology as individuals, we tend to behave in an intelligent, controlled manner at least most of the time.

But put us in a group
When we become members of a crowd, however, our behaviour can change quite considerably. Human beings become members of crowds, and follow the crowd, because it gives them a feeling of security. Following a strong leader allows them to feel reassured. Doing what others do helps to combat a fear of uncertainty.

Skate.
Click to expand...

Profiting from 'momentum' based strategies requires that you join [at least for a time] the crowd.

jog on
duc
 
We fail to see
An understanding of 'price' behaviour will help you to understand how traders become mesmerised, how they fail to see the clear warning signs that the market is becoming dangerously overbought.

Want to make some money ?
Such an understanding can make you, and save you, a great deal of money & there are times when a trader must do the exact opposite to what the crowd is doing.

Follow your system
In trading, you need to be able to analyse what 'the price' is doing at any one time, and be prepared to do the opposite should your trading system give you a signal to do so. At the very least, you should exercise the utmost care when you observe extreme price behaviour.

Skate.
 
ducati916 said:
Profiting from 'momentum' based strategies requires that you join [at least for a time] the crowd.

jog on
duc
Click to expand...

ducati916, Trend Following is all about jumping on 'momentum' I'm a believer that if others want to push a price higher it requires that I join them. Knowing when to get off is the hard part of the equation.

Common Reasons for Not Selling (as a system trader)
People have a whole host of reasons they use to justify not exiting a trade when their trading system has given them a clear signal to exit. The following are some of the more common reasons

(a) The positions that has turn down they believe it will go back up again.
(b) They fail to follow their exit signal promptly.

If your stock is weak enough to generate a sell signal, then don't look for excuses, just sell. The money is better off invested in another, stronger stock, if the market conditions permit this.

Skate.
 
Another stupid reasons for not Selling
Shaking my head, traders waiting for a Dividend to be paid no matter what the cost. You need to be conscious of the fact that a stock can fall faster than you may expect, particularly if the market has just experienced a downturn. Waiting for a dividend to be paid can cost you a large sum of money while you wait for a smaller sum.

Trailing Stops
Traders who understand mechanical trading systems, will have a proven method for exiting their trades, using a stop-loss or trailing stop, ensuring their trades are closed when their system signal was given.

Capital preservation
Exiting a position at the correct time preserves your capital. Capital is required to be 'locked & loaded' ready for the next excellent buying opportunity some point in the future.

Skate
 
Investing or trading
As we get older, we look forward to a happy and healthy retirement. We also look forward to a retirement in which we can afford to maintain a high standard of living.

Reality
Sadly for many, however, the dream does not become a reality. In Australia, by the time you get to my age of 65 years, approximately one in six will remain in active employment, one in three will have died, and almost one in two will be relying on the government to support them.

Life is all about money
Money is not everything, and it certainly does not guarantee health or happiness, but it keeps my kids close.

Skate.
 

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