Do you think Oz is backward and racist?

[disarray]

I think we'd be much better off if we thought of each other simply as human, but individuals.

the flaw in this philosophy is the fact that mankind is a social creature. the individual behaves differently in the group. i'm sure having a quiet drink with hitler would have been a pleasant and reasonable affair, stick him front of 100,000 wehrmacht and its a different story.

There have been many intelligent people in history that have commented on the negatives of grouping, whether it be nationalism, religious, socio-economic status etc. I only dismiss it because I believe it brings greater harm than good.

there's positives and negatives to everything. the keyword here is management. everything needs to be analysed and managed, not just left to its own devices and hope everything turns out for the best.

There's nothing wrong with feeling proud, but it so often breeds ignorance which leads to many problems in the world.

so does naive thinking and appeasement.

So the nationalism that you claim makes us special, also preserves what we consider poorer standards in many other cultures?

no our nationalism preserves OUR standards.

It shouldn't make us proud to be Australian, it should just make us sympathetic to women who are oppressed.

why shouldn't it make us proud? our forebears had to fight for our standards against those who would subjugate us and impose unwanted values upon our lifestyle. aren't you proud of them and what they did for us and why they did it?

The fact is that many people do make judgements based only on religion, culture, race, wealth etc. As you said, there are many, many ignorant people in the world. Grouping just encourages it.

how else are you supposed to judge people? it is madness to hold the opinion "oh we shouldn't judge people" because judgement is required to assess whether an individual or a group is a threat to us. thinking there are no threats in the world is laughably naive if you take even the most cursory glace at human history. we're not living in star trek world yet.

We're just one of the better houses on a bad street. Yes, we're better than most, but we still have some way to go. I don't feel proud because I don't think we've yet reached a level to be proud of.

so what level will make you proud? when we lay down our arms and welcome anyone and everyone from anywhere regardless of their ideals and opinions and think if we all sing kumbaya together we can live in a happy rainbow world? you are seriously deluded if you think that is even a remote possiblility.

So now we should ask ourselves why we're special

yes

and how we can change the world to be like us?

no. its not our job to change anyone who doesn't want to be changed but it IS our job to hold fast to our ideals and not change for anyone unless we want to.

our lifestyle is not that unique or special

it is unique and special compared to most of the world. compared to the first world (who are mostly like us anyway) it isn't but that is only a small % of the world. compare to india and china with 1/3 of the planet between them.

I just stated the grouping people, whether it be by nationality, culture, race, religion, wealth etc just leads to greater ignorance.

no it doesn't. it leads to a framework from which to make more informed decisions about potential behaviours and philosophies you will encounter in dealings with those people. its only ignorance if you ignore any further input and hold to your preconceptions, even in the face of contradictory evidence - THAT is prejudice.

Identifying people as groups leads to less importance of the individual, and if the world is to become a better place (as most would perceive to be "better"), then we need to stop thinking in terms of groups.

i disagree. we need to think in terms of groups and commonality and then decrease the granularity to improve. the fact we are all "human" is the last step, not the first. you've got it all backwards - it goes sociology --> culture --> race --> species not the other way round.

I'm not ignorant of human nature, and I know that for many, perhaps most, that it just isn't possible. Humans as a whole are weak, greedy, ignorant etc, but much of this is due to our attitudes and culture, rather than our true nature.

disagree again. its our nature that is the cause of our depravities, and our culture that attempts to hold our nature in check. which is why africa is a complete anarchic sh1thole and australia isn't - we're the same species but a different culture.

They only belong in groups because that is what people think. We're all different? Then don't place people in groups. Grouping people robs them of their identity, it doesn't preserve it.

groups provide identity, structure, framework and belonging. as social animals human beings need these ideals to provide morality, ethics, and other higher principles of behaviour. without a strong framework we have chaos and a descent into survival of the fittest. the individual doesn't possess a framework outside their own desires, that is why the group is so important to provide stability and the possibility for improvement. a hundred individuals pulling in different directions go nowehere, a hundred individuals working in concert can achieve anything.

 

[Mad Jack McMad]

Hi, I reckon Dave Warner summed it up nicely back in the 70s:

I'm Australian, so are you
It doesn't matter if you're Ding or Jew
Just remember, while you're here
You march our march and you drink our beer

http://www.davewarner.com.au/convict.html

 

[Agentm]

I saw this in the headlines today.

What are your views?

Racist, backward: Sol's parting shot

http://business.theage.com.au/business/racist-backward-sols-parting-shot-20090526-bl3p.html

Controversial former Telstra chief Sol Trujillo has taken a swipe at Australia, describing the nation he called home for four years as racist, backward and like "stepping back in time''.

Asked in a BBC interview whether there was racism in Australia, Mr Trujillo said: "I think it was evident in a lot of ways with me personally but more importantly with others.''

His comments have shocked some, including the head of the American Chamber of Commerce in Australia.

"I was quite flabbergasted to hear his comments,'' said the chamber's chief executive, Charles Blunt. "And I was quite shocked.''

And Victorian Premier John Brumby said the comments appeared to be nothing more than sour grapes. "I don't know what he's talking about, frankly."

racist!!

whats that wetback saying again?

 

[GumbyLearner]

The recent attacks on Indian students in Melbourne are a disgrace.

Bollywood legend shuns Queensland honour over attacks


Bollywood superstar Amitabh Bachchan has turned down an honorary doctorate from an Australian university to protest a recent spate of attacks on Indian students studying there.

The attacks, which Indian media have called raced-based, have caused some diplomatic discomfort, with the Indian Government summoning the Australian ambassador last week to convey its concern and urge action.

The prime ministers of the two countries also discussed the attacks that have dominated newspaper and television headlines in India during the past week.

Bachchan, arguably India's biggest superstar, said in a blog post on Saturday he would not accept the honour from the Queensland University of Technology, a decision he said he took after consulting readers of his blog.

"My conscience is profoundly unsettled at the moment and there seems to be a moral disjuncture between the suffering of these students and my own approbation," Bachchan, 66, wrote in a letter to the university which he posted on his blog.

"Under the prevailing circumstances I find it inappropriate at this juncture, to accept this decoration."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/05/31/2585725.htm?section=justin

 

[Timmy]

The recent attacks on Indian students in Melbourne are a disgrace.

Agreed.

Are Indians being targetted or is it just a general attack on anyone who isn't an Aussie? I'm thinking these bogan morons doing the attacking wouldn't be capable of discriminating by race etc.

 

[gav]

Any attack on a defenseless person is a disgrace, regardless of race.

There are 47,000 Indian students in Melbourne. That is a significant number. How do we know that every attack on an Indian student was racially motivated, and just not one of chance? (ie. person alone on train an easy target, regardless of race)

How many Indian students have been attacked? The real picture would be shown if we knew what % of the Indian students were attacked compared to the % of non-Indian students attacked. But the outcome probably wouldn't be very news-worthy...

 

[disarray]

how about we find out who is committing the attacks first hey? you'll notice no names or descriptions are released. the indian blogosphere is alight with anti-australian sentiment and endless screaming about the evil white australians when many of these attacks are committed by africans and arab muslims (particularly in south west sydney). yet white australia cops the abuse and because of our own piss weak political correctness we wear this abuse to protect scumbags who terrorise not only indians but the entire community.

but lets just all jump on the bandwagon and assume its white australia being racist and attacking anyone and everyone because we are savage illiterate uneducated bogans. only white people are racist right? never mind that we have rafts of laws to protect against discrimination unlike other countries like, oh i don't know, india?

i also find it extremely hypocritical of the indians to be slagging us off when they have their own INSTITUTIONALISED discrimination against the lower classes and violence is committed against ethnic and social minorities within india BY INDIANS on a regular basis, which is then ignored by the authorities.

but hey, we've got white skin, that means we're intrinsically racist. everyone else is perfect and has every right to make racist comments about us.

 

[GumbyLearner]

i also find it extremely hypocritical of the indians to be slagging us off when they have their own INSTITUTIONALISED discrimination against the lower classes and violence is committed against ethnic and social minorities within india BY INDIANS on a regular basis, which is then ignored by the authorities.

I agree with you Disarray. India does have institutionalised discrimination. In India the Brahman is king. There is no denying the fact of inequality within the caste system.

FWIW, I spent a few years studying with hundreds of International students from India. This was over 15 years ago. Many of whom became close friends.
We ate, drank, socialised, laughed and completed group assignments together. Whether it be writing copious amounts of COBOL code together or just hanging out between classes.

Some of my best friends, Tarun and Mohit worked long hours outside of Uni either driving cabs or working as kitchenhands to pay their way. They also paid a heck of a lot more than most to complete their education. They certainly weren't the 'Daddy wouldn't buy me a pony, so I've decided to become a militant marxist trust-fund kiddie types' that's for sure. Many of them have achieved success since graduation through dedication to their study and hard-work.

I find it inconceivable that 15 years later, certain people (not that the media have told us who they are) are attacking people who are only here to gain a better education.

I cannot for the life of me remember the Indian students I spent a great deal of time with as anything other than hardworking average people just trying to better their lives.

 

[Boggo]

Got this in an email today, if these figures are accurate this country has a problem.

.

 

[perestroika89]

Got this in an email today, if these figures are accurate this country has a problem.

See the American version, and the Australian one.

 

[Boggo]

See the American version, and the Australian one.

Aha, should have known better... but then again anything is possible

 

[orr]

how about we find out who is committing the attacks first hey?

They're called "curry basher's" and for those that can stand to have the mirror turn on our society you can read David Marr's article in today's SMH.
http://www.smh.com.au/national/the-unutterable-rword-20090605-byi5.html?page=1
The poignant reference to the Australian Constitution, and current situation where, we're the only Western Democracy without a Bill of Rights and this having its roots in Political expediency and gutlessness.
If bother to go as far as to palay this with Paul Wolfowitz's comments to Gerildine Douge in her interview this morning with reference to Obama's most recent speech and Wolfowitz's articulation of why there's an underlying respect for the American political system, in that, as to who it can elevate to it's leadership. Then maybe you'll start to realize that with the next racist jibe you make or the unthouhtfull s****** (ryhmes with bigger) you have at another wog joke, just how your adding to the weight keeping this country back, And just which countries your affiliating yourself with.

 

[Green08]

So what of your own kind - nationality, religious whatever, - akind to you but seriously on shaky ground. An Australian racist towards an Australian.?

I believe the above does occur. Especially out here though I think it would be more along the 'will do work' opposed to the hit the 'pub this morning group'. How about if your not entirely racist but you just have a problem with a couple of people from the selection you don't like? Individual selective racism? It is a broad spectrum to group. But then it makes the media's job easier and classification mindlessly simple.

 

[happytown]

how about we find out who is committing the attacks first hey? you'll notice no names or descriptions are released. the indian blogosphere is alight with anti-australian sentiment and endless screaming about the evil white australians when many of these attacks are committed by africans and arab muslims (particularly in south west sydney). yet white australia cops the abuse and because of our own piss weak political correctness we wear this abuse to protect scumbags who terrorise not only indians but the entire community.

...

there is now recognition in the media that the recent alleged attacks in sydney on indian students (police have expressed dissapointment that the indians allegedly attacked have not come forward to make statements) were by australians (citizens?) of middle eastern appearance

a senior police officer stated that indians were not over-represented in assaults - as victims (one conclusion that can be drawn from this is that the attacks are an unfortunate risk anyone in melbourne or sydney faces)

no class of persons should be elevated to the extent that they are deemed more 'worthy victims' than others suffering the same situation

the police should handle these attacks the same as they should treat all assaults - diligently

alleged retaliatory attacks are the equivalent of the initial alleged attacks

the indian govt and others are calling on govts in aust to do something about law and order to deal with alleged attacks on indian students, perhaps the same could be said of the indian govt in providing adequate/satisfactory educational opportunities in india such that indians don't feel that they need to go overseas for education

having recently returned form india (specifically rajasthan - nw india) imo the govt of india ought be concentrating on the problems in its own country and getting this sorted first (and leaving its concerns with aust on this issue to normal diplomatic channels)

the continued tolerance of these protests feeds the ill-informed overseas outrage

cheers