Do you think Oz is backward and racist?

[Mr J]

your not proud to be australian?

not proud of our great land?

not proud of our great lifestyle?

not proud of our people and there abilitys ?

i am

This is what I'm talking about. I'm not a nationalistic type, and I consider nationalism to just be a form of tribalism. It's nothing to be proud of, it's just another way of categorising people and keeping them at arm's length. "Us vs Them".

I feel no more proud to be an Australian than I am to be human. We're all people. I don't judge people by their nationality, so why would I judge myself that way?

Yes, Australia is an amazing land, but the same can be said for the Earth as a whole. Yes, there are decent people here, but there are decent people everywhere. I don't think our lifestyle is special. Lifestyles vary greatly, so I don't consider there to be a standard aussie lifestyle. I'm not sure our lifestyles are all that different to other developed countries anyway. It certainly doesn't seem that way, apart from having better weather than most.

No doubt someone will call me unpatriotic and tell me to run off to some other country, completely missing what I'm getting at.

To give an example, let's take Federer and Hewitt. Many Australians will go for Hewitt just because he's Australian. However, Hewitt strikes me as an ********, and Fed a nice guy, so I'll go for Fed. If I have to judge people or pick a side, I'd prefer to do it on character/merit rather than some ignorant group mentality.

Just my opinion of course.

I have mates with 'Aussie Pride" tatooed on their arm... some people see that as racist? how so?

It isn't racist in itself, but nationalistic types are more likely to be racist than those who are not patriotic. The reason? Those who care less about nationalism likely care less about placing people into groups, and are naturally less judgemental about those groups.

IMO xenophobia is a deeply ingrained cultural trait, so you find it everywhere you go.

Yes it is. It doesn't necessarily make one racist though.

 

[Timmy]

not proud of our people and there abilitys ?

Maybe not their spelling ... abilities :

 

[trillionaire#1]

Sol can bugger off back to the us and stay there
didnt mind living here while collecting giant paychecks

aussies racist,no more than the americans are.
backward,watch the top gear episode were Clarkson and the boys
drive through Alabama .

 

[nunthewiser]

Maybe not their spelling ... abilities :

i think the joke regarding my originality in my spelling of words has already been done today timmy

i now devote myself to creating a new word everyday

 

[Timmy]

i think the joke regarding my originality in my spelling of words has already been done today timmy

i now devote myself to creating a new word everyday

LOL - looking forward to it!

 

[robots]

hello,

abilitys

thankyou
professor robots

 

[alphaman]

This is what I'm talking about. I'm not a nationalistic type, and I consider nationalism to just be a form of tribalism. It's nothing to be proud of, it's just another way of categorising people and keeping them at arm's length. "Us vs Them".

I feel no more proud to be an Australian than I am to be human. We're all people. I don't judge people by their nationality, so why would I judge myself that way?

I couldn't agree more.

 

[johenmo]

Actually, he's far from a typical yank. Go there and talk to "a typical" yank and you'll see he is nothing like them whatsoever. Can americans be arrogant, well of course. Can aussie's be arrogant, well of course.
To me, he's (sol) definitely arrogant and pompus.

Q: Why do Americans talk so loud?
A: So they can be heard over their shirts.

 

[Mad Mel]

Glad to see one American leave this wonderful country.

There's perhaps a little bit of irony in that statement. It seems to paint all Americans with a single prejudicial brush, much like Sol did with Australians.

aussies racist,no more than the americans are.

America has a black president. I don't see that happening in Australia any time soon. I don't disagree that the US has lots of racial issues, but the average American is not the stereotype that many Aussies seem to have in their minds.

And before anyone accuses me of being American, I'm Canadian, living in Brisbane.

 

[chatty]

This is what I'm talking about. I'm not a nationalistic type, and I consider nationalism to just be a form of tribalism. It's nothing to be proud of, it's just another way of categorising people and keeping them at arm's length. "Us vs Them".

I feel no more proud to be an Australian than I am to be human. We're all people. I don't judge people by their nationality, so why would I judge myself that way?

Yes, Australia is an amazing land, but the same can be said for the Earth as a whole. Yes, there are decent people here, but there are decent people everywhere. I don't think our lifestyle is special. Lifestyles vary greatly, so I don't consider there to be a standard aussie lifestyle. I'm not sure our lifestyles are all that different to other developed countries anyway. It certainly doesn't seem that way, apart from having better weather than most.

No doubt someone will call me unpatriotic and tell me to run off to some other country, completely missing what I'm getting at.

To give an example, let's take Federer and Hewitt. Many Australians will go for Hewitt just because he's Australian. However, Hewitt strikes me as an ********, and Fed a nice guy, so I'll go for Fed. If I have to judge people or pick a side, I'd prefer to do it on character/merit rather than some ignorant group mentality.

Just my opinion of course.



It isn't racist in itself, but nationalistic types are more likely to be racist than those who are not patriotic. The reason? Those who care less about nationalism likely care less about placing people into groups, and are naturally less judgemental about those groups.



Yes it is. It doesn't necessarily make one racist though.

I hope most Australians have your attitude. The world will be more liveable when people are not so judgemental and attach themselve to any particular group/country.

I married an Australian man and migrated here few years ago. Based on my experience, people here are very polite (due to anti-discrimination laws???) and I hardly see obvious racist behaviour.

To some certain extent I can feel it that they are a little bit racist but they are very polite and not showing it.

For me I can understand why, it's human nature. People, ignorant ones, who are not paying attention to what is going on to the rest of the world, they can be easily racist.

These people need to travel overseas, live overseas and be open minded and learn to understand the difference.

I have been living here for almost six years now. I have learnt what is acceptable here and what is not acceptable here and learnt the different value. I accept Australian value. However, I find it's strange when I go back to my country. A lot of Australians living in my country find it's hard to adjust themselve and still carry their way of life overseas. It's strange, isn't it? A lot of them complain about migrants who can't integrate to Australian society but when they live overseas they don't want to integrate too. They really behave like an ********.

The pot calling the kettle black.

They don't want to learn other language while y those who want to live in Australia need to understand English. Now when migrants can't speak English fluently or write properly. Some people can be rude to them too.

Again,I find it's strange that a lot of Australians at my work can't spell correctly and they have to ask me how to spell it and English is actually my second language.

I believe this is human nature and if people can't see that it's nothing to do with being Australian or whatever nationality, I don't know what to say ... This is quite sad.

 

[chatty]

There's perhaps a little bit of irony in that statement. It seems to paint all Americans with a single prejudicial brush, much like Sol did with Australians.



America has a black president. I don't see that happening in Australia any time soon. I don't disagree that the US has lots of racial issues, but the average American is not the stereotype that many Aussies seem to have in their minds.

And before anyone accuses me of being American, I'm Canadian, living in Brisbane.

Melbourne has Chinese mayor. But I agree with your statement.

 

[nunthewiser]

your not proud to be australian?

not proud of our great land?

not proud of our great lifestyle?

not proud of our people and there abilitys ?

i am

am i wrong to be proud of these things ??

 

[nulla nulla]

Backward? Australia appears to be in a better position than some of the so called first world nations to weather this global financial crisis. Australia's main banks (the big 4) are in the top 12 banks in the world. Australia has a AAA rating, the UK doesn't and the USA is looking shaky. Also MacQuarie Bank is one of the few surviving Investment Banks following the Global Meltdown. Other leading aspects: Health Care, Education, Telecomunications, Freedom of the Press, Freedom of the Vote, Freedom to move arround and Freedom of Speech. If this makes Australia backward then I can't think of a discription to describe how far backward the rest of the world is.

Racist, we had a "White Australia" policy back in the 50's then went to the other extreme opening up the borders to everyone. Now we are a multicultural nation, geez we even play soccer. The older stereo types are giving way to the younger multicultural generations. There are pockets of racism. However, some of the new immigrants are more racialy intolerant than people born here. Not withstanding, the majority of Australians are not racist, particularly when compared to the Americans who consider themselves Gods gift to the world and walk over everyone.

It seems the Sol came out here thinking he could put one over Australia and didn't appreciate it when Australia didn't lay down and let him walk all over us.
Good riddance to bad rubbish.

 

[So_Cynical]

Do you think Oz is backward and racist? - Yes
Do you think America is backward and racist? Hell - yes
Do you think Sol Trujillo is a moany ******** and ungrateful ********? - yes

 

[Julia]

It appears that the thing that really upset him is any reference to his Mexican heritage. He thinks K Rudd is racist because, "In February, Prime Minister Kevin Rudd selected just one word to respond to news that Mr Trujillo was leaving Telstra and Australia: Adios."

That's like calling someone racist because they said "G Day" to an Aussie.

What a buffoon.

Mike.

Yes, it was very poor manners on Rudd's part. An attempt to be funny but was simply tasteless.

This is what I'm talking about. I'm not a nationalistic type, and I consider nationalism to just be a form of tribalism. It's nothing to be proud of, it's just another way of categorising people and keeping them at arm's length. "Us vs Them".

I feel no more proud to be an Australian than I am to be human. We're all people. I don't judge people by their nationality, so why would I judge myself that way?

Yes, Australia is an amazing land, but the same can be said for the Earth as a whole. Yes, there are decent people here, but there are decent people everywhere. I don't think our lifestyle is special. Lifestyles vary greatly, so I don't consider there to be a standard aussie lifestyle. I'm not sure our lifestyles are all that different to other developed countries anyway. It certainly doesn't seem that way, apart from having better weather than most.

No doubt someone will call me unpatriotic and tell me to run off to some other country, completely missing what I'm getting at.

To give an example, let's take Federer and Hewitt. Many Australians will go for Hewitt just because he's Australian. However, Hewitt strikes me as an ********, and Fed a nice guy, so I'll go for Fed. If I have to judge people or pick a side, I'd prefer to do it on character/merit rather than some ignorant group mentality.

Just my opinion of course.



It isn't racist in itself, but nationalistic types are more likely to be racist than those who are not patriotic. The reason? Those who care less about nationalism likely care less about placing people into groups, and are naturally less judgemental about those groups.



Yes it is. It doesn't necessarily make one racist though.

Great post. You have said all I wanted to say and undoubtedly more eloquently.

I don't think the lack of warmth extended to Mr Trujillo was anything to do with his being American, or Mexican, but rather that his attitude from the beginning was patronising towards Australia and the way Telstra had been run. He declared he was going to cure everything.

But, his tenure hasn't done anything for the way Telstra is regarded in the community, the company's relationship with government, or the share price.

Had he actually produced the goods for Telstra, I imagine he would have felt more welcome and accepted here.

 

[Timmy]

Do you think Sol Trujillo is backward and racist?

 

[disarray]

This is what I'm talking about. I'm not a nationalistic type, and I consider nationalism to just be a form of tribalism. It's nothing to be proud of, it's just another way of categorising people and keeping them at arm's length. "Us vs Them".

its also a way for people to forge a common identity based around cultural, religious and social similarities in an increasingly globalised and heterogenous world. people with a common ancestry and history have every right to be proud of and to identify with the people they came from and maintain elements of that national character going forward (should they choose to). it is ignorant and bigoted to just dismiss nationalist sentiment in such an offhand way, and displays an amazing (but not unexpected) lack of intellectual consideration and depth of thought.

I feel no more proud to be an Australian than I am to be human. We're all people. I don't judge people by their nationality, so why would I judge myself that way?

because nationality is related to culture, which is tied in with attitudes and laws and systems. an australian national has a different outlook to the world and others than people from other nations and cultures. look at the position of women in our society and compare to say bangladesh or afghanistan or even a first world country like japan.

whether you like it or a not (and you probably don't so just keep on ignoring this simple fact) a person from a different nation has a different world view to you so when you judge them you aren't just looking at their skin and going "oh wow a <insert race>" you're looking at the whole depth of culture and history and social structure and religious background and the many and varied facets of the human animal that lies inside that person. unless you are an idiot (which many many people are).

yes we're all the same species but we aren't the same beast.

Yes, Australia is an amazing land, but the same can be said for the Earth as a whole.

no it can't. there's plenty of sh1tholes out there. take the rose coloured glasses off for a sec and get out into the world.

I don't think our lifestyle is special

our lifestyle IS special. your girlfriend can get around in a miniskirt without being flogged or raped. we can worship whatever fictional deity we like, take male or female (or both) to our bed. we can protest, criticise, complain, get pissed, fall over then claim free health care.

go try that in china and you'll get flattened by a tank column. give it a whirl in dubai and the religious police will be beating the crap out of you and your girl with canes. be openly gay in iran and you'll find yourself at the end of a hangmans noose. be a street kid in rio and get good at dodging death squads or be a bullet riddled corpse in a gutter. be an unescorted asian woman in saudi arabia and there's a good chance you're a slave. yes, a real life, honest to goodness, "oh isn't that outlawed?" SLAVE.

people like you are so busy agonising over our shortcomings asking stupid questions like "how can we make people like us more?" when you should be analysing the real questions with real answers that can actually make a difference when applied to the wider stage. why is our society this way? what aspects of our cultural evolution and society are the source of such freedom, unheard of in the entire history of humanity? what are the racial, social and cultural lynchpins that make western society the beacon of freedom, progress and hope in a largely barbaric world? what is the cue in X culture that causes behaviour Y? does Y need to be modified (say honour killings or female mutilation or childhood slavery) and if so, how can we understand and then work within framework X to change the outcome?

people like you with your one dimensional feel good attitudes are as much a part of the problem as the dipsh1t racist that hates blacks because "they took our jobs!"

I'm not sure our lifestyles are all that different to other developed countries anyway.

compared to who? outside japan and korea the developed world possesses pretty much the same cultural and religious background, so why would they be different?

No doubt someone will call me unpatriotic and tell me to run off to some other country, completely missing what I'm getting at.

no i understand where you're coming from, you just don't realise what the world is really like. you sit there all educated and protected snug under the blanket of freedom our grandparents had to commit mass murder for, casting judgement on attitudes you consider "barbaric" when you really don't have a clue about the true nature of humanity or the state of the world.

war is normal. brutality is normal. barbarity is normal. this 70 odd year period of "peace" is pretty much the longest unbroken stretch of quiet time the western world has ever experienced. but don't worry, it will all be over soon.

It isn't racist in itself, but nationalistic types are more likely to be racist than those who are not patriotic. The reason? Those who care less about nationalism likely care less about placing people into groups, and are naturally less judgemental about those groups.

or maybe they are more aware as to the nature of things, and realise man is a base animal who will act in his own best interests and is hard wired to common recognition socialisation, and all the "we are the world" group hug fairy dust ideals are nothing but a temporary luxury bought with blood and, eventually, will have to be paid for the same way when challenged.

people belong in groups. it is this way because we are all different. it's true, look it up.

 

[noirua]

Parts of Australia remain forgotten in the Outback. The rail link added between Alice Springs and Darwin should pickup over the next 40 years, and towns such as Tennants Creek and Katherine should expand, takes time without Federal investment. Sure, parts of Aus are really in the 19th century and townies see the "out in the sticks" as a forgotten wasteland. Unless it has Gold, Uranium, iron ore, silver, copper, oil etc.
http://www.gsr.com.au/our-trains/the-ghan/the-journey.php

A small town, few stores, can bring about a pick and choose attitude. Accept it as it is and be grateful. Backward attitude that breeds racism, imho.

 

[Musashi]

people belong in groups. it is this way because we are all different. it's true, look it up.

You can look it up here

http://paulinehanson.com.au/

It only takes one bad apple to spoil a whole basket

I guess Sol has a point.

 

[Mr J]

The world will be more liveable when people are not so judgemental and attach themselve to any particular group/country.

I completely agree, but as you said it's human nature. We tend to define ourselves by groups, and nationality is just one of those. It's funny you mention Australians living abroad, as I'd go overseas to experience another country's culture and lifestyle. If I wanted to live like an aussie, I could just do that here .

its also a way for people to forge a common identity based around cultural, religious and social similarities in an increasingly globalised and heterogenous world.

We're all human, perhaps we can start there. Also consider that grouping people places less emphasis on the individual. This is why many think of someone as American or Australian, rather than as a person that just happened to be born there. Grouping encourages generalisations and stereotypes, which for example the Americans suffer greatly from. I think we'd be much better off if we thought of each other simply as human, but individuals.

it is ignorant and bigoted to just dismiss nationalist sentiment in such an offhand way, and displays an amazing (but not unexpected) lack of intellectual consideration and depth of thought.

I assume you just called me an idiot. There have been many intelligent people in history that have commented on the negatives of grouping, whether it be nationalism, religious, socio-economic status etc. I only dismiss it because I believe it brings greater harm than good. There's nothing wrong with feeling proud, but it so often breeds ignorance which leads to many problems in the world.

because nationality is related to culture, which is tied in with attitudes and laws and systems. an australian national has a different outlook to the world and others than people from other nations and cultures. look at the position of women in our society and compare to say bangladesh or afghanistan or even a first world country like japan.

So the nationalism that you claim makes us special, also preserves what we consider poorer standards in many other cultures? It shouldn't make us proud to be Australian, it should just make us sympathetic to women who are oppressed.

whether you like it or a not (and you probably don't so just keep on ignoring this simple fact) a person from a different nation has a different world view to you so when you judge them you aren't just looking at their skin and going "oh wow a <insert race>" you're looking at the whole depth of culture and history and social structure and religious background and the many and varied facets of the human animal that lies inside that person. unless you are an idiot (which many many people are).

I'm not ignoring it, there are many different views from my own nation, so I wouldn't expect any less than from other nations. The fact is that many people do make judgements based only on religion, culture, race, wealth etc. As you said, there are many, many ignorant people in the world. Grouping just encourages it.

our lifestyle IS special. your girlfriend can get around in a miniskirt without being flogged or raped. we can worship whatever fictional deity we like, take male or female (or both) to our bed. we can protest, criticise, complain, get pissed, fall over then claim free health care.

We're just one of the better houses on a bad street. Yes, we're better than most, but we still have some way to go. I don't feel proud because I don't think we've yet reached a level to be proud of.

people like you are so busy agonising over our shortcomings asking stupid questions like "how can we make people like us more?" when you should be analysing the real questions with real answers that can actually make a difference when applied to the wider stage. why is our society this way? what aspects of our cultural evolution and society are the source of such freedom, unheard of in the entire history of humanity? what are the racial, social and cultural lynchpins that make western society the beacon of freedom, progress and hope in a largely barbaric world? what is the cue in X culture that causes behaviour Y? does Y need to be modified (say honour killings or female mutilation or childhood slavery) and if so, how can we understand and then work within framework X to change the outcome?

So you have now grouped me, without knowing me at all. Busy agnonising? Hardly. I make the point that we're all human and should consider each other as individuals, and suddenly I'm accused of whinging about how bad it is in Australia. That's fine, I did say that someone would do just this.

Analysing the real questions? So now we should ask ourselves why we're special and how we can change the world to be like us? I find that kind of view distasteful, and part of the problem, not the solution. I hope I've just misunderstood you there. We have to let people choose for themselves, not impose our beliefs and standards on them. Our way is not necessarily better, we have to let them decide for themselves. This doesn't mean we can't help them.

compared to who? outside japan and korea the developed world possesses pretty much the same cultural and religious background, so why would they be different?

That's my point - our lifestyle is not that unique or special, at least to the extent of it making Australia better than everywhere else, as many seem to think.

no i understand where you're coming from, you just don't realise what the world is really like. you sit there all educated and protected snug under the blanket of freedom our grandparents had to commit mass murder for, casting judgement on attitudes you consider "barbaric" when you really don't have a clue about the true nature of humanity or the state of the world.

I don't see how you can come to that conclusion. I just stated the grouping people, whether it be by nationality, culture, race, religion, wealth etc just leads to greater ignorance. Identifying people as groups leads to less importance of the individual, and if the world is to become a better place (as most would perceive to be "better"), then we need to stop thinking in terms of groups. I'm not ignorant of human nature, and I know that for many, perhaps most, that it just isn't possible. Humans as a whole are weak, greedy, ignorant etc, but much of this is due to our attitudes and culture, rather than our true nature.

or maybe they are more aware as to the nature of things, and realise man is a base animal who will act in his own best interests and is hard wired to common recognition socialisation, and all the "we are the world" group hug fairy dust ideals are nothing but a temporary luxury bought with blood and, eventually, will have to be paid for the same way when challenged.

You're jumping to conclusions, and you couldn't be more wrong about me here. I never made any comments about idealistic social structures, just that thinking in terms of groups is not beneficial. I never said we could get past that, because we may very well never do so.

people belong in groups. it is this way because we are all different. it's true, look it up.

They only belong in groups because that is what people think. We're all different? Then don't place people in groups. Grouping people robs them of their identity, it doesn't preserve it.