Death is deserved for the Bali bombers?

Australia has strongly legislated against capital punishment in all State and Federal jurisdictions.

Yet politician after politician has expressed satisfaction over the impending execution of the Bali bombers. This culminated in our Prime Minister Kevin Rudd, when asked to comment about the impending execution of the Bali bombers, to state that they "deserve the justice that will be delivered to them".

Even more extraordinarily, the Governor General Robert McClelland, when asked whether he was disappointed with Mr. Rudd's comments, is quoted in The Age as saying "We will be advocates in respect to those Australians who are sentenced to capital punishment. We won't be advocates in respect to other individuals."

http://www.theage.com.au/national/death-penalty-stand-limited-to-our-own-20081003-4tkh.html

So what is to be - no capital punishment for Australians anywhere but we are happy for foreigners to be executed? Or should Australia lead the debate against capital punishment in Asia?

Sorry I just realised that I had not made a conclusion.

I think what is good for Australian citizens should be good for all Asian citizens.

Rudd should have had the conviction to say that he does not support capital punishment anywhere in the world under any circumstances.

I shake my head in disbelief at the hypocrisy of our politicians sometimes (and that is a bipartisan comment).

bushman, I agree (again lol)
All who believe in capital punishment should be prepared to put a rifle to the criminal's chest and pull the trigger.
and beware of reprisals by religious zealots.

let em stay in jail forever (imo).

christians (small 'c' you will notice) true to Jesus' teachings would steer clear of capital punishment surely - and win kudos if they expressed it clearly to the world. (just imo)

If not death then wouldnt life in Jail with continous torture be sufficient? imagine if it was your kids that were gone?

Kevin should have said that we ought to have one too for extreme cases.

Why I say that?

Because if 202 are blasted to pieces here I would love to see masters of the carnage to go too.

Agreed, it is hypocrisy.


As to capital punishment, which is better:
the execution of one innocent person
or
the non-conviction of ten 'guilty' people?

2020hindsight said:

bushman, I agree (again lol)

christians (small 'c' you will notice) true to Jesus' teachings would steer clear of capital punishment surely - and win kudos if they expressed it clearly to the world. (just imo)

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Not so.
*
(1)"The Death Penalty", by Romano Amerio,* a faithful Catholic Vatican insider, scholar, professor at the Academy of Lugano, consultant to the Preparatory Commission of Vatican II, and a peritus (expert theologian) at the Council.
*
*www.domid.blogspot.com/2007/05/amerio-on-capital-punishment.html
*
titled "Amerio on capital punishment ",** Chapter XXVI, 187. The death penalty, from the book Iota Unum,** May 25, 2007
*
*
(2)* "Catholic and other Christian References: Support for the Death Penalty", at
******** www.homicidesurvivors.com/2006/10/1...references-support-for-the-death-penalty.aspx
*
*
(3)* "Capital Punishment: A Catholic Perspective",
********* by Br. Augustine (Emmanuel Valenza)
******** www.sspx.org/against_the_sound_bites/capital_punishment.htm
*
*
(4) "Capital Punishment: The Case for Justice", Prof. J. Budziszewski, First Things, August / September**** 2004 found athttp://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles4/BudziszewskiPunishment.shtml
*

(5) "The Death Penalty", by Solange Strong Hertz at
******** www.ourworld.compuserve.com/HOMEPAGES/REMNANT/death2.htm
*
*
(6) "Capital Punishment: What the Bible Says", Dr. Lloyd R. Bailey, Abingdon Press, 1987.
********** The definitive* biblical review of the death penalty.
*
*
(7) "Why I Support Capital Punishment", by Andrew Tallman
********* sections 7-11 biblical review, sections 1-6 secular review
********* http://andrewtallmanshowarticles.blogspot.com/search?q=Capital+punishment
*
*
(8) Forgotten Truths: "Is The Church Against Abortion and The Death Penalty"
********* by Luiz Sergio Solimeo, Crusade Magazine, p14-16, May/June 2007
********* www.tfp.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=957
*

(9)* "A Seamless Garment In a Sinful World" by John R. Connery, S. J., America, 7/14/84, p 5-8).
*

(10) "God’s Justice and Ours" by US Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia, First Things, 5/2002
******** www.firstthings.com/article.php3?id_article=2022
*

(11) "The Purpose of Punishment (in the Catholic tradition)",
******* by R. Michael Dunningan, J.D., J.C.L., CHRISTIFIDELIS, Vol.21,No.4, sept 14, 2003
***** www.st-joseph-foundation.org/newsletter/lead.php?document=2003/21-4
*

(12) "MOST CATHOLICS OPPOSE CAPITAL PUNISHMENT?",
******** KARL KEATING'S E-LETTER,** Catholic Answers, March 2, 2004
******* www.catholic.com/newsletters/kke_040302.asp
*

(13) "THOUGHTS ON THE BISHOPS' MEETING: NOWADAYS, VOTERS IGNORE BISHOPS",
********* KARL KEATING'S E-LETTER, Catholic Answers,, Nov. 22, 2005
******** www.catholic.com/newsletters/kke_051122.asp
---------------------

70% of Catholics supported the death penalty as of May, 2oo5, Gallup Poll, Moral Values and Beliefs. The May 2-5, 2005 poll also found that 74% of Americans* favor the death penalty for murderers, while 23% oppose.

dudleysharp said:

70% of Catholics supported the death penalty as of May, 2oo5, Gallup Poll, Moral Values and Beliefs. The May 2-5, 2005 poll also found that 74% of Americans* favor the death penalty for murderers, while 23% oppose.

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Money spent on murderers in jails could be better spent on 3 children dying from hunger every 20 seconds (if it is true).

white_crane said:

Agreed, it is hypocrisy.


As to capital punishment, which is better:
the execution of one innocent person
or
the non-conviction of ten 'guilty' people?

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That right there is the reason I'm opposed to capital punishment. Death cannot be reversed / appealed, how many innocent people have been freed in light of new evidence? Would anyone want the death of an innocent on their conscience?

Feelings of revenge and 'justice' come from a place of pain, and a place of fear. Hatred isn't good for anyone (especially the person bearing it), and having ones revenged fulfilled will not undo any pain; nor will seeing them imprisoned for life. Indifference is the one escape from people that have wronged you; the ability to forgive them, walk away, and not allow them to take away anymore of your time, energy, and happiness.

I've stated many times that I do not even agree with prison - and believe that the problems of these people need to be dealt with; and not just punished. Positive reinforcement, and re-conditioning is the way to deal with criminals - not imprisonment. In short; criminals need therapy (this may include mandatory placement in a mental health facility) and education, not bars.

We must ask ourselves; why did these men commit these crimes? More importantly; what can we do to prevent this sort of thing from happening again - how can we help these people?

Even these terrorists deserve our compassion; and I will mourn their deaths. Lives are to be wasted; how can anyone applaud that?

dudleysharp said:

Not so.
*
(1)"The Death Penalty", by Romano Amerio,* a faithful Catholic Vatican insider, scholar, professor at the Academy of Lugano, consultant to the Preparatory Commission of Vatican II, and a peritus (expert theologian) at the Council.
*
.............

70% of Catholics supported the death penalty as of May, 2oo5, Gallup Poll, Moral Values and Beliefs. The May 2-5, 2005 poll also found that 74% of Americans* favor the death penalty for murderers, while 23% oppose.

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dudley - I guess that's why I said small 'c' christian .. as against the formal Church.

Sorry Dudley, I have little or no respect for the Vatican - bunch of murderers if you ask me - especially when it comes to preaching against the use of condoms when AIDS is rampant - absolutely rampant.

Back to capital punishment , don't forget that judges tend to find "not guilty" more often when death penalty is involved - and there is any doubt whatsoever.

btw, I'd like to see the faithful Vatican Scholar above be the one to put the rifle to the chest of the prisoner and pull the trigger.

I mean, when firing squads are given loaded rifles, there is one blank in amongst them - to let the men "live with themselves", - each of them clinging to the self delusion that they alone were obviously the one with the blank.

Nyden said:

That right there is the reason I'm opposed to capital punishment. Death cannot be reversed / appealed, how many innocent people have been freed in light of new evidence? Would anyone want the death of an innocent on their conscience?

Feelings of revenge and 'justice' come from a place of pain, and a place of fear. Hatred isn't good for anyone (especially the person bearing it), and having ones revenged fulfilled will not undo any pain; nor will seeing them imprisoned for life. Indifference is the one escape from people that have wronged you; the ability to forgive them, walk away, and not allow them to take away anymore of your time, energy, and happiness.


Even these terrorists deserve our compassion; and I will mourn their deaths. Lives are to be wasted; how can anyone applaud that?

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Its a good response Nyden.

A few comments if I may:
1. The Bali bombers have admitted their guilt so the issue is not capital punishment meted out to an innocent party. Their crime was abhorent and the have admitted to it.
2. I too see the role of the State to be a civilising agent in our lives. Its' mechanism should never be motivated by revenge and retribution. To hear K. Rudd salivating at the prospect of the violent death of these criminals is to me the most frightening outcome of this whole tragic saga. We have the wealth, education and democracy to be a guiding light on human rights in Asia. Instead, by supporting the death of the Bombers, we erode our moral authority and our strong support base for that most fundamental of the human rights, the right to life.
3. 'There but for the grace of God go I'. Compassion for the man who did the greatest evil against you means that you win. Why cannot people see that? Violence is the way of the inferior intellect, violence begets violence, and in this case violence begets martyrs. Counter productive Old Testament drivel.

Bushman said:

Violence is the way of the inferior intellect, violence begets violence, and in this case violence begets martyrs. Counter productive Old Testament drivel.

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spot-bludy-on bushman

Exodus > Chapter 21
21:23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
21:24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
21:25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe

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Mind you , here's what the new testament says - I don't agree that they get out jail though - bludy obviously not - when they brag how they'd like to kill more Aussies even now.

Matthew > Chapter 18
18:21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
18:22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

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2020hindsight said:

dudley - I guess that's why I said small 'c' christian .. as against the formal Church.

Sorry Dudley, I have little or no respect for the Vatican - bunch of murderers if you ask me - especially when it comes to preaching against the use of condoms when AIDS is rampant - absolutely rampant.

Back to capital punishment , don't forget that judges tend to find "not guilty" more often when death penalty is involved - and there is any doubt whatsoever.

btw, I'd like to see the faithful Vatican Scholar above be the one to put the rifle to the chest of the prisoner and pull the trigger.

I mean, when firing squads are given loaded rifles, there is one blank in amongst them - to let the men "live with themselves", - each of them clinging to the self delusion that they alone were obviously the one with the blank.

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2020 its godbothering that got us into this mess.

Forget all these shamans.

These bastards murdered innocent people.

Execute em I say.

gg

Garpal Gumnut said:

2020 its godbothering that got us into this mess.

Forget all these shamans.

These bastards murdered innocent people.

Execute em I say.

gg

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listen to yourself gg

"these bastards murdered - let's murder them !"

and keep in mind that theses idiots (no you're right , bastards) will be martyred. You want it to happen again?

PS I realise that East Timor is strictly off topic ,.... but Xanana Gusmao and Jose Ramos Horta have forgiven them - what moral giants those blokes are . Here's a previous post I made on that one.

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=87431

2020hindsight said:

listen to yourself gg

"these bastards murdered - let's murder them !"

and keep in mind that theses idiots (no you're right , bastards) will be martyred. You want it to happen again?

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2020 mate, they murdered innocent people. As recently as three days ago they rejoiced in this and threatened more murders. Their crazy godbothering confreres will continue to terrorise innocent people whether they live or die.

I say execute em, and the sooner the better.

gg

another aside gg, but whenever I'm in Perth I invariably spend a few minutes at the memorial there ... where , on 12 Oct each year, the first sun's rays are correctly aligned to navigate a narrow slot and strike a plaque on a rock with the names of the 16 (I think) Wassies who died..

as posted elsewhere, I've heard people complaining that the memorial doesn't belong with the other memorials for "the fallen" - but imo, the fallen were "bigger than that"

for mine?
lock em up and throw away the key - deny them their 7 virgins per night whatever... mind you, I'm not sure what they could do with said virgins, not having any body parts virtual virgins maybe?

An aside:
Although I don't believe this is the case here, there are people who do admit to crimes they didn't commit, for various reasons.

I did a paper on false confessions at university, which I might be able to rustle up for those that want more detail.

In an article today on the ABC website.

The former chief justice of Indonesian Constitutional Court, Jimly Ashidique, claims that the sentences received by Amrozi, Mukhlas and Imam Samudra are unconstitutional, and therefore unfair.

The Indonesian Constitutional court ruled in 2004 that it was unconstitutional to convict the Bali bombers under an anti-terrorism law which had been enacted only after those terrorist attacks occurred.

In other words, those laws didn't actually exist when the crime itself was committed.