Daniel Kertcher/Trading Pursuits - Serious or Scam?

[prawn_86]

Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?

Covered call is a synthetic of the naked short put.

Shows how much Daniels course actually 'teaches' then doesn't it

 

[wayneL]

Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?

Covered call is a synthetic of the naked short put.

I doubt you read any of the books WayneL recommended, since that will be the first thing you learn.

It must be groundhog day... We've been through this with Alvin on this thread, and covered it a million times in other threads.

 

[Alvin Purple]

Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?

Covered call is a synthetic of the naked short put.

I doubt you read any of the books WayneL recommended, since that will be the first thing you learn.

Yes, I read that, but I don't agree.

With a naked put your income is limited to the premium, while your downside risk is virtually unlimited.

With a covered call you have a lot more downside protection and with a stop loss in the right place you can significantly reduce your risk.

Both the naked put and the covered call rely on the share price staying above the strike price, but that is where the similarity ends.

In any case, covered calls have made me a lot of money over the years and I know I'll stick with them.

 

[wayneL]

Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?

Yes, I read that, but I don't agree.

With a naked put your income is limited to the premium, while your downside risk is virtually unlimited.

With a covered call you have a lot more downside protection

Let's leave aside stop losses for a moment, can you please explain how a covered call has more downside protection that a short put?

 

[wayneL]

Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?

Alvin, considering that you have now become an authority on options pricing, can you please explain the put-call equation as it relates to short puts and their corresponding covered call.

In particular, can you detail how the put-call parity equation is suspended in this particular instance.

 

[Alvin Purple]

Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?

Now, wayneL, I know you are saying this with tongue in cheek, but I do not regard myself as an expert in option pricing. But you ought to know, that a covered call with a strike price deep in the money offers a lot more downside protection than a naked put. Everybody who deals in options ought to know that and the point really doesn't have to be made over and over again.

In the monthly options cycle just completed, for instance, I used covered calls on AAPL on many occasions, both for weekly and monthly options. As you can see from the AAPL chart, all those trades were profitable, while some naked puts would not have been.

I have just checked my broker's account and the money is already in there. I am now getting ready for next week's trades and I think I might have a bit of TSLA.

 

[skyQuake]

Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?

Now, wayneL, I know you are saying this with tongue in cheek, but I do not regard myself as an expert in option pricing. But you ought to know, that a covered call with a strike price deep in the money offers a lot more downside protection than a naked put. Everybody who deals in options ought to know that and the point really doesn't have to be made over and over again.

In the monthly options cycle just completed, for instance, I used covered calls on AAPL on many occasions, both for weekly and monthly options. As you can see from the AAPL chart, all those trades were profitable, while some naked puts would not have been.

I have just checked my broker's account and the money is already in there. I am now getting ready for next week's trades and I think I might have a bit of TSLA.

Please stop embarrassing yourself and read the following.

http://www.futuresmag.com/2010/05/01/naked-put-vs-covered-call-whats-riskier
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covered_call

You're just paying extra comm with the stock component!

 

[wayneL]

Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?

Now, wayneL, I know you are saying this with tongue in cheek, but I do not regard myself as an expert in option pricing. But you ought to know, that a covered call with a strike price deep in the money offers a lot more downside protection than a naked put. Everybody who deals in options ought to know that and the point really doesn't have to be made over and over again.

Ahem, anyone who deals in options ought to know basic options theory, in this instance put-call parity and synthetics. As such they would know that you are talking out of your hat.

Let's take a hypothetical example (we can take a real example with real prices, but will have to be done during market hours):

Stock is trading at $59.50

55 dec call is trading at 4.98/5.02 bid/ask

55 dec put is trading at .48/.52 bid/ask

Let's leave aside stop losses for a moment, can you please explain how a covered call has more downside protection that a short put?

...can you please explain the put-call equation as it relates to short puts and their corresponding covered call.

In particular, can you detail how the put-call parity equation is suspended in this particular instance.

Using the above example, can you please answer my questions which I have quoted for your your convenience.

 

[ftw129]

Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?

Alvin,

You may be finding it hard to take in what the others are telling you because of the tone this discussion has taken but take it from me, you are indeed very wrong in this instance.

A covered call is indeed a synthetic of a naked short put. The only difference being the transaction costs really. A covered call costs more in brokerage because you have to (a) buy the stock and (b) write the call instead of just selling the put. The risks are the same.

With a naked put your income is limited to the premium, while your downside risk is virtually unlimited.

This is also incorrect. Your downside is limited to the price of the stock. A stock can only go to zero, therefore your risk is limited to the amount of stock you have sold puts for.

Selling a naked call (not put) has unlimited risk as a stock could theoretically go to infinity... Plus transaction costs!

You need to review the material. You really should understand these basics by now.

 

[ROE]

Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?

Yes, I read that, but I don't agree.

With a naked put your income is limited to the premium, while your downside risk is virtually unlimited.

With a covered call you have a lot more downside protection and with a stop loss in the right place you can significantly reduce your risk.

naked put you limited to the stock going down to zero, it is not unlimited ....
naked put 10 contracts of WOW ..your maximum loss will be 1000 x strike price, it is not unlimited...

and what about covered call potential unlimited loss to the upside?
you covered call stock $10 strike, what if it jump to $20 ? $30? $100? that unlimited loss to the upside

 

[minwa]

Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?

But you ought to know, that a covered call with a strike price deep in the money offers a lot more downside protection than a naked put. Everybody who deals in options ought to know that and the point really doesn't have to be made over and over again.

Post that up on any other options forum of your choice. If most other unbiased people (on other forum) agree with you then everyone here will admit we are fools and apologise to you. If not, then you admit you do not know the basics of options.

Dare to back your words and prove everyone here wrong ? I will even make a post on another forum of your choice if you are lazy, just let me know which forum. A few come to mind - bigmiketrading, trade2win, elitetrader...

Take your pick or stop making a fool out of yourself and Daniel.

 

[wayneL]

Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?

Dare to back your words and prove everyone here wrong ? I will even make a post on another forum of your choice if you are lazy, just let me know which forum. A few come to mind - bigmiketrading, trade2win, elitetrader...

We don't need no stinkin' overseas fora. We have all the gurus we need right here on ASF.

But we don't even really need gurus, just some fairly basic arithmetic, which I am quite prepared to post up... but I just gotta see Alvin prove the option pricing models wrong first. That will be entertainment plus.

...stop making a fool out of yourself and Daniel.

"Too late!" she cried.

 

[sails]

Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?

Just a thought - Alvin are you talking about assignment risk of a naked put compared to a covered call?

Or is it that your cfd provider won't allow a guaranteed stop loss on the naked put? But then surely you could buy your own long put for protection.

Or a combination of both the above?

Very strange... Perhaps You could explain what you perceive as the greater risk of a naked put vs a covered call.

 

[Pure Silk]

Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?

As promised, here are my December results. Joe has received statements and has confirmed all is OK.

Overall return on capital employed for 183 days is 13.82%, extrapolated over 365 days 27.57% (don't worry, this is meaningless-I know). I am disappointed with December, primarily due to the APC trade going belly up. Despite a number of other trades being closed off early with losses, overall result was going to be in the black until APC disappointed. TP should've filtered this for us in my opinion, (ie) avoid stocks with pending Legal action whose results may have a negative impact on the trade. The last 3 months trading has resulted in a net return of...mmm well about ZERO.

For ease of comparison, I will post my previous 5 months results immediately after this (maximum 5 file attachments per post allowed)

15 more trade ideas to be considered for January 2014 expiry.

 

[Pure Silk]

Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?

Previous 5 months results.

 

[wayneL]

Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?

Thanks Pure Silk, your probity is appreciated.

 

[wayneL]

Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?

*bump*

Whither Alvin?

I cannot wait to see this financial alchemy.

 

[TPI]

Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?

With a naked put, if you have cash to fund the stock if you get exercised I believe it is called a "covered short put".

If you are happy to own the stock long-term, then this is not such a bad thing right?

Sure the price may continue to fall, but if it is doing so on short-term market sentiment rather than any fundamental changes to the business, then you just buy some more right?

 

[wayneL]

Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?

With a naked put, if you have cash to fund the stock if you get exercised I believe it is called a "covered short put".

Cash covered put or cash secured put

You get assigned if you're short, not exercised.

If you are happy to own the stock long-term, then this is not such a bad thing right?

It depends what your investing plan is.

Sure the price may continue to fall, but if it is doing so on short-term market sentiment rather than any fundamental changes to the business, then you just buy some more right?

If you want to play the averaging down game... there are pros and cons, but better your money than mine. ;-)

 

[lael]

Re: Daniel Kertcher/Platinum Pursuits - Serious or Scam?

I posted a while back and commented that I would be back to post my experiences with TP. I haven't looked at the details clearly enough to comment completely ( I lost some money from mis-placed trades and then closing them out... position sizing... I forgot that a contract was 100shares and placed an order early on for 70 contracts... way too large for me atm). But generally - my Income account has done relatively poorly. Got smashed last month on APC as some of you noticed, and I think lost on another trade too. For the year my Income account is up around... $500.- lol. However, this has been offset by a recommendation Daniel made on TMV at the seminar and on the webinars TP runs, which has netted me around 3K (not closed yet... so could go up or down). So my Income account is currently up 3.5K on a base of 15K, but... only 500 is from the naked puts (no covered calls have been posted in the months I've been trading.) I haven't done the Income Plus course - so don't yet have access to the trades Pure Silk is posting.

The Master course has been MUCH more lucrative. I tried trading some Forex myself after doing the course and made a few mistakes... some harsh, but good learning not to freak out when the trade idea is solid. Anyway... started with 45K, lost 12K and got back on board actually doing some of the recommended trades. My account is currently sitting at 61K - most of which is from Trading Pursuit's trades, some of which is from a eur/usd short I placed. Positions aren't closed out yet... so the final result is yet to be seen.

I did the sums just tonight, which is what prompted me to come back and post - If I was to close out everything, I will have just broken even on my initial investment of capital and the course fees (so given opportunity cost I have lost money so far... but if I had followed more of the Forex trades recommended I would be well ahead). Without closing out the trades this doesn't mean much - but thought I would post to let you all know my experience.

The thread went crazy while I was gone and I had trouble finding the books you were recommending WayneL - can you repost what you recommend on options trading? I'm curious to understand what you are talking about with synthetic naked puts etc. I don't know a lot - when you talk about shorting a put... do you mean writing the contract? (selling the put?). Overall I think I want to get gun at Forex, but very interested in Options.

I'm planning on doing the Income Plus course TP offer in April. At this point I would strongly recommend the Master course with Forex... and I'll comment more about Income with more time trading the strategy.

Cheers,
Lael