CZZ - Capilano Honey

[galumay]

, they have also conducted research proving the prebiotic does in fact increase the levels of probiotic in the gut, this was already suspected but had never been proven until now.

Really? Where is this research? Is it marketing research or a peer reviewed, scientific paper, published in a reputable journal?

Even if it were the case that prebiotics have been proven to be beneficial for probiotics, is there any real research showing that the amount in honey has any effect given the small quantities consumed? How does it balance against the health impacts of over consumption of sugars like honey?

I still think its just a marketing ploy, and more luck to them and shareholders like yourself! Just lets not confuse it with science!

 

[qldfrog]

Really? Where is this research? Is it marketing research or a peer reviewed, scientific paper, published in a reputable journal?

Even if it were the case that prebiotics have been proven to be beneficial for probiotics, is there any real research showing that the amount in honey has any effect given the small quantities consumed? How does it balance against the health impacts of over consumption of sugars like honey?

I still think its just a marketing ploy, and more luck to them and shareholders like yourself! Just lets not confuse it with science!

My problem with VC is him taking any fact checking as an attack;
So I repeat:
"But, even if some prebiotic may be "non digestible plant fibre " how would you find: "non digestible plant fibre" in purified and filtered honey?"
so yes honey does have some different sugars with low/slow absorbtion but let's not regurgitate a marketing speech please; there is marketing and there is science.
For example, having a lot of prebiotics means you fuel your gut flora; it so has some side effect like transforming the body into a farting machine if these prebiotics are in significant quantity.
Nothing bad in itself: Inulin for example can be found in good quantity in jerusalem artichokes or Peruvian ground apple/Yacon with the same effect;
VC and I have had another brush before around the impact of varroa.If you deal with CZZ, you deal with nature, and a complex one.
In my opinion and if you are long term, you should seriously investigate the sciences behind and not only repeat whatever a company would release.
But good on CZZ: Blackmore did a brilliant job of exploiting [ let's be nice] people naive side.
If CZZ can repeat, good for VC share price and export figures.

 

[Klogg]

But good on CZZ: Blackmore did a brilliant job of exploiting [ let's be nice] people naive side.
If CZZ can repeat, good for VC share price and export figures.

Slightly off topic, but Blackmores took this even further by releasing a line of supplements for pets... Surely there's nowhere near enough information to determine what supplements my pets need. There's already enough confusion about humans!

 

[Value Collector]

Really? Where is this research? Is it marketing research or a peer reviewed, scientific paper, published in a reputable journal?

Even if it were the case that prebiotics have been proven to be beneficial for probiotics, is there any real research showing that the amount in honey has any effect given the small quantities consumed? How does it balance against the health impacts of over consumption of sugars like honey?

I still think its just a marketing ploy, and more luck to them and shareholders like yourself! Just lets not confuse it with science!

Here is a link to some of the work that was done by the university of NSW, they have been researching the prebiotic effects of honey since 2009

http://www.unsworks.unsw.edu.au/primo_library/libweb/action/dlDisplay.do?vid=UNSWORKS&docId=unsworks_35916

Here is a bit from the summary

In summary, the results from this investigation demonstrate that Australian honeys have considerable prebiotic capacity which was comparable to or better than inulin.

obviously different honeys have vastly different levels of the prebiotic, therefore Capilano have developed a test to identify the levels of prebiotic in honeys, which allows them to pack and label these as such, I can't see a problem with doing a lab test to identify which honeys have the higher levels of prebiotic and then label them and sell them, can you?

How does it balance against the health impacts of over consumption of sugars like honey?

I don't think the 14ml that capilano recommend would be damaging in anyway if your diet is balanced, if you add a 6 pack of donuts and a 600ml iced coffee to your day then maybe you will have a sugar problem, but then I guess you should probably be looking at cutting down your less beneficial calories first.

 

[Value Collector]

My problem with VC is him taking any fact checking as an attack;
.

Such as?

can you give me an example of where I have been offended by simple fact checking?

I think you will find the only time I have come close to being offended was when you referenced the false and misleading stuff being spread by the serial pest/conspiracy theorist Mulvany, your post was suggesting that what he was saying was true, and you were questioning the character of the company based on his lies, so that did get my goat a bit.

in regards to varroa mite, I think you view is overly negative.

 

[qldfrog]

Such as?

can you give me an example of where I have been offended by simple fact checking?

I think you will find the only time I have come close to being offended was when you referenced the false and misleading stuff being spread by the serial pest/conspiracy theorist Mulvany, your post was suggesting that what he was saying was true, and you were questioning the character of the company based on his lies, so that did get my goat a bit.

in regards to varroa mite, I think you view is overly negative.

To your surprise, I have not even read, ever. what " serial pest/conspiracy theorist Mulvany" wrote, ever and from memory Mulvany story was after the initial "clash";I do not doubt this guy is on a mission.
but science wise, I am still puzzled at where on earth you can find: your own words: "non digestible plant fibre" in purified and filtered honey sold by CZZ?
This simple assumption you made is I believe untrue, which prompted my email;
But genuinely interested to be proven wrong on that specific item

On the varroa issue, yes I agree I might be too pessimistic but when I see the ravages done by small hive beetles (SHB) which arrived in 2002 in Oz, and the need for chemical treatment required for varroa, i do have a pessimistic view of the future for beekeeping in Oz;
It will change fundamentally and bring the australian honey on par with O/S in term of chemical residues whereas the purity is what makes the difference right now.
I have no vendetta against you VC or CZZ, but I hate when science is falsified.

 

[pixel]

Such as?

can you give me an example of where I have been offended by simple fact checking?

I think you will find the only time I have come close to being offended was when you referenced the false and misleading stuff being spread by the serial pest/conspiracy theorist Mulvany, your post was suggesting that what he was saying was true, and you were questioning the character of the company based on his lies, so that did get my goat a bit.

in regards to varroa mite, I think you view is overly negative.

Thanks, VC, for persisting.
It is clear to me that you have a good grasp of the matter and present the facts in ways that are easily understood. Surely, it is every company's job to present facts (and opinions derived from facts) in a manner that's beneficial from a marketing point of view. Without the Organic Lobby or Vegan Persuaders, there wouldn't be a market for free-range this and all-natural that. Same thing with our new "Beeotic". Incidentally, there are patents pending over the issue, so it would be counter-productive for them to be overly specific about the nature of those beneficial prebiotic compounds and how their process can identify and quantify them. Anybody really interested can always go and study the patent papers.

Recent trading in CZZ shares seems to indicate that the Market has gone past the jitters and the sell-off by waiters-and-seers. When enough mud is being flung around, some will always stick, even when it's fairly obvious sour grapes that caused it. As none of the accusations could be verified, we're getting back to business as usual, and the chart shows it.

One thing Capilano could do over the next few days/ weeks: Keep us informed about the court proceedings and, hopefully, report a win. I wonder if the Court would order a public retraction via Social Media in the same way the innuendo was spread. But I doubt it. People want to believe what they want to believe, and Social Media feeds the gullible.

 

[Value Collector]

To your surprise, I have not even read, ever. what " serial pest/conspiracy theorist Mulvany" wrote, ever and from memory Mulvany story was after the initial "clash";I do not doubt this guy is on a mission.
.

When you wrote post #116, it was just after legal action had begun against Simon Mulvany, the things you were saying you were upset about capilano about where pretty much the same false/misleading claims made by him, so if you weren't reading what he wrote via his website or face book page, you probably were listening to it second hand from some one else, and I believe you were aware of the litigation against him, that's why you were cautious in what you wanted to say in that post.

but science wise, I am still puzzled at where on earth you can find: your own words: "non digestible plant fibre" in purified and filtered honey sold by CZZ?
This simple assumption you made is I believe untrue, which prompted my email;
But genuinely interested to be proven wrong on that specific item

When I first researched what a prebiotic was, I came across information talking about them being "non digestable plant fibre" however after further reading I have realised they can also be "non digestable sugar molecules" and its tha type that are sugar molecules that are found in honey, so I admit its not the plant fibre type.

However either way, I think when you said "Without the selling speech: more like adding a teaspoon of sugar so it will feed your pre existing gut flora" you are not really doing it justice, and you are giving the impression that you can just eat table sugar and you get the prebiotics, which obviously isn't true.

On the varroa issue, yes I agree I might be too pessimistic but when I see the ravages done by small hive beetles (SHB) which arrived in 2002 in Oz, and the need for chemical treatment required for varroa, i do have a pessimistic view of the future for beekeeping in Oz;
It will change fundamentally and bring the australian honey on par with O/S in term of chemical residues whereas the purity is what makes the difference right now.

No doubt it will add a lot more bee husbandry work to bee keepers, but look at New Zealand, they have a great export honey business, and have had varroa since 2000.

Also Varroa management techniques are getting a lot better, so the threat to bee keepers is not dire, the threat to feral bee population however is a lot more.

I have no vendetta against you VC or CZZ, but I hate when science is falsified

Nor I to you, but who is falsifying science? Are you saying the university of NSW are wrong about prebiotics? or are you saying that CZZ can not test which honey has the higher levels?

I hate when good Aussie companies become the target of unfair and misleading claims (by mulvany not you) and and then the general public buy into the nonsense, which I think you did.

I am not saying you made up the claims, just that you seemed to believe them and then warn others before you found out if they were true.

 

[herzy]

I think some of the confusion is caused by the term 'fibre'. Plant fibre is cellulose, which is a string of glucose molecules stuck together. These strands are generally quite long and tough ('fibrous...') and would get filtered out.

No reason a shorter string of sugar molecules would be filtered out. Non-digestible sugar molecules are the same as fibre.

I think everyone here is looking for a scientific approach. Just hoping to clarify...

I reiterate that it's a bit odd not to name an active ingredient beyond 'honey', especially given claims that they can test the levels of the active ingredient.... But I don't doubt some benefits of consuming honey in itself.

 

[qldfrog]

I think some of the confusion is caused by the term 'fibre'. Plant fibre is cellulose, which is a string of glucose molecules stuck together. These strands are generally quite long and tough ('fibrous...') and would get filtered out.

No reason a shorter string of sugar molecules would be filtered out. Non-digestible sugar molecules are the same as fibre.

I think everyone here is looking for a scientific approach. Just hoping to clarify...

I reiterate that it's a bit odd not to name an active ingredient beyond 'honey', especially given claims that they can test the levels of the active ingredient.... But I don't doubt some benefits of consuming honey in itself.

VC cleared that issue to my satisfaction: it was a mistake/oversight from his part, and i appreciate he acknowledged this.
there are no non digestible plant fibre in the honey we are discussing here.
But
There are different sugars: true for all honeys, some will be more or less quickly absorbed and CZZ sells a selected range with claims of a high/higher levels of slow absorbtion sugars;
that is my understanding which makes sense and these slow absorbtion sugars can feed your guts flora.
%, actual sugars involved etc are left unknown
I would probably not bother buying that specific honey when your local beekeeper can provide you unfiltered untreated honey, but as a corporation, CZZ can not afford the risk of pollen left in honey and potential allergic reactions so I can not blame them for that;
I believe this is mostly a hype/trend/fashion exercice: marketing which is used by all companies and in a world when people go on lemon diet one month and feed on whey powder, why not.As long as they do not claim BS, I am happy with that;

 

[qldfrog]

I am not saying you made up the claims, just that you seemed to believe them and then warn others before you found out if they were true.

I was influenced, sure, mostly at the time by what i read about US honey sellers, the provision of fake honey there and discovering that there is a huge worldwide market of "fake" honey, that there is twice as much Manuka honey sold than produced, and the fact that when i took a pot at woolies of some Capilano owned BUT NOT CAPILANO BRANDED (it was their cheap brands), there was a huge bull**** about "australian and imported honey" telling the customer that "in time of shortage, they were using imported honey;".
There is plenty of good honey available in Oz, the import is just justified by cost, and indeed glucose/corn syrup will always be cheaper than real honey.You can get amazing amount of "honey" if you feed sugar syrup to bees and it is very hard near impossible to know what is actually in the cheap imported honey

I would prefer CZZ to be known as a company fighting to increase imports scrutiny in term of composition/chemical residue and play the line of clean organic honey at a premium, EVEN FOR THE LOCAL MARKET.In my opinion, that would make more commercial sense than trying to fight with cheaper inferior products and be at the risk of a headline catching fraud if their import ever get tainted.
They would also be big enough to lobby law makers if they wanted to , as do many other industries.
Thanks VC for acknowledging the error cf fibers and keeping the discussing civil.

 

[Value Collector]

I was influenced, sure, mostly at the time by what i read about US honey sellers, the provision of fake honey there and discovering that there is a huge worldwide market of "fake" honey, that there is twice as much Manuka honey sold than produced, and the fact that when i took a pot at woolies of some Capilano owned BUT NOT CAPILANO BRANDED (it was their cheap brands), there was a huge bull**** about "australian and imported honey" telling the customer that "in time of shortage, they were using imported honey;".
There is plenty of good honey available in Oz, the import is just justified by cost, and indeed glucose/corn syrup will always be cheaper than real honey.You can get amazing amount of "honey" if you feed sugar syrup to bees and it is very hard near impossible to know what is actually in the cheap imported honey

I would prefer CZZ to be known as a company fighting to increase imports scrutiny in term of composition/chemical residue and play the line of clean organic honey at a premium, EVEN FOR THE LOCAL MARKET.In my opinion, that would make more commercial sense than trying to fight with cheaper inferior products and be at the risk of a headline catching fraud if their import ever get tainted.
They would also be big enough to lobby law makers if they wanted to , as do many other industries.
Thanks VC for acknowledging the error cf fibers and keeping the discussing civil.

As I have previously stated, there is absolutely nothing wrong or immoral with importing honey to provide consumers with a cheaper alternative.

Claims that because a honey is imported it automatically follows that the honey must be lower quality or fake are just silly, and border on xenophobia (fear of foreign things).

Capilano's priority is always going to be packing Aussie honey and selling it as capilano branded honey, but there will always be a market for a lower cost honey, and woollies and Coles will be looking for a supplier to fill that gap, so it will either be filled by capilano using their spare packing capacity to locally pack a Aussie/ import blend, or woollies and Coles will import pre packed direct as they have done in the past.

In fact the allowrie brand replaced a honey woollies used to stock that was a 50% sugar blend from China.

Also not all honeys taste the same, some Aussie honeys (especially those off almond farms etc) do not meet the taste standards of most Aussie consumers, so they are blended with better quality imports to raise the taste profile.

The allowrie Brand is often just a blend of the Aussie honeys that don't meet the taste profiles needed for inclusion in the capilano brand, and higher quality imports that can raise this profile.

 

[Value Collector]

so they are blended with better quality imports to raise the taste profile.

.

Here is a video of Capilano's WA packing plant, where we pack the westco bee brand and the capilano brand for sale into the western Australian market.

You will see they are talking about blending honey to meet colour and flavor standards and how the bee keepers that produce the lighter colour honeys get paid more, the flip side to this though means that there will always be darker honeys left over that need to be sold too, blending these with lighter imports and selling them as Allowrie means the consumer gets a better product than just selling them the dark bitter stuff straight, and they get a lower price too.

It's the consumers choice at the end of the day, no one is being tricked or sold "fake" stuff.

 

[pixel]

The 350ml jar of Beeotic is now available at Chemmart for $11.99. That's claimed to be $5 below the RRP, but still about twice the Supermarket price of regular Australian honey.
We bought a jar - purely for "Market Research" reasons, of course

Can't find any objectionable claims on the label, and it tastes like honey should taste.
Nothing more, nothing less.

IMO, even if it were merely a Marketing ploy, I'd say Good on them! People will pay a premium.

 

[pixel]

Short-term trend is pointing upwards.



Higher Lows, Higher High.
Will there be some news before the AGM, due on 18/11?

I hold.

 

[Value Collector]

Hey Guys,

As you are probably aware, Capilano has been the victim of misinformation being spread by certain attention seekers on social media, they have put up a video on their Facebook page to counter the claims, I would love it people could follow the link to face book and like and share the post, we need to get the truth out.

Thanks.
VC

https://www.facebook.com/capilanohoney/?hc_ref=PAGES_TIMELINE&fref=nf

 

[luutzu]

Hey Guys,

As you are probably aware, Capilano has been the victim of misinformation being spread by certain attention seekers on social media, they have put up a video on their Facebook page to counter the claims, I would love it people could follow the link to face book and like and share the post, we need to get the truth out.

Thanks.
VC

https://www.facebook.com/capilanohoney/?hc_ref=PAGES_TIMELINE&fref=nf

You sure there's no fire to that smoke?

btw, can you ask them to change the voice-over for that beeotic ad?

I saw a nice sexy tummy of an adult woman, so I know it's a healthy product I would enjoy then a girl's v/o came on and that's very wrong man.

And it's no me having a sick mind, it's you guys either using sex to sell but totally missing the mark.

 

[pixel]

Hey Guys,

As you are probably aware, Capilano has been the victim of misinformation being spread by certain attention seekers on social media, they have put up a video on their Facebook page to counter the claims, I would love it people could follow the link to face book and like and share the post, we need to get the truth out.

Thanks.
VC

https://www.facebook.com/capilanohoney/?hc_ref=PAGES_TIMELINE&fref=nf

Thanks VC,
I contacted the company in the context of the upcoming AGM, asking to provide some more details about the state of the Court case. I find it a little disconcerting that they haven't been more forthcoming with market information that can refute those slanderous blogs. There have appeared some new blogs, claiming that Capilano admitted to poisoning their product. You had to read through the rant to discover the hyperbole, where the failure to provide proof of NOT poisoning is claimed to amount to admission of guilt.
Utter rubbish, but the illiterati twitterati (Social Media addicts) will lap it up and take it for Gospel.

And some holders may actually believe it - some mud will always stick - and sell their holdings, leading to the current dismal performance of CZZ shares.

PS: I checked the page you provided and tried to "Like" it, but in order to do so, one has to login with a facebook account. And I don't have one.

 

[Value Collector]

You sure there's no fire to that smoke?

.

Yep, it just an attention seeker with a smoke machine.

 

[luutzu]

Yep, it just an attention seeker with a smoke machine.

So what are the guy's claims and why are they false?