Contemporary China - culture, politics & business

[Whiskers]

Since China is becoming such an important trading partner, I am interested in learning more about the good, bad and ugly of dealing with China.

I have even warmed lately to the idea of holidaying in China.

I am particularly interested in first hand experiences of people living there, with business dealings there, holidaying there and particularly if anything is tabo.

 

[CanOz]

Since China is becoming such an important trading partner, I am interested in learning more about the good, bad and ugly of dealing with China.

I have even warmed lately to the idea of holidaying in China.

I am particularly interested in first hand experiences of people living there, with business dealings there, holidaying there and particularly if anything is tabo.

I've been here now for over 2 years Whiskers. Going on holidays to the Sheraton in Jiuzhaigou, a mountain resort in a world hertitage area. Will send photos!

http://www.starwoodhotels.com/shera...GoogleInternational_sheraton_Jiuzhaigou_72106

Ask me anything you like.

Cheers,

 

[alanding]

be careful with the date. Never during 1st of May. 1st of Oct. and the Spring Festival. Otherwise you cannot do nothing, just think how to fight out a way in a crazy crowd

 

[kyme]

I had my honeymoon in beijing. highly recommend travel to China. Felt very safe there, very friendly people. Great shopping, but it pays to haggle and be prepared to walk away to get best deals, chinese businesses run by very very sharp operators. Every one drinks bottled water. Many restaurants have some very strange items on their menus, best to look at their menu before sitting down.

 

[Whiskers]

Thanks guys/gals

That Sheraton in Jiuzhaigou looks great, CanOz.

Looks to have even more character about it than the Sheraton Nooa when I stayed there some years ago. I have heard that many places used to be off limits to tourists. How is the freedom of travel within the country now?

Hi alanding

What happens during 1st of May. 1st of Oct? It might be fun.

Thanks kyme. I kave heard about haggling over price. Been getting a bit of practice in here , but some Aussie business people don't appreciate it.

Many restaurants have some very strange items on their menus, best to look at their menu before sitting down.

Yes, I've heard about cats and dogs on the menu, yuk. Any strange ones you would reccomend trying?

 

[2020hindsight]

This one on the negative side ..
But there are some horrific youtubes out there with pollution in China absolutely out of control!!

Here are some I posted elsewhere:-

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=212063&highlight=pollution#post212063

So much so that some visitors return from China saying it will be pollution that finally caps China's development, and possibly forces political change etc.

I mean there has to be a limit - you can't ignore pollution the way they are doing. ("unsustainable" is a massive understatement)

 

[Whiskers]

Yeah agree totally, 2020. That is really bad. But I wonder how wide spread the pollution problem is... or are there places where they put industry and don't care what happens.

I thought the traditional chinese were amongst the most environmental conscious people in the world. I wonder if the Government doesn't care too much about pollution and just pays lip service to it. For example, I have heard reports that they are considering shutting industry for a period before and over the olympics to clean up the air a bit.

On a different note, I recently saw a documentary about Nokia inspecting chinese factories they were using or considering using for their manufactoring. It seemed to me that Nokia was interested in the public perception that people had about it's products including the treatment of chinese employees in the manufacturing plants. It seemed that international businesses engaging chinese factory owners had more influence over the working conditions of employees than the Government.

In this case Nokia was requiring employees to at least be paid the minimium by chinese law, which many seemed not to be, and preferably closer to european working conditions in terms of a standard 8 hour day instead of 10 to 12. If I understood the film correctly, Nokia didn't wan't its name associated with sweat shops, so they did some cost analysis sums to suggest that factory bosses were fudging the figures represented to Nokia and employees were often payed less and more going into factory owners profits.

 

[YELNATS]

So much so that some visitors return from China saying it will be pollution that finally caps China's development, and possibly forces political change etc.

I mean there has to be a limit - you can't ignore pollution the way they are doing. ("unsustainable" is a massive understatement)

I visited 5 cities in China last January on holidays for 3 weeks.

The 2 northern cities of Beijing and X'ian had incredibly horrible air pollution, the 3 more southern cities Hangzhou, Suzhou and Shanghai were a lot cleaner.

The problem in Beijing in particular seems to be that there is no apparent separation of industrial and residential areas. Densely populated areas of the city are dotted with chimneys belching thick smoke over surrounding blocks of flats. This may have been someone's bright idea of minimising the transport problems of getting workers to and from their jobs, but it's had a massive environmental downside.

 

[CanOz]

Thanks guys/gals

That Sheraton in Jiuzhaigou looks great, CanOz.

Looks to have even more character about it than the Sheraton Nooa when I stayed there some years ago. I have heard that many places used to be off limits to tourists. How is the freedom of travel within the country now?

Hi alanding

What happens during 1st of May. 1st of Oct? It might be fun.

Thanks kyme. I kave heard about haggling over price. Been getting a bit of practice in here , but some Aussie business people don't appreciate it.



Yes, I've heard about cats and dogs on the menu, yuk. Any strange ones you would reccomend trying?

The travel freedom is very good now. May, October and Spring Festival are very hectic times to travel as the whole country takes the days off together. Planes, Trains and buses are very difficult to book, and hotels are hard to get too.

Cheers,

 

[2020hindsight]

. or are there places where they put industry and don't care what happens.

I thought the traditional chinese were amongst the most environmental conscious people in the world. I wonder if the Government doesn't care too much about pollution and just pays lip service to it. For example, I have heard reports that they are considering shutting industry for a period before and over the olympics to clean up the air a bit.

Whiskers & Yelnats,
spot on - Beijing is trying to get the pollution down to acceptable limits for the Olympics - then it will be back to "normal" - full speed ahead - you'd think
plus leaning on the World Bank to "soften their reports" etc

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/07/03/1968915.htm

1mil cars to go in bid to tackle Beijing pollution
By China correspondent Stephen McDonell

Posted Tue Jul 3, 2007 6:01pm AEST

Authorities in Beijing will withdraw one million cars from the city's streets next month in a trial to reduce pollution for next year's Olympics.
Anti-pollution contingencies for next year's Olympic Games include banning all trucks, reducing private car numbers and prohibiting most Government vehicles from driving.

The International Olympic Committee (IOC) is concerned that high pollution levels could harm athletes.

In China, 750,000 people reportedly die prematurely every year because of pollution.

According to The Financial Times newspaper, this research was removed from a recent World Bank report, following pressure from the Chinese Government.

plenty more here :-
http://search.abc.net.au/search/sea...=20&collection=abcall&query=beijing+pollution

 

[CanOz]

The city i live in is adding 5000 cars per month. You can see it in the traffic too, every day worse than the next.

Cheers,

 

[2020hindsight]

The city i live in is adding 5000 cars per month. You can see it in the traffic too, every day worse than the next.

canaus - would it be fair to say that there aren't enough good mechanics to go round?

and hence the exhausts belch out heaps of smoke?

I lived in HK for 5 years - mechanics were few on the ground - a mate bought a 3 year old Mercedes for about AUD $3K - but then again that was all it was worth.

 

[CanOz]

canaus - would it be fair to say that there aren't enough good mechanics to go round?

and hence the exhausts belch out heaps of smoke?

I lived in HK for 5 years - mechanics were few on the ground - a mate bought a 3 year old Mercedes for about AUD $3K - but then again that was all it was worth.

So true, but more like maintenance is non existent, nor desired. Run it into the ground, over work it, over weight it, it doesn't matter.

Its just plain laziness.

Cheers,

 

[shinobi346]

canaus - would it be fair to say that there aren't enough good mechanics to go round?

and hence the exhausts belch out heaps of smoke?

I lived in HK for 5 years - mechanics were few on the ground - a mate bought a 3 year old Mercedes for about AUD $3K - but then again that was all it was worth.

Aren't their taxis mercs over there? They're a lot cheaper than they are here.

 

[CanOz]

Aren't their taxis mercs over there? They're a lot cheaper than they are here.

Volkswagon jetta's, Cheri's, and Hyundai's....Merc's and Bimmers attract luxury tax, although if your friends are in the tax bureau they'll cut you some slack!

Cheers,

 

[2020hindsight]

Aren't their taxis mercs over there? They're a lot cheaper than they are here.

Shinobi - there were heaps of Mercs in HK in those days - you're right lol - diesels and all

Fairly long story, this one, but true

I had an old Vauxhall Viscount up there - beautiful car - walnut dash, big reclining leather seats etc (paid $300 for it) until …. doh ….. I put it in for a oil change and rotate the tyres lol

I picked it up on a Friday afternoon - they said they'd changed the brake master cylinder (??) I asked why ? - the old one they claimed was "lupsup" = "rubbish".

So I went along with it (a bit suspicious) - until I came to the first corner, , where my suspicions were confirmed - and the entire car was braking on one wheel (front left hand). They’d taken my good one and given me a complete dud.

I planned to take the car back to them on the Monday - but that weekend (way out in New Territories) the front left wheel fell off lol. Fortunately going slowly – and the car just rolled onto the wheel. I was in a carpark (at some outpost of the Uni as I recall).

Anyway after a couple of weeks the car had been broken into, the reclining leather seats had been used for all sorts of amorous activity, presumably by students, finally all the windows had all been smashed etc etc. Anyway I took a couple of months to do anything about picking it up (I had another car as well - a $1000 Saab lol).

Flipside of the story - Police rang me after about 3 months - was I Joe Bloggs - I said sure - did I own car AXY 123? - o shinbone I'm thinking, here’s trouble (mild sweat).

We found someone stealing the brake master cylinder off it , and we've taken him to court - charged them - Can we return it to you please . I said ( errr - sure ). - and they did lol.

All I can say is that brake master cylinders were in big demand lol.

 

[Whiskers]

Volkswagon jetta's, Cheri's, and Hyundai's....Merc's and Bimmers attract luxury tax, although if your friends are in the tax bureau they'll cut you some slack!

Cheers,

This is the impression I have... dare I call it corruption. From reports I have seen and read over the years, at least it used to be common practice for businesses to have to 'patronise' officals somehow to get things going.

But on the other hand an offical was executed recently over, I think bribery and some food safety controvosy. Given the enormous pollution issues, it all becomes a bit difficult to reconcile 'protocol' the law and justice system.

 

[Whiskers]

Well, it looks like it is not only the Chinese economy in fast gear, but Chinese attitudes are changing pretty fast too.

It looks like more tough times for US companies trying to rebrand their products to sell to the chinese.

'Made in China' captures its home market Geoff Dyer, Shanghai | October 30, 2007
MOST Chinese consumers say they trust domestic brands more than foreign ones, according to a McKinsey survey.

The survey amounts to a stark warning for multinational companies about nationalist sentiment in China's booming market.

In spite of the furore this year in the US and Europe about the safety of Chinese goods, the survey also shows that Chinese consumers are increasingly confident about the quality of products made there.

Andrew Grant, head of McKinsey's China practice, said the results indicated that multinationals that promoted themselves through their their foreign-made products could struggle in the Chinese market.

"That model might have worked 10 years ago when companies were aiming at wealthy consumers in Shanghai," he said.

"But now that there is a broader affluent class, that strategy is much less effective."

According to the survey results, 53 per cent of the 6000 respondents said they preferred Chinese brands, up from 46 per cent when the same survey was conducted in 2005.

McKinsey, which conducts similar surveys in a number of countries, said this was an unusually large change in sentiment for such a short period.

Only 11 per cent of consumers said they had a "strong" or "moderate" preference for foreign brands, and nearly half of those people said they would shift to a domestic brand if offered a product of similar quality or price.

The only sectors where support for foreign brands matched or exceeded domestic products was in consumer electronics and cars - although in the latter category Chinese brands are rapidly becoming more popular.

The good news for multinationals is that there is considerable confusion about the national identity of some products, with many Chinese consumers believing brands produced by multinationals are actually home grown.

In the case of two well-known US toothpaste brands, for instance, more than 80 per cent of respondents said they thought they were Chinese.

"The successful foreign companies have usually made a real effort to listen to Chinese consumers and create local brand management teams, rather than import approaches from other markets," Mr Grant said.

McKinsey said companies also needed to be more aggressive in introducing new products to the Chinese market.

"In developed countries, companies will often seek to refresh their brand around every three years," he said.

"In China, you need to do something new every six months."

In the past, many Chinese companies had often been happy to make products that were cheap and of reasonable quality, he said.

However, there was now a big opportunity for those companies to invest in establishing brands that appealed to Chinese consumers.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22667531-36375,00.html

 

[KIWIKARLOS]

what about humanitarian abuses in China? how are the police there are they dodgy or only friendly toward westerners and persucute the locals?

Reason i ask is because falung gung has a huge amount of protesting and information handouts in Sydney regarding organ harvesting from its members and human rights abuses?

 

[Whiskers]

A bit of an insight into the Chinese stock market.

"...their market value isn't entirely comparable to those of global peers."

So are they overvalued or not?

China's Inflated Stock Values

By David Wilson

Oct. 30 (Bloomberg) -- Market values for many of the biggest Chinese companies should come with asterisks, like the one that fashion designer Marc Ecko is putting on Barry Bonds's record-setting home-run baseball. Here's why:

-- Government-run companies and funds typically own a controlling stake or an outright majority, limiting the amount of stock available to investors. PetroChina Co., one of the more extreme cases, will be 87 percent state owned after completing a pending $8.9 billion stock sale.

-- The state's holdings are usually in the form of yuan- denominated A shares, which change hands at much higher prices than the H shares companies list in Hong Kong. China Petroleum & Chemical Corp., or Sinopec, is 120 percent more expensive -- the biggest premium among the 12 largest dually listed companies.

-- Companies tend to have fewer publicly listed shares on the mainland than in Hong Kong, contributing to premiums on the A shares. PetroChina, the largest Chinese oil producer, is about to sell 4 billion shares in Shanghai. That's less than a fifth of the 20.9 billion H shares available for trading.

Put all this together, and the effect on valuation is similar to what steroid use might do to a baseball player's power hitting. Bonds, who broke Hank Aaron's home-run record this year, became linked to steroids after the San Francisco Chronicle reported his grand-jury testimony in 2003 that he unknowingly used them.

59 Percent Average

While Bonds has publicly denied taking the drugs and has never been sanctioned for steroid use, Ecko is sending the home- run record ball to Major League Baseball's Hall of Fame with an asterisk. The mark signifies a footnote to Bonds's achievement, according to Ecko, who bought the ball at an online auction.

Chinese companies also deserve footnotes because their market value isn't entirely comparable to those of global peers, whose shares are more freely tradable.

The government's stake in the 12 largest companies with mainland and Hong Kong listings averages 59 percent, according to data compiled by Bloomberg. The total value in dollar terms is $1.26 trillion.

These investments are in the form of A shares at every company but one: China Construction Bank Corp., the country's largest real-estate lender, where the government has H shares.

Yuan-denominated shares are 27 percent more expensive than the Hong Kong shares on average. The difference accounts for 33 percent of the combined value of the government's holdings, or 21 percent of the companies' total market value.

Government's Role

The premium prices for A shares stem not only from their relative scarcity but also from investment limits imposed by the government. Mainland investors can only buy the yuan-denominated shares as a rule. Purchasing the H shares and selling borrowed A shares to profit from their price difference isn't allowed.

Regulators have talked about easing the rules without doing much so far. Putting asterisks next to market values would show they are still in effect, and also serve as a reminder that the government is benefiting the most from a booming stock market.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601039&refer=columnist_wilson&sid=aPN_jS.y.iuM