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Climate change another name for Weather

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Garpal Gumnut said:
sfa comes from a particularly nice verse in Virgil from memory.

Sic fundit amitus.

What did you think it meant?, or am I on the way to the lock up already?

It is used quite frequently in pubs of low repute.

gg
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What about the hats GG?


Never follow me as have been known to frequently follow the wrong path
 
So we are all on the same page, can you provide some links to this 'junk science' you keep referring to? The term seems contradictory to me.
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Hi Spooly,

It is hard to get everyone on the same page. If your prepared to follow the story I'll try to get it across.

It's fair to say that absolute certainties are going to be rare in science. There may be some obvious ones like the fact that arsenic will kill you, and falling off a high building is not going to be a good look. But what about trying to show some connection between say smoking and lung cancer? how about problems associated with a new drug say Vioxx ?

In cases likes this independent scientists may start to find disturbing correlations which indicate that smoking and later on second had smoke can increase the risk of respiratory disease. On that basis it seems like a good idea to warn the public, perhaps even see it as a public health issue.

Of course this is not what tobacco companies or drug companies want to hear. So given the commercial nature of the companies they have (and will) fund their own research and then, as history has proven. selectively release the best results that favour their product and then claim that this shows there isn't really a problem please go away.

This is now all on the public record Spooly. Internal documents from the companies, trials, the whole lot.

Back to climate change.

I posted earlier some research which examined the beginning of the concerted anti GW push of the early 90's. ( I'd like to remind readers again that if the following statements were untrue the Guardian would have been sued for libel.)

As you can see from the highlighted sections the original objective of the front group was to discredit the EPA's finding on secondary tobacco smoke. To make the story look better they decided to extend their target to a broader range of issues so it didn't seem to be simply depending the tobacco industry. They picked on GW as a good example amongst others.

The clever part was coming up with the all encompassing phrase Junk Science which could be used to denigrate anything that didn't suit their client. And of course Sound Science was the phrase for the industry research that, surprise surprise, didn't show the problems other research brought up.


All this is now well known to climate scientists and environmentalists. But what I have discovered while researching this issue is that the corporate funding of lobby groups denying that manmade climate change is taking place was initiated not by Exxon, or by any other firm directly involved in the fossil fuel industry. It was started by the tobacco company Philip Morris.

In December 1992, the US Environmental Protection Agency published a 500-page report called Respiratory Health Effects of Passive Smoking. It found that "the widespread exposure to environmental tobacco smoke (ETS) in the United States presents a serious and substantial public health impact. In adults: ETS is a human lung carcinogen, responsible for approximately 3,000 lung cancer deaths annually in US non-smokers. In children: ETS exposure is causally associated with an increased risk of lower respiratory tract infections such as bronchitis and pneumonia. This report estimates that 150,000 to 300,000 cases annually in infants and young children up to 18 months of age are attributable to ETS."

Had it not been for the settlement of a major class action against the tobacco companies in the US, we would never have been able to see what happened next. But in 1998 they were forced to publish their internal documents and post them on the internet.

Within two months of its publication, Philip Morris, the world's biggest tobacco firm, had devised a strategy for dealing with the passive-smoking report. In February 1993 Ellen Merlo, its senior vice-president of corporate affairs, sent a letter to William I Campbell, Philip Morris's chief executive officer and president, explaining her intentions: "Our overriding objective is to discredit the EPA report ... Concurrently, it is our objective to prevent states and cities, as well as businesses, from passive-smoking bans."

To this end, she had hired a public relations company called APCO. She had attached the advice it had given her. APCO warned that: "No matter how strong the arguments, industry spokespeople are, in and of themselves, not always credible or appropriate messengers."

So the fight against a ban on passive smoking had to be associated with other people and other issues. Philip Morris, APCO said, needed to create the impression of a "grassroots" movement - one that had been formed spontaneously by concerned citizens to fight "overregulation". It should portray the danger of tobacco smoke as just one "unfounded fear" among others, such as concerns about pesticides and cellphones. APCO proposed to set up "a national coalition intended to educate the media, public officials and the public about the dangers of 'junk science'. Coalition will address credibility of government's scientific studies, risk-assessment techniques and misuse of tax dollars ... Upon formation of Coalition, key leaders will begin media outreach, eg editorial board tours, opinion articles, and brief elected officials in selected states."

APCO would found the coalition, write its mission statements, and "prepare and place opinion articles in key markets". For this it required $150,000 for its own fees and $75,000 for the coalition's costs.

By May 1993, as another memo from APCO to Philip Morris shows, the fake citizens' group had a name: the Advancement of Sound Science Coalition. It was important, further letters stated, "to ensure that TASSC has a diverse group of contributors"; to "link the tobacco issue with other more 'politically correct' products"; and to associate scientific studies that cast smoking in a bad light with "broader questions about government research and regulations" - such as "global warming", "nuclear waste disposal" and "biotechnology". APCO would engage in the "intensive recruitment of high-profile representatives from business and industry, scientists, public officials, and other individuals interested in promoting the use of sound science"
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The key point about the whole issue ? Much of the discussion around public health issues as well as GW has been run by PR organisations funding nominally independent groups and feeding them carefully constructed stories. Any reasonably objective truth if it threatens the interests of the client is rubbished as Junk Science.

References, Further information

Industry groups are fighting government regulation by formenting scientific uncertainty
http://www.powerlinefacts.com/Sciam_article_on_lobbying.htm

Definition of Junk Science according to website Junk Science (this was one of the key bodies supported by Exxon to create doubt about the cause of global warming. But hell they will attack anyone.

http://www.junkscience.com/define.html

Consumer Unions definition of Junk Science
The Consumers Union (US) wrote that "as far as we have been able to trace, the phrase "junk science" has been coined by those practicing public relations and lobbying activities on behalf of some companies in certain industries--particularly the plastics, chemical, biotechnology, and pesticide industries. While its coiners may have legitimate grounds for debate on some issues, the phrase has been used far too often to discredit honest public interest organizations and legitimate scientists who express concerns about consumer safety and environmental risks." [1]

While the phrase "junk science" is used by corporations, governments and front groups to discredit public interest and consumer activists, the phrase "sound science" is employed to describe the research said to back-up industry's own claims on safety and risk
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http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Junk_science
 
after considering all the evidence I have concluded that there is no global warming as a result of human activity.

In the unlikely case there is, it's insignificant.

Global warming is a good thing and we should strive toward that end. Within reason.

Global warming fanatics should put their money where their mouth is and sell all waterfront property to us sceptics. I don't see that happening. In fact those properties just keep appreciating.

The Arabs are building artificial islands one metre above water knowing full well that the oceans won't rise for a very very very long time. They are betting trillions on it.
 
after considering all the evidence I have concluded that there is no global warming as a result of human activity.

In the unlikely case there is, it's insignificant.

Global warming is a good thing and we should strive toward that end. Within reason.

Global warming fanatics should put their money where their mouth is and sell all waterfront property to us sceptics. I don't see that happening. In fact those properties just keep appreciating.

The Arabs are building artificial islands one metre above water knowing full well that the oceans won't rise for a very very very long time. They are betting trillions on it.
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Well that finalises the issue rather well doesn't it ? We can all go to sleep soundly knowing that because the Arabs are building artificial islands a meter above sea level there can't possibly be more than an intsy, bitsy amount of sea level rise...

And yes I would be delighted to sell my waterfront apartments (if I had a few to spare.);)
 
after considering all the evidence I have concluded that there is no global warming as a result of human activity.
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What evidence, almost all concede the evidence is subjective. Anyway we are talking about climate change.

In the unlikely case there is, it's insignificant.
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What evidence says that GW is unlikely.

Global warming is a good thing and we should strive toward that end. Within reason.
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Why do you say within reason? hesitation here, if you are uncertain should we not err on the side of caution and reduce emissions anyway.

Global warming fanatics should put their money where their mouth is and sell all waterfront property to us sceptics. I don't see that happening. In fact those properties just keep appreciating.
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Why the word "fanatic" I respect the position of others and have never felt the need to denigrate to get my point across. Another indication of uncertainty. Remember the old "stick and stones..."

The Arabs are building artificial islands one metre above water knowing full well that the oceans won't rise for a very very very long time. They are betting trillions on it.
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Whilst their underclass starve and they use virtual slave labour from India. Wonder why they are building them so tall.
 
Hehehe, well I'm just being light hearted about it. But still it's a valid point. The markets don't lie. Waterfront houses will continue to increase in price.

If I Wanted to be serious about it I would point toward the EU socialists, protectionsts, unions, and other dark and shady forces wanting to impose a justification for their protectionist policies especially against the developing world.

Eg, unless you don't conform to our rules and buy our expensive technology we won't trade with you and will impose duties and taxes to offset your more competitive and lower cost production.

The greens are reds In Disguise. :)
 
slim pickins said:
Global warming is a good thing and we should strive toward that end. Within reason.
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Certainly the Greenlanders are hoping it is not a hoax. They would like to see the mild climate return that existed up until the 1400s and the advent of the Little Ice Age.(ie climate change)

Up to that time Southern Greenland supported trees, agriculture and livestock.
 
Hehehe, well I'm just being light hearted about it. But still it's a valid point. The markets don't lie. Waterfront houses will continue to increase in price.
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Some Councils in Australia are refusing permits to land previously subdivided for residential based on the evidence of rising seas. And as a side issue, you cant sell a beach side property at the moment on the Mornignton Pensisula in the $500,000 to 2 mill range. But that is prolly just economics at the moment.

If I Wanted to be serious about it I would point toward the EU socialists, protectionsts, unions, and other dark and shady forces wanting to impose a justification for their protectionist policies especially against the developing world.
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The US have just gone solialist in a big way by buying all the banks etc. Sweeden is Solialist and are going zero co2 by 2020. Denmark also Socialist have a huge alternative industry going on. PB and Siemens are investing heavily and pofitably in alternate energy. Wonder why they are getting on the bandwagon. Big bucks. Babcock and Brown wind paying 8% dividend. Pretty good yield in this stuff. THIS IS SERIOUS


Eg, unless you don't conform to our rules and buy our expensive technology we won't trade with you and will impose duties and taxes to offset your more competitive and lower cost production.
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Rules, that sounds like the good ole US of A or the old communist block. Many cannot get the distinction between the commo and the socialist.

The greens are reds In Disguise.
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That was the old Sir Robert Menzies cry, pig ion bob, sold scrap metal to the Japanese who later bombed us with it at Perl Harbour.
 
slim pickins said:
Hehehe, well I'm just being light hearted about it.
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Careful Slim. Humour to an alarmist is like a red rag to a bull. They regard their mission to educate the heretics as sacred, and will not take kindly to anyone not taking them seriously.

The time may come (if not already here) when to criticise them will be regarded as politically incorrect
 
Booker's article quoted by Wayne, above, is a classic example of the type of distortions that are spruiked by junk scientists.
Sea ice was at its lowest recorded levels last year, and the areal extent this year was greater.
Had Booker quoted "perennial ice" or "land ice" instead, it would have been a totally different story.
Sea ice is a function of local climate and can form quickly in the right conditions - as indeed it did this year. However, the sea ice was thinner this year than ever recorded, as proven by Russia's North Pole-35 station team who abandoned their ice floe a month earlier than usual.
Antarctic sea ice is a a much better story for those living in Wayne's world and they thought they had a more compelling story by adding it to their armoury.
But alas, sea ice is transient - coming and going synchronously with the seasons, whereas Antarctic land ice is disappearing at a geologically frenetic pace.
Booker's attempt to twist the knife into "warmers" by quoting on butterflies is remarkable for its stupidity. Several butterfly species are known to now flourish as warming has provided them a new environment where they are less prone to disease and predation. In the specific case of the Small Tortoiseshell butterfly mentioned by Booker, it is found throughout Europe and Asia and would require a massive climate event to affect its survival.
Some meatier topics please....
 
Calliope said:
Careful Slim. Humour to an alarmist is like a red rag to a bull. They regard their mission to educate the heretics as sacred, and will not take kindly to anyone not taking them seriously.

The time may come (if not already here) when to criticise them will be regarded as politically incorrect
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You cant educate those from the shallow end of the gene pool. And nowhere have I observed evidence of greens supporting arms and aggression. Sense of humour, well if the argument is being lost some resort to crap way off topic. Stirring, love the motivation guys, go for it.
 
explod said:
You cant educate those from the shallow end of the gene pool. And nowhere have I observed evidence of greens supporting arms and aggression. Sense of humour, well if the argument is being lost some resort to crap way off topic. Stirring, love the motivation guys, go for it.
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Firstly explod the shallow end is where one is most likely to spread ones genes, think back to your golden days, in the local swimming pool.

Secondly , I find greenies have an excess of testosterone and a deficiency of final commitment to either congress or nation building.

That bearded bloke chasing the japs in the Southern Ocean is a case in point.

Thirdly have a Happy Christmas mate.

gg
 
Calliope said:
The time may come (if not already here) when to criticise them will be regarded as politically incorrect
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Judging from the quality posts of heretics we are more likely to be brought before HREOC for mistreating the intellectually impaired.
 
rederob said:
Judging from the quality posts of heretics we are more likely to be brought before HREOC for mistreating the intellectually impaired.
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Red mate you love quangos.

Imagine if there were none and we all had to make a quid without them.

gg
 
Garpal Gumnut said:
Secondly , I find greenies have an excess of testosterone and a deficiency of final commitment to either congress or nation building.

That bearded bloke chasing the japs in the Southern Ocean is a case in point.
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That well fed bearded bloke is doing it because it's well funded and it's fun and it beats working for a living. As Ratty said in Wind in the Willows
there is nothing half so much worth doing as mucking about in boats.
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There could also be some fringe benefits. When Daryl Hannah was asked before she joined the boat for a few days for a publicity stunt, what she would do on the boat, she said she would do whatever the Captain asked her to. She didn't stay long.
 
Garpal Gumnut said:
Firstly explod the shallow end is where one is most likely to spread ones genes, think back to your golden days, in the local swimming pool.

Secondly , I find greenies have an excess of testosterone and a deficiency of final commitment to either congress or nation building.

That bearded bloke chasing the japs in the Southern Ocean is a case in point.

Thirdly have a Happy Christmas mate.

gg
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You and yours too for the festive.

Waiting for your final take on the hats though old pal.
 
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