Australian (ASX) Stock Market Forum

Cigarette smoke

Smoking in public should definitely be banned. Why should I have to breathe in poisonous and harmful cigarette smoke when I walk down the street.
Why should I have my clothes permeated with the smell.
Sure, exhaust emissions pollute the atmosphere too, but we can't do without aircraft and other vehicles. But we can certainly do without cigarette smoke.
At least cars and planes etc serve a necessary and useful purpose, unlike cigarettes.
Everyone who smokes is being foolish in the extreme. It simply does not make sense for smokers to pay exorbitant sums of money for something that destroys their health and causes discomfort and harm to everyone around them.
Females in particular should avoid cigarettes like the plague. Quite apart from the risks associated with smoking during pregnancy, the softer skin of females is badly affected by cigarette smoke. Just observe how many hard faced women you see puffing away on a cigarette, old before their time, their faces dried out and wrinkled well beyond their years.
My aunty, aged 80, is one of the ugliest women I've ever seen. Her face is incredibly wrinkled and dried out. Yes, I know, women of 80 all have wrinkled faces. But not like my aunty......I'm not exaggerating when I say that she is absolutely hideously ugly to look at.
As a young woman she had movie star looks. I've seen various photos of her, including her wedding photos, and she was equally as beautiful as any of the film stars of the time.....Ava Gardner, Audrey Hepburn, Vivian Lee. My mother still talks about what a stunner my aunty was as a young woman, and how the young blokes were all chasing her.
She smoked heavily from the age of 18, and it destroyed her looks completely. Even thirty years ago she was extremely hard faced and on the verge of ugliness as I recall. She still smokes 30 a day, even at the age of 80. It's a mystery to me why she hasn't succumbed to lung cancer. She is gradually succumbing to emphysema though. She has difficult breathing and will soon need to be on breathing assistance equipment. Her voice is so gravely that it's difficult to understand her when she speaks. She has never made a serious effort to stop smoking.
I don't understand why smokers don't do whatever is necessary to quit. Sure it's difficult, but it can be done. These days there are many good programs available to help people kick the habit. Strange thing is, most of the smokers I know have never even tried these quit programs.

Bunyip
 
Yes, telling people what to do sure does convince them the error of their ways. Why do teenagers start smoking I wonder?
 
Agreed that smoking isn't good (that's why I quit... anyone for one of those annoying ex-smokers lectures? :D ) but it's a fair way down the list of great evils IMO.

Hydrogenated vegetable oil is another known nasty that isn't at all good for your health. And yet it's so common that most of use would have eaten some today in some sort of processed food or added it to our own cooking at home. And we don't need it at all.

What about diesel exhaust on buses? There's no valid reason, apart from cost, to not put the exhaust on the top of the bus rather than out the back. It won't reduce the total pollution but would avoid concentrated doses for following drivers and pedestrians. Diesel exhaust is to my understanding known to be carcinogenic or at least strongly suspected as being such.

What about refined white sugar? Another nasty that we don't need but most choose to use on a regular basis.

What about alcohol? I've personally witnessed more harm done by this stuff than all other drugs, including cigarettes, put together. And yet it's still legal to advertise and still considered socially acceptable. It affects many in addition to drinkers themselves (as does smoking) and causes many innocent deaths on the roads, violence on the streets and in homes etc. And we don't need it at all for human consumption.

Why don't we have pictures of smashed cars with dead bodies on beer cans? Or bashed wives and children? Yes I'm being serious, alcohol takes a huge toll that goes largely unrecognised by the majority of society (hardly surprising when most people are using this particular drug).

What about solariums? Paying good money and using electricity (production of which, for 90% of the power supply in Australia, involves air pollution) in order to increase your risk of skin cancer whilst aging the skin. Another thing we do which harms health but we don't actually need.

What about loud music? Any industrial business would be fined or sued out of existance for exposing workers to sound levels that are considered perfectly normal in nightclubs and concert venues. As with smoking, my taxes will be paying for all that hearing damage in years to come. It's shocking to realise just how many have permanent hearing damage at an age when even heavy smoking would be unlikely to have caused serious harm.

What about cars? Sure, we need cars but we don't actually need the vast majority of oversize SUV's pumping out fumes and guzzling the world's dwindling oil supplies. If you add in the military aspect of keeping the oil flowing and future lives lost from global warming then there's quite a toll there and it's largely unnecessary.

What about deodorant sprays? Ever had the experience of someone spraying the stuff on a bus? It's outright disgusting and you're breathing in some seriously nasty stuff (just look at the ingredients on the can). Why not ban the aerosol type given that roll-on does the same job with less harm to the environment and less human exposure (via inhalation) to the nasties?

What about illegal drugs? I would MUCH rather see some 18 year old woman smoking an ordinary cigarette than see someone messing with dope or harder drugs. At least with the cigarettes they have a decade or so to reconsider and quit before any serious harm is likely. There's a lot of dumbed down people out there due to illegal drugs and many of them are under 30 - they're not hard to spot once you know what to look for. As for those frying their brains with ice etc, what more can I say? Too late, the damage is done at such a young age.

What about all those cars with asbestos brakes? They were still being installed until about 3 years ago despite the dangers being known before cars were at all common. We're breathing it in cities every day whether we drive or not and it's a known killer. You'd be amazed at just how much asbestos you've probably been exposed to even if you've never knowingly encountered the stuff. Again, it's totally unnecessary but it was cheap and we live in a world where the $ trumps over human health practically every time.

Bottom line is there's lots of nasty things that are either known to be bad for your health or which commonsense would suggest aren't good that most of us are either doing ourselves or are exposed to. And most of them aren't necessary since healthier alternatives are readily available. Smoking is just another one - if people want to do it then it's their business IMO. It's not good but there is worse. And we do live in a "free" society where banning such things is somewhat out of place.

That said, I'm glad that it's no longer allowed in shopping centres, pubs & clubs etc and I think there's justification for banning it in moving vehicles (on the grounds of road safety - I've seen plenty of cigarette-induced bad driving and of course butts thrown from the window are a known cause of major fires) and also in any enclosed space (including private homes) where children are present. Smoking in front of children in an enclosed space, just like drinking while pregnant, is child abuse and ought to be treated as such IMO.
 
Firstly, I have not personally attacked anyone for expressing their views pro cigarettes, so if anyone feels the need to do it to others then thats their choice, as is smoking. Ive seen a couple so far on this thread.

Surely noone disagrees on the following:
- Butts are litter
- Smoking in front of others who can breathe in the smoke is bad and removes their right to choice
- Smoking when pregnant is bad and unfair on the human being it affects
- Smoking is bad for your health
- Smoking is bad for all of us who are taxpayers and pay for the public health system
- Smoking in fron of kids is bad
- Smoking starts fires
- Lots of smokers throw their butts out the car window or butt out on the ground

Secondly, re Soy, I did a google after Milk Mans advice on the effects of Soy, funnily it is one of those things that 50% of websites say its bad and the other 50% say that it is good, depends on whos paying you I guess. So for every website you post there is another saying the opposite, anyone can pick a website off the millions on the internet.

Guess the good outweighs the bad and it is neutral! (By the way, I love dairy!).
 
Nicks said:
Smokers are all suckers to tobacco companies. If you cal let someone convince you to pay money to injest something that is disgusting and dangerous to you health, then you are just simply an idiot.

Naaah you havent attacked anyone. Noboby minds being called an idiot or a sucker.

But there was a time that scientists argued over the danger of tobacco much like soy now.
I consider soy milk to be disgusting. And having looked at the pros an cons, I think its dangerous to my health.

How many years was margarine promoted as a health food. I read a book over 20 years ago that said never eat margarine. So infromation about its risks has been around for a long time.
The same book said never use sunscreen. And now we are seeing skin cancer caused by sunscreen use
 
Bloveld said:
Naaah you havent attacked anyone. Noboby minds being called an idiot or a sucker.

But there was a time that scientists argued over the danger of tobacco much like soy now.
I consider soy milk to be disgusting. And having looked at the pros an cons, I think its dangerous to my health.

How many years was margarine promoted as a health food. I read a book over 20 years ago that said never eat margarine. So infromation about its risks has been around for a long time.
The same book said never use sunscreen. And now we are seeing skin cancer caused by sunscreen use

Most of the smokers I know are happy to admit they're idiots for smoking, and that taking up the habit in the first place was an idiotic thing to do.
I don't think they'd disagree with me for a second if I told them they're suckers to the cigarette companies.
They know it's destroying their fitness and health, they bemoan how much money it's costing them, they admit it's inconsiderate to others.
Yet they continue doing it, and most of them haven't even looked into the various quit programs that could help them kick the habit.



Bunyip
 
bunyip said:
Most of the smokers I know are happy to admit they're idiots for smoking, and that taking up the habit in the first place was an idiotic thing to do.
I don't think they'd disagree with me for a second if I told them they're suckers to the cigarette companies.
They know it's destroying their fitness and health, they bemoan how much money it's costing them, they admit it's inconsiderate to others.
Yet they continue doing it, and most of them haven't even looked into the various quit programs that could help them kick the habit.



Bunyip


No argument here. They are definately idiots.

But then I dont mind attacking people.

Cheers Steve
 
Smurf1976 said:
Agreed that smoking isn't good ...
Hydrogenated vegetable oil ...
What about diesel exhaust ...
What about refined white sugar?
What about alcohol?
I've personally witnessed more harm done by this stuff than all other drugs,
Why don't we have pictures of smashed cars with dead bodies on beer cans? Or bashed wives and children?
What about solariums?
What about loud music?
What about cars?
What about deodorant sprays?
What about illegal drugs?
What about all those cars with asbestos brakes?
Bottom line is there's lots of nasty things that are either known to be bad for your health or which commonsense would suggest aren't good that most of us are either doing ourselves or are exposed to. And most of them aren't necessary since healthier alternatives are readily available. Smoking is just another one - if people want to do it then it's their business IMO.
drinking while pregnant, is child abuse ..
Smurf, Man you are without doubt and by a country mile the most informed and thorough person on this sort of topic that the western world has seen in 20 years ;)
are you seriously a 1976 vintage ? sheesh. - bet youve got a PhD in "smoking, sources of power, and other similar topics"
... having said that I want to express my prejudice about smoking versus all of the above - see it is so devoid of a counterbalancing good effect... at least diesel gets someone from A to B. - deodorants stop people smelling (although I could personally care less - they say they've found deodorant in breast cancers for instance - id prefer my wife to have bo as well as boobs) ...
I occasionally see cigarett butts in the kids rooms and I go off the handle .. tobacco ...I absolutely hate the stuff. I mean as if there is any difference between the cigarette companies and a common backstreet drugpusher, Id be interested in hearing about it!. The British got into China during the opium wars with similar tactics. Missionaries pushing drugs.
But anyway - its fascinating to read your incredibly fair and wide ranging replies to these threads ;)


The only way I can respond is to remember that comedian (I thought he was called Bob Newhart !!!(remembered at last ) who did that skit about Sir Walter Raleigh discovering smoking having met up with the red indians... you recall I'm sure ... Hello,, oh yeah hi wal (aside hey fellas its mad wal lol".... and you stick this dead leaf in your mouth and you... you set fire to it, wal ... lol - sounds great wal ...;)"

btw, you know you have lost the war against tobacco when yuor partner, in the midst of a lovely meal at a romantic restaurant , suddenly says "just gotta duck outside dear ... " ;) o boy - such a big chunk of a relationship wiped away by a drug dependency ... sheesh - but I agree its hard to put into words
Ahhh At last I have found something you missed ...not only drinking whilst pregnant my friend, dont forget also smoking ;)
 
I should have pointed out in my original post that there has been at least one tobacco-caused death in my family in the past 15 years and another came very close to suffering serious disability as a direct result of smoking.

But I'm far more on the liberty side than the socialist side in my general thinking. You know the risks of smoking. Your choice but don't sue anyone if you get sick and don't expose others to your smoke. Or alcohol. Or hydrogenated oils. Or...

Life is short so no point spending all your time worrying about it ending. But I'll say this - just look at all these diseases that are now common that were unheard of a century ago. Lung cancer is but one of them - time to publicly identify what's causing the others, a topic that I first became interested in through the asthma debate (which in the Tasmanian context is absolutely tied to the long running Hydro versus wood heating debate, hence my interest). :2twocents
 
2020hindsight said:
Smurf, ...The only way I can respond is to remember that comedian (I thought he was called Bob Newhart !!!(remembered at last ) who did that skit about Sir Walter Raleigh
... "The introduction of Tobacco to Civilization," wherein a telephone call from Sir Walter Raleigh prompts skeptical laughter in England:

"Are you saying "snuff," Walt? What's snuff? You take a pinch of tobacco (starts giggling) and you shove it up your nose! And it makes you sneeze, huh. I imagine it would, Walt, yeah. Goldenrod seems to do it pretty well over here. It has some other uses, though. You can chew it? Or put it in a pipe. Or you can shred it up and put it on a piece of paper, and roll it up - don't tell me, Walt, don't tell me- you stick in your ear, right Walt? Oh, between your lips! Then what do you do to it? (Giggling) You set fire to it! Then what do you do Walt? You inhale the smoke! Walt, we've been a little worried about you...you're gonna have a tough time getting people to stick burning leaves in their mouth...."

Said H. Allen Smith, "That thing about tobacco and cigarettes is possibly the greatest single comedy routine I've seen or heard in my entire life."

Well - lol I'm not sure about the superlatives in the humour dept - but it sure explores the stupidity of the topic...If it came to straight humour, Id probably pick Billy Connolly, or the Goons, or the Goodies, or any of the Pink Panther movies or ... ;)

PS you mention Tasmania mate ... One of my Great grandfathers came out about 1860 - met his wife in Glenorchy - I have a letter from his father to him "If I had 100 sons I would send them all to the southern hemisphere... either Van Diemans land or Natal, opportunity etcetc ...the sad thing is that England is not sinking by the efforts of a foreign power but by its own stupidity" etcetc makes for a great read with a bottle of old port ;)
PPS Is asthma also related to being sprayed by the cropdusters who work the insecticides in the timber country? - lethal, man....bludy murder.
 
Instead of attacking smokers , if non-smokers took the time out to understand why ? . they would do themselves a favour -- after all no-one wins in war ! -- which antismoking groups have turned this into from the smokers perspective


Just a few facts as I understand them from a course the NSW Heath Dept. runs through the Hospitail System :

That over 75% of Westerners a genericaly biologically addictive to nicotine , as opposed to Easterners who are around 20% , but they have the same addictive problem with opuim --- this why you rarely see Asians Smoking .

The Addiction is caused by domant receptors in the brain cells , from the very first exposure to nicotine these receptors awaken and begin to mulitply and must be feed , similar to the receptors for thirst , as the nicotine is only active in blood stream for around 20 min , the receptors start craving for more just the same as a thirsty person is craving for liquid .

You can compare a smoker who is trying to quite to someone who has medical problem and was told that for the rest of their life they could only take liquids through a drip but not by mouth --- ouch !

The reason nicorette gum/patchs fail more often than they succeced it because they are still feeding the receptors, all they can do is help break the habit side , but they are of no use in breaking the addiction side .

The only way to succesfully stop , is to stop the flow of nicotine to the recepters for around 3 mths because they will then go back into dormancy -- but this like saying you can't have any liquids for 3 mths .


Goverments and Antismoking groups instead of running a hate campain would better serve themselves and smokers by trying to help ---- most smokers would love to be able to just quite with out all the anguish .

For a start -- call a truce !

Over a seven year period , increase the legal age to 25 .

Over the same period , gradually decrease the legal nicotine level allowed in tobacco products -- initally most would smoke more , but over a period of time would revert back to their lower levels.

Reduce the amount of cigs in a pack back to 10 --- smokers tend to smoke a pack a day --- years ago 10 was the standard pack

Gradually decrease the size --- again years ago cigs where much smaller --- Rothmans introduced the king size cig of today.

This measures taken as a group would help make far eaiser for a smoker to quit


Most smokers are crying out for HELP , but in return all they get is attacked.


Just my thoughts

Cheers
 
coyotte said:
Instead of attacking smokers , if non-smokers took the time out to understand why ? . ....For a start -- call a truce ! Over a seven year period , increase the legal age to 25 ...Over the same period , gradually decrease the legal nicotine level allowed in tobacco products -- initally most would smoke more , but over a period of time would revert back to their lower levels...Reduce the amount of cigs in a pack back to 10 --- smokers tend to smoke a pack a day --- years ago 10 was the standard pack
.. This measures taken as a group would help make far eaiser for a smoker to quit ..Most smokers are crying out for HELP , but in return all they get is attacked. Just my thoughts. Cheers
I think we all know why mate - there's a monkey on their back, poor bugas. I agree with you entirely there. I also agree with trying to keep kids away from it with age limits - (maybe stop 5% of them starting).
Not sure I hold your optimism that reducing the size of packets would help.
As for govt ads, I had a close relative who lost both legs due to circulatory probs partly brought on by smoking (also diabetes to be fair) - and also had a paralysed arm and lost his speech due to a stroke. Quality of life? you can guess. You think I'm going to agree that the TV ads are exaggerating? Just some more thoughts.;)

Milkman - see you in the City to Surf next year ;) - there's a dare - you'll enjoy it.
Take up jujitsu mate; ugi - goshi that bloody monkey over a cliff;)
 
Bloveld said:
Naaah you havent attacked anyone. Noboby minds being called an idiot or a sucker.

But there was a time that scientists argued over the danger of tobacco much like soy now.
I consider soy milk to be disgusting. And having looked at the pros an cons, I think its dangerous to my health.

How many years was margarine promoted as a health food. I read a book over 20 years ago that said never eat margarine. So infromation about its risks has been around for a long time.
The same book said never use sunscreen. And now we are seeing skin cancer caused by sunscreen use

Well it wasn't directed at an individual.

While Soy may be still an unknown, smoking isnt. That said I will be looking more into the Soy thing with interest.
 
We found dozen ways to understand smokers, is there a way to protect me from passive smoking?

And I am not talking about going to hard rock cafe or smoking den or pub.

I am talking about getting access to hospital, or government building or shopping centre and not being exposed to cigarette smoke.
 
hello everyone

if smokers want to exercise their right to smoke then that's fine as it's their choice but I then exercise my right to tell them where they can and can't smoke :) I don't allow smoking in my home or in my car for starters. Passive smoke is a proven health hazard.
 
2020hindsight said:
Milkman - see you in the City to Surf next year ;) - there's a dare - you'll enjoy it.
Milkman - sorry mate I just realised I'm being presumptive in assuming you're not already doing the city2surf ;) - in which case Let's have a case of beer on who wins (sure Im a hypocrite on that score) - might do two training runs next year instead of just the one. btw, You know you're not as fit as you should be when a 90 year old runs past you on the hill like "Cliff Young passing a road train". ;) :walker:
 
rocket_science said:
hello everyone

if smokers want to exercise their right to smoke then that's fine as it's their choice but I then exercise my right to tell them where they can and can't smoke :) I don't allow smoking in my home or in my car for starters. Passive smoke is a proven health hazard.

Wow, I bet you are really proud of yourself.
Never mind the thousands of litres of car exhaust you produce, enviromental damage from oil production and refining, pollution from car batteries, tyres and brakes.
Then theres the toxins in your house, paint, adhesives and carpets. The trees cut down for timber, quarries dug for sand an cement.
Do you use electricity or gas? Both are a source of pollution. What about radiation from electrical distribution? Do you use a mobile phone?
Driving a car is a proven health hazard. Getting out of bed is a health hazard. Walking out the door in the morning is a health hazard.

We already have seen that people can live into there eighties smoking 30 a day, and you are worried about getting the equivalent of a few smokes in a year. Now thats paranoid.

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/05/21/1053196637934.html

I like the last line of this article

The scientific evidence is just not there, says Enstrom. "But maybe we've gone past the point where anyone cares about the facts."
 
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