China on our doorstep

[Dona Ferentes]

when the Americans invaded Korea

No. UN force assembled to push back invading Chinese.

Vietnam,

No. Backed one side

Laos,

Bombed, not invaded

Cambodia,

Bombed, not invaded

Afghanistan, Iraq,

Al Qaeda?

Haiti plus a few others.

Destabilized, backed a coup. Not invaded

 

[IFocus]

Involving Chinese Citizens does not make it democracy.

Similar to the US then?

Tongue in cheek but not far from the truth.

 

[rederob]

Involving Chinese Citizens does not make it democracy.

How about you address the point I made and stop running your straw man case.
Worse, you seem oblivious to what makes a democracy.

Only you and the CCP could possible believe that.

Not the point I made, so you are running a case against yourself here.

Because like most governments, Oz has bowed to pressure from a larger more powerful trading partner, and will take the path that suits its own (or DFAT's) foreign interests. Nothing to do with whether OZ thinks that any part of China is democratic.

Can we include the price of eggs in that irrelevance? China was been a sovereign nation well before its industrial rise.

Just like it did when the Americans invaded Korea, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Afghanistan, Iraq, Haiti plus a few others.
Oz went along with it because it suited (some) politician and security interests.

So Australia is morally bankrupt, yet spouts its "rule of law" mantra at every opportunity!
New Zealanders seem capable of making up their own mind on who to follow and where.

For a whole lot of pragmatic reasons we recognize a number of dictatorships, repressive regimes, and downright crooks.
China just happens to be one of the biggest and most threatening.

That's another irrelevance. We are talking about the recognition of a sovereign nation irrespective of its politics.
Australia abides by international conventions in accepting the boundaries of nation states. No other pragmatic reasons come into it.

 

[finicky]

@rederob a few here have asked about your relationship with China yet you have never responded to that I believe. Why not be transparent, unlike your beloved CCP, and disclose that. We're a free country, or what passes for it. I'll award you the benefit of any doubt if you say that you have no ties direct or indirect with China. Why do you extol it so much? What's going on with you? What's in it for you?

 

[moXJO]

Employees pay taxes, similar to Aussie rate except that once again, you get the max rate from around 50k USD a year from memory which is a bloody lot of money in China when you pay $2 for your lunch...
But yes myriads of while collars in IT and manufacturing industry pay tax...I doubt it is 2%?
Figures from memory and pre covid

Why only 2% of Chinese pay any income tax

The government wants to raise that to 15%

www.economist.com

The finance ministry estimates that 187m people ought to be paying income tax. Yet a former finance official reckons that in 2015 only 28m people—just 2% of the population—did so. In theory, the income-tax reform on which the authorities are embarking, which the People’s Daily, the Communist Party’s main mouthpiece, is calling the most significant in the country’s history, is about narrowing the tax base, not widening it. The threshold at which tax becomes payable was raised from 3,500 yuan ($503) to 5,000 yuan a month on October 1st. The finance ministry says the number of people liable for income tax should fall to 64m as a result. But it also seems determined to make those who owe tax actually pay it—a change that could have dramatic implications for politics.

I keep hearing this 2% from multiple sources. I've heard culturally that if taxes go above a certain point then the people think the dynasty/government is coming to an end. No idea if that's true.
But apparently a lot of tax money was coming from urban land. But everyone thinks the 70 year leases won't be enforced by government. And this may cause further problems.

I don't really know enough about it.

 

[rederob]

Ha f'g ha. A name is not the thing named.
Liars are expert in applying false and misleading names to things. You really slipped up with that one.

How about you show how the Parties are not "democratic" instead of making up what you want to believe.
China has a communist regime, but actively involves its citizens via secret ballot in electing its local representatives.
Chinese citizens by and large see themselves involved in a democratic process to determine who ultimately governs them.
Just as Australians don't get to choose who will be the PM (it's a Party decision), the Chinese accept that their representatives will choose their national leader. Unlike America, you also don't have to be a multimillionaire to run for Office.

 

[finicky]

Chinese citizens by and large see themselves involved in a democratic process

How about the Hong Kong Chinese?
Do the Tibetans feel they're represented? The Uyghurs, the Christians, the Falun Gong?

 

[rederob]

@rederob a few here have asked about your relationship with China yet you have never respinded to that I believe. Why not be transparent, unlike your beloved CCP, and disclose that. We're a free country, or what passes for it. I'll award you the benefit of any doubt if you say that you have no ties direct or indirect with China. Why do you extol it so much? What's going on with you? What's in it for you?

Neither you nor @mullokintyre seem able to address the points I make in response to comments demonstrating ignorance of China from some here.
For the record I have absolutely no association with China, and those here who think otherwise just make themselves look incapable of sustaining their credibility.

 

[finicky]

Thanks for your response. "No association", so no business connection or anything at all.

 

[qldfrog]

Why only 2% of Chinese pay any income tax

The government wants to raise that to 15%

www.economist.com

The finance ministry estimates that 187m people ought to be paying income tax. Yet a former finance official reckons that in 2015 only 28m people—just 2% of the population—did so. In theory, the income-tax reform on which the authorities are embarking, which the People’s Daily, the Communist Party’s main mouthpiece, is calling the most significant in the country’s history, is about narrowing the tax base, not widening it. The threshold at which tax becomes payable was raised from 3,500 yuan ($503) to 5,000 yuan a month on October 1st. The finance ministry says the number of people liable for income tax should fall to 64m as a result. But it also seems determined to make those who owe tax actually pay it—a change that could have dramatic implications for politics.

I keep hearing this 2% from multiple sources. I've heard culturally that if taxes go above a certain point then the people think the dynasty/government is coming to an end. No idea if that's true.
But apparently a lot of tax money was coming from urban land. But everyone thinks the 70 year leases won't be enforced by government. And this may cause further problems.

I don't really know enough about it.

I was under the belief most of our employees were paying taxes..but maybe because we were trying to play within the rules

 

[qldfrog]

I was under the belief most of our employees were paying taxes..but maybe because we were trying to play within the rules

Or because we were in the Guangdong area

 

[mullokintyre]

edit: FYI every point you raised in relation to a democratic process occurs in Chinese politics. In fact four of the nine Parties include "democratic" in their names:
View attachment 154292
You might need to rethink how you define "democracy".

Nah mate, I along with most of the real democracies, am quite happy with the current deffiniton.
Only a complete fool would think that putting the word Democratic into a bodies name then makes it a democracy.
Just keep digging.
Mick

 

[moXJO]

I was under the belief most of our employees were paying taxes..but maybe because we were trying to play within the rules

Companies cooking the books?

 

[qldfrog]

Companies cooking the books?

Not sure...

 

[qldfrog]

Nah mate, I along with most of the real democracies, am quite happy with the current deffiniton.
Only a complete fool would think that putting the word Democratic into a bodies name then makes it a democracy.
Just keep digging.
Mick

DDR Deutche Democratik Republik or more recently RDC: Republique Democratique du Congo..
Must be heaven on Earth ?

 

[farmerge]

DDR Deutche Democratik Republik or more recently RDC: Republique Democratique du Congo..
Must be heaven on Earth ?

Like most things that come out of Africa, dubious.

 

[Sean K]

Zero basis for that comment.
China has 5 year plans for its progress, and these are set within longer term goals.
The common western notion is that these plans are dictated from the top, but nothing could be further from the truth. The process for China's 14th Five-Year Plan (2021-2025) was relatively democratic and remains iterative. For example the Party sought suggestions online in August 2020 and received over one million comments to better reflect its direction. Name a democracy that uses such a process!

This makes no sense in the context of how china works.

These comments reflect a sheer ignorance of how China's BRI assists the developing world.
This link explains the BRI and puts to bed western media lies and misinformation that you have hooked yourself on.
We should be asking why the developing world continues to seek assistance from China for infrastructure projects or, perhaps, become be proactive ourselves.

Adding to the above, you appear to know very little about what goes on in the South China Sea. Taiwan, for example, has a military presence on the Spratly's largest island.
I don't see Australia calling out the UK or USA on Diego Garcia where the inhabitants were forcibly removed to develop a military base. We seem to play the rule of law card only when it suits us.

China has been playing the long game very well. Been very patient. But under Xi it's more than obvious they are now rushing to develop enough military capability to attack Taiwan and beat the US in a war in East Asia. If you can't see that, you're way too emotionally involved in the PRC/CCP for some reason.

The extent of the military build up in such a short time has led to other countries to believe China is preparing to use hard power to influence the region. It's driven Japan to change from having a purely defensive mindset with just 1% of GDP on defence to raise it to 2% and will be the third largest defence spender in a very short time. China will now have numerous countries surrounding it in an alliance to prevent them from projecting force. They could have waited longer using soft power to develop confidence with their neighbours that they were not planning to be aggressive. They said they would NOT militarise the Spratly Islands, but lied. They now have military installations in contested waters that the UN determined was NOT China's under UNCLOS. They are there against international law.

The BRI incorporates debt trap diplomacy, it's clearly part of the plan. It's already been implemented in many of the countries mentioned and more. They will own Venezuela soon.

Diego Garcia is part of the British Indian Ocean Territory. Prior to the British the Portuguese and French owned it.

It's more than obvious what is about to occur in East Asia and Taiwan. China are developing enough military capability to surround the island and prevent interdiction from the US and it's allies while they launch air, sea and amphibious assaults on the island. China will attack once they have sufficient amphibious capability to land enough troops on the ground to hold territory and hold off any counter attacks by an international coalition that will include the QUAD and NATO. They will have started WW3.

 

[qldfrog]

China has been playing the long game very well. Been very patient. But under Xi it's more than obvious they are now rushing to develop enough military capability to attack Taiwan and beat the US in a war in East Asia. If you can't see that, you're way too emotionally involved in the PRC/CCP for some reason.

The extent of the military build up in such a short time has led to other countries to believe China is preparing to use hard power to influence the region. It's driven Japan to change from having a purely defensive mindset with just 1% of GDP on defence to raise it to 2% and will be the third largest defence spender in a very short time. China will now have numerous countries surrounding it in an alliance to prevent them from projecting force. They could have waited longer using soft power to develop confidence with their neighbours that they were not planning to be aggressive. They said they would NOT militarise the Spratly Islands, but lied. They now have military installations in contested waters that the UN determined was NOT China's under UNCLOS. They are their against international law.

The BRI incorporates debt trap diplomacy, it's clearly part of the plan. It's already been implemented in many of the countries mentioned and more. They will own Venezuela soon.

Diego Garcia is part of the British Indian Ocean Territory. Prior to the British the Portuguese and French owned it.

It's more than obvious what is about to occur in East Asia and Taiwan. China are developing enough military capability to surround the island and prevent interdiction from the US and it's allies while they launch air, sea and amphibious assaults on the island. China will attack once they have sufficient amphibious capability to land enough troops on the ground to hold territory and hold off any counter attacks by an international coalition that will include the QUAD and NATO. They will have started WW3.

WWIV..WWIII is currently under way with hot war in Ukraine and cold war on the world stage

 

[Sean K]

WWIV..WWIII is currently under way with hot war in Ukraine and cold war on the world stage

It might all just turn out to be WW3, similar to how WW2 rolled. That was Sino-Japan, then Europe, then Japan attacking the US. I thought MAD would prevent something like this happening again. Let's hope so.

 

[rcw1]

Good morning
Reported this morning (14/03/22):
China will resume issuing a range of visas to foreigners beginning March 15, lifting sweeping restrictions in force since the outbreak of the Covid pandemic.

In addition to new travel documents being reviewed and approved, visas issued before March 28, 2020 that are still valid will once again allow entry to China, said the embassy notice, translated by AFP from Chinese.

Have a very nice day, today.

Kind regards
rcw1