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China on our doorstep

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JohnDe said:
It wouldn't take long to set up and produce fuel from any number of our resources.

How much fuel did the Ukraine have before Russia invaded?

Have a look at the world map, what sort of military resources would China require to monitor all the oceans for enemy cargo ships, and then be able to send an attack force while defending their assets?

War is not as simple as some here believe it to be.

Australia may have only 2 weeks' worth of fuel, but that is for private use.

England, during the war, struggled with domestic fuel supplies. They managed.
Click to expand...
Have you seen the size of England compared to Australia and the population density, have you seen how close the U.S was to the U.K?
I'm not trying to criticise, but really down here if there is a global conflict with China and Russia, I think it will be quite exciting for us.

Moving troops from one side of England to the other, is like moving troops from Sydney to Parkes, Sydney to the West Coast is 5 days and 4,000km for every transport vehicle.
War isn't simple, logistics and practicality is.
Ukraine is bordered by friendly countries, Australia is bordered by sea, minor difference is, shipping in fuel, rather than trucking it in.
But I do like your positive outlook, it is refreshing.
The other problem is of course, all our major fabrication work is done overseas, so the alternative fuel processing facility will be made where and with what? All our limited manufacturing will be diverted to military production, as happened in WW2 when we actually had some manufacturing.
www.keymilitary.com

The Waste that Helped Win the War

MILITARIA WARTIME SCRAP DRIVESFrom July 1940, the British people...
www.keymilitary.com www.keymilitary.com
As the German U-boat cordon around the nation began to bite, the British government initiated a campaign to make the most out of old materials. In a July 1940 broadcast, the first wartime Minister of Supply, Labour MP Herbert Morrison, implored: “I ask people to start now and save their paper, bones and scrap metal. In that way, we shall build up a great reserve of raw materials ready to be transformed into war materials.”
 
sptrawler said:
Have you seen the size of England compared to Australia and the population density, have you seen how close the U.S was to the U.K?
I'm not trying to criticise, but really down here if there is a global conflict with China and Russia, I think it will be quite exciting for us.

Moving troops from one side of England to the other, is like moving troops from Sydney to Parkes, Sydney to the West Coast is 5 days and 4,000km for every transport vehicle.
War isn't simple, logistics and practicality is.
Ukraine is bordered by friendly countries, Australia is bordered by sea, minor difference is, shipping in fuel, rather than trucking it in.
But I do like your positive outlook, it is refreshing.
The other problem is of course, all our major fabrication work is done overseas, so the alternative fuel processing facility will be made where and with what? All our limited manufacturing will be diverted to military production, as happened in WW2 when we actually had some manufacturing.
www.keymilitary.com

The Waste that Helped Win the War

MILITARIA WARTIME SCRAP DRIVESFrom July 1940, the British people...
www.keymilitary.com www.keymilitary.com
As the German U-boat cordon around the nation began to bite, the British government initiated a campaign to make the most out of old materials. In a July 1940 broadcast, the first wartime Minister of Supply, Labour MP Herbert Morrison, implored: “I ask people to start now and save their paper, bones and scrap metal. In that way, we shall build up a great reserve of raw materials ready to be transformed into war materials.”
Click to expand...

Just in case you didn't read my post correctly -

It wouldn't take long to set up and produce fuel from any number of our resources.

How much fuel did the Ukraine have before Russia invaded?

Have a look at the world map, what sort of military resources would China require to monitor all the oceans for enemy cargo ships, and then be able to send an attack force while defending their assets?

War is not as simple as some here believe it to be.

Australia may have only 2 weeks' worth of fuel, but that is for private use.

England, during the war, struggled with domestic fuel supplies. They managed.​

You are too pessimistic to be able to see solutions, thankfully you are not one of our generals or advisers.
 
JohnDe said:
Just in case you didn't read my post correctly -

It wouldn't take long to set up and produce fuel from any number of our resources.​
​
How much fuel did the Ukraine have before Russia invaded?​
​
Have a look at the world map, what sort of military resources would China require to monitor all the oceans for enemy cargo ships, and then be able to send an attack force while defending their assets?​
​
War is not as simple as some here believe it to be.​
​
Australia may have only 2 weeks' worth of fuel, but that is for private use.​
​
England, during the war, struggled with domestic fuel supplies. They managed.​

You are too pessimistic to be able to see solutions, thankfully you are not one of our generals or advisers.
Click to expand...
You call me pessimistic, I call it realistic, but I do love your optimism.
The only thing I'm optimistic about, is that war wont break out, I dont think it will.
 
Sean K said:
I'll put a kangaroo on that. What's the time frame though? Within 100 years?
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Like I said in an earlier post a war will break out at sometime, the recent post I was meaning not over Taiwan in the near future.
Pelosi or whatever her name is, there would have been a reason for her visit and I dont think it would have been to tell them the U.S has their backs.
More likely an option to own the chip manufacturing facilities, when they are relocated to the U.S.
 
Dona Ferentes said:
More backyard stuff .... from another side of the fence

www.atlanticcouncil.org

Full throttle in neutral: China’s new security architecture for the Middle East

This report addresses two widely held beliefs about the nature of China’s engagement in the Middle East and North Africa (MENA) that ought to be revisited
www.atlanticcouncil.org www.atlanticcouncil.org
Click to expand...

No mention of France and the UK in that which is interesting. They have considerable historical and current interests there and in conjunction with the US need a coordinated joint plan.
 
sptrawler said:
You call me pessimistic, I call it realistic, but I do love your optimism.
The only thing I'm optimistic about, is that war wont break out, I dont think it will.
Click to expand...

Of course it won’t, because China knows that war is not simple and history is not on their side when western allies strengthen their bonds.
 
Sean K said:
If we're talking major conflict here, we only have to stop oil, gas and coal delivery. If we were really going to go all in and take significant pain if it was that serious - iron ore as well. Yes, we'd go broke, but it's a card to be played if it was that serious. China probably has other avenues for these resources, but the US controls the Pacific and India/EU controls the Indian Ocean. No, not sustainable, but, we have the leavers.
Click to expand...
coal: while China is our biggest export destination, their own production is massive and we are really just a few % of their own resources,
a few figures:
"Coal accounted for 56 percent of China's total primary energy consumption. Imported coal accounts for less than 10 percent of the country's total consumption, but it's an increasingly important supplement." so 90% self reliant
worse:
"China's energy self-sufficiency rate has been on a steady growth track in recent years, with the country's total energy production rising to 4.18 billion metric tons of standard coal last year, up 2.5 percent year-on-year, according to the China Offshore Energy Report released by the CNOOC Energy Economics Institute, a.."
Does not that says it all: getting ready....?
Where from:"
China's imported coal mainly comes from Indonesia, accounting for 58.3 percent of total imports, followed by Russia at 23.3 percent and Mongolia at 10 percent, data from industry information provider Lange showed",,
yeap we are in "the scaps there at the bottom"
as for oil gas, etc Russia has plenty to give them, with a smile and a revenge

Russia plus China has all what they need except a market for the junkets we buy, and if we come that far into a conflict, exporting farting bags and gadgets/TV/Tesla or EV batteries will be the last of China problem..even if it could be our first!
What make us think that India would side with the west? Should not India side with its interests first?
As for Europe..what Europe?
So yes we'd go broke and the sanctions would have the same effect as they did on Russia:
The ruble is top, and american banks are folding as to the EU economy ROL
1678794564448.png
So looking at these not happy facts, who should be afraid and maybe adopt a "RealPolitik".
Hope the few facts above will remain in your mind when discussing China
 
Sean K said:
No mention of France and the UK in that which is interesting. They have considerable historical and current interests there and in conjunction with the US need a coordinated joint plan.
Click to expand...
Ukraine sorted that, and that was the US plan from the start wasn't it? Wipe out any potential EU resurgence..
 
hopefully, we will avoid that:
while the US has pushed for war in Ukraine for more than 10y, I am not aware of them pushing one against China yet;
On the other side, well China has pushed for a HK style takeover for a while; their strawmen in Taiwan have still a serious base in various election;
It would be easier for them to play a ukrainian style push from within; Just wait for the next economic crash, may not have to wait long and see if China or the US will be able to help Taipei getting food on the table and work in the factories....And the deal is done
Would you die for Taiwan?Would you be ready to see your children grandchildren die for the island?
(I assume here you have decent family relations ;-)
Interesting chat, have all a great night
 
JohnDe said:
It wouldn't take long to set up and produce fuel from any number of our resources.
Click to expand...
Have you seen what's involved with such a project?

Even the likes of China take a few years to build such facilities from scratch.

Ukraine doesn't really count given the extent of Western support they're receiving one way or another. They're not producing fuel from newly built facilities, just bringing it in.

Bearing in mind the big problem with building fuel supplies is that you need fuel to run construction machinery. Without that, it all takes longer and requires more labour. :2twocents
 
JohnDe said:
We would find a way, we would make do, we would continue on as we have through every major epidemic, war, and natural disaster.
Click to expand...
There are ways to make do and improvise sure.

But if the pandemic ought to have taught us anything, it's that the improvisation is far too slow in practice to stop a crash in the meantime.

Life carries on but not without one almighty setback in practice. Life doesn't end but life as you know it tends to disappear. :2twocents
 
qldfrog said:
hopefully, we will avoid that:
while the US has pushed for war in Ukraine for more than 10y, I am not aware of them pushing one against China yet;
On the other side, well China has pushed for a HK style takeover for a while; their strawmen in Taiwan have still a serious base in various election;
It would be easier for them to play a ukrainian style push from within; Just wait for the next economic crash, may not have to wait long and see if China or the US will be able to help Taipei getting food on the table and work in the factories....And the deal is done
Would you die for Taiwan?Would you be ready to see your children grandchildren die for the island?
(I assume here you have decent family relations ;-)
Interesting chat, have all a great night
Click to expand...
Good evening Mr Frog. As one whose name was put into the hat for the Vietnam conflict (fortunately must have fallen out through a hole in the bottom) and a conflict I certainly didn't agree with. I would not want to see my grand kids being used as pawns in a China conflict.
I have been a great believer in that if the buraucrats and government reps are so desperate to help then bloody well go yourselves. But I guess their response would "we are far to important to be physically invloved"
 
farmerge said:
I have been a great believer in that if the buraucrats and government reps are so desperate to help then bloody well go yourselves. But I guess their response would "we are far to important to be physically invloved"
Click to expand...
It feeds the rich while it buries the poor.

That's actually just a song lyric but hits the nail on the head in my view. That's exactly what it does.

Trouble is, humans keep going down this path. Peace is achieved but in due course we enable an enemy. From there it's only a matter of time until conflict erupts. :2twocents
 
Smurf1976 said:
Have you seen what's involved with such a project?

Even the likes of China take a few years to build such facilities from scratch.

Ukraine doesn't really count given the extent of Western support they're receiving one way or another. They're not producing fuel from newly built facilities, just bringing it in.

Bearing in mind the big problem with building fuel supplies is that you need fuel to run construction machinery. Without that, it all takes longer and requires more labour. :2twocents
Click to expand...
And another huge disadvantage the west has, especially here, is not only the loss of infrastructure and factories but maybe foremost the absence of skills: the engineers and scientists required
I somewhat doubt we will have Indians and Chinese ! graduates rushing in a case of conflict, nor do I think we can transform our cohort of social studies,PS, environmental engineers, media influencers and barista experts into the designers and operators of new refineries,steel mills ,furnaces and factories etc.we do have still a few electrical and civil engineers thanks to mining,but anything above building roads and bridges/ buildings will be mission impossible, not forgetting how long it will take to block the green red tapes and council state interferences
 
qldfrog said:
And another huge disadvantage the west has, especially here, is not only the loss of infrastructure and factories but maybe foremost the absence of skills: the engineers and scientists required
I somewhat doubt we will have Indians and Chinese ! graduates rushing in a case of conflict, nor do I think we can transform our cohort of social studies,PS, environmental engineers, media influencers and barista experts into the designers and operators of new refineries,steel mills ,furnaces and factories etc.we do have still a few electrical and civil engineers thanks to mining,but anything above building roads and bridges/ buildings will be mission impossible, not forgetting how long it will take to block the green red tapes and council state interferences
Click to expand...


 

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