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yes , especially that , China has a massive navy , but to us they just look like container vessels ( carrying everything we need , but are too lazy to make locally )
China a Failed State and a Rogue State to the rest of the World
Sdajii
Sdaji
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Indian propaganda at it's best. Yelling lies (or at best... exaggerations) and hoping other more capable people are able to do their dirty work to make India Great.
You make such grand accusations of anyone with contrarian views as Nazis - let's see how you're like in real life. Let's see if you talk the big talk and treat these "Nazis" as you claim the way Nazis are treated in history. You can try.
Let's put India in the spotlight:
- Have no principles morally on the world stage. They will wh*re themselves to any country that will take them in or give them resources. As seen with the US. As seen with Russia. And their little man Modi flying everywhere to talk about the greatness of India and how every country should open their borders to Indian immigration. I thought India was such a great country why ever leave??
- Trying to spread their influence and agenda in every corner of the world. One of the most ultra-nationalistic people who do not assimilate and will not waive their loyalty to India in Australia.
- Have one of the biggest propaganda and disinformation media networks
- R*pe capital in the world
- Even the high-caste Brahmin treated as royalty don't want to ever return. And are indeed almost 100% of the immigration.
- Discriminatory, humiliating caste system.
- Absolutely 0 women's rights. Women cannot go out at night alone without being r*ped.
- Average IQ 85
- Currently weakest physically according to global martial arts competitions and the Olympics. 0/0/0 medals in Olympic games despite having 1.4 billion people
- Intolerance to Muslims and other religions
- Highly racist towards non-Indians in and out of their own country. Well documented on youtube.
- Theft, scams are so commonplace higher than all other countries. Also shows how much they despise other nations since they usually scam elderly vulnerable Australian grandmas and the such
- Widely regarded as giving no value to the world, not even cheap labor since it is often of poor quality and service.
Allying with India over China is a huge mistake. Treating them as anything other than the biggest threat in this global chess game is a huge mistake. They must be isolated from the rest of the world. If they're so great they can make India great from within and leave the rest of the world alone.
You may not be bright enough to realise this, but it is very obvious that you are a dishonest Chinese propagandist when you come into a discussion about China and your best effort to defend it is an off topic attack on another country, India, deapite no one in the thread being apparently Indian and perhaps no one in the discussion being Indian at all, and certainly no one else raised the topic.
While India certainly has its problems, It's no coincidence that most of your criticisms of India there are actually issues China has far worse than India does (along with a few factual criticisms of India mixed in).
The thing is, no one would randomly launch into a ln attack in India in this thread unless they were dishonesty and aggressively working to help China. As with a lot of Chinese propaganda, it is so blatantly obvious that to most half intelligent people, it actually makes China look bad.
Whether it's spy balloons flying over the USA and Canada and China saying they know it's not one of theirs then later claiming it was not a spy balloon then saying it was just an innocent spy balloon without any nefarious intent (the CCP is *really* bad at lying, largely because the West has so far been too stupid to do much about it), or whether they're lying about the Wuhan virus, saying they have confirmed it does not spread human to human while buying up global medical supplies en masse and encouraging Chinese people to travel internationally while shutting down domestic travel and it was later found in internal documents at the time that the Chinese government knew it was spreading rapidly within China for weeks while they did their best to control it within their own borders and export it to the world and buy up those supplies... or any of the countless other examples I could give, the CCP is incredibly prolific at lying and as with most things coming out of China the quality is terrible but the rest of the world is stupid enough to gobble up a lot of it anyway.
You accuse India of being racist while Chinese school children are literally taught to hate foreigners by their schools. I've been to India, am very much not Indian, and was constantly made to feel welcome (though absolutely, if I'd been a woman it would have been as dangerous as you say, though still safer than travelling alone through China).
What happened in Tiananmen Square in June 1989 by the way? Why did those tanks run over so many innocent students and why does the Chinese government work so hard to censor any mention of it and severely punish anyone who makes any mention of it?
Why are Chinese people so desperate to get out of China?
Why do Chinese people hate buying Chinese food and much prefer imported food?
Oh, and this video was literally produced by the Chinese government as propaganda to show how amazing its train system is. I don't know if it's more funny that the physics don't make sense or that there are so many signs so blatantly showing it's fake, or that they actually put a dragon in the water. This was literally produced as propaganda by the CCP!
...and on the topic of social media, why does the Chinese government accuse the USA of being racist for proposing the banning of Chinese psyops like TikTok, when China itself won't allow Chinese people access to foreign social media, or, TikTok itself! Could you get any more blatantly hypocritical?
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From the other side of the story:
militarywatchmagazine.com
So in short, argument is about " is Parcel island China territory or not ?"
So no North Korea UN mission or whatever other pretext...
Which brings us back to my argument:
Should Australia get involved in 2025 in fighting China expansionist move on empty seas when not only its relative wealth, but even it basic needs for survival are so entangled with China.
Beggars can't be chosers.
And would the billions wasted on obsolete before delivery subs and fighters not be better spent on getting out of this economic addiction...
For example on a hot subject:
when not choosing: made in China solar panels, wind farms and battery storage which do further that dependency AND lock it for the next century with a 15y replacement cycle....
Vision, knowledge and common sense ....
Australian P-8 Surveillance and Missile Aircraft Enters Chinese Airspace: J-16 Fighters Make Close Intercept
On February 13 the Chinese Foreign Ministry protested the deployment of an Australian P-8A maritime patrol aircraft, which“deliberately intruded into the airspace of
militarywatchmagazine.com
So no North Korea UN mission or whatever other pretext...
Which brings us back to my argument:
Should Australia get involved in 2025 in fighting China expansionist move on empty seas when not only its relative wealth, but even it basic needs for survival are so entangled with China.
Beggars can't be chosers.
And would the billions wasted on obsolete before delivery subs and fighters not be better spent on getting out of this economic addiction...
For example on a hot subject:
when not choosing: made in China solar panels, wind farms and battery storage which do further that dependency AND lock it for the next century with a 15y replacement cycle....
Vision, knowledge and common sense ....
Dona Ferentes
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funny thing, when recalled home, double agents, or useful idiots, expect to be sitting on the podium with their paymasters, but generally end up in a re-education camp, or worse.
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True:
by nature, they can not be trusted whatever the sides.
But they get immediate benefits and can pretend to believe.
The problem with thread like this one is the near obsessive views of some to only see one side, and generally not look in their own dark mirror.
Hang on to your seats:
Probably naively due to age , i saw the pre Berlin wall collapse world quite black and white:
Evil side: red guards, USSR , KGB,khmer rouges facing the good Western side..
Of ctiurse, Pinochet, Vietnam, Bokassa showing that the CIA and European services were not angels...
But the evil/good side still mostly made sense..
Forward to 2025:
Was an Ukrainian, even BEFORE Putin invasion, having more freedom than a Chinese? Sure not, and as Zelinsky is losing control, much worse now with a full dictatorship in place.
Is the average guy in the street in Sydney or China SZ freedom much different?
West Joe vs Chinese or Russian guy :
Travel restrictions, mandatory jabs, ongoing surveillance, arguably i know no real/very limited choice of representatives, high propaganda feed, low education in critical analysis , history, geopolitics,petty day to day policing (smoking, speed limits, jay walking , littering..you name it and restricted access to law for the commoners, high taxation.
The western commoner has been pushed back to the subservient masses, with the ruling elite taking control.
Not only mega rich capitalistic wolves over the sheep a la Karl Marx but politicians, corrupt representatives..
Here in Australia not so much yet, just a road for a PM or a winery tour in limousine for a mp, or look at the cosy deals in Noosa or Sunshine coast shires for actual next door examples i see everyday.
But the royalty of the past in the West are being born again;
The seized chateaux of the revolution now inhabited by a new mostly unelected clique, soon generational : in France, the swamp in the US and Washington DC, all the EU administrative Mafia....
They literally live like kings,all expenses paid by the slaves..sorry taxpayers
Sharks frenzy feeding on the remains of our democracies,smashing middle class and putting the masses back to the russian style serfdom, often under the disguise of socialism or ecology.. the irony.
So as per JD Vance speech to the EU caste, let's look at ourselves first before throwing stones.
Once done, i would feel better with these threads.
Currently, it is a bit hypocritical imho and too easy to turn into a racist slant, even if we (nearly) all agree , i do, on some of the evils of the CCP.
Note
I am only involved in this thread as i recently live nearly 3y on mainland China, met some great people there, am aware of the limitations and believe i know more about eastern cities China than a few random youtubers
Sean K
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I'm not sure if the Tasman Sea or the Coral Sea are live fire zones for the PLA Navy.
It seems Penny Wong's great work in normalising things with China is paying dividends.
As a starting point, the Chinese naval task group did nothing wrong, in the legal sense, when it may have conducted a live-firing drill on Friday about 640 kilometres east of Eden, a port town on the NSW South Coast.
The flotilla, which has been tracked for more than a week off the east coast, was in international waters and out of Australia’s exclusive economic zone. Australian authorities and airlines were warned via an aviation radio broadcast frequency that the ships were going to perform a live-firing drill, which necessitated an exclusion zone 45,000 feet high and 18 kilometres across for aircraft to avoid.
Senior Australian defence chiefs described the Chinese actions as disruptive, rather than provocative.
This doesn’t make it right. When Australian warships conduct live-firing drills, they give 24 to 48 hours’ notice, allowing airlines to plan diversions rather than scramble literally on the fly as happened on Friday.
It seems Penny Wong's great work in normalising things with China is paying dividends.
As a starting point, the Chinese naval task group did nothing wrong, in the legal sense, when it may have conducted a live-firing drill on Friday about 640 kilometres east of Eden, a port town on the NSW South Coast.
The flotilla, which has been tracked for more than a week off the east coast, was in international waters and out of Australia’s exclusive economic zone. Australian authorities and airlines were warned via an aviation radio broadcast frequency that the ships were going to perform a live-firing drill, which necessitated an exclusion zone 45,000 feet high and 18 kilometres across for aircraft to avoid.
Senior Australian defence chiefs described the Chinese actions as disruptive, rather than provocative.
This doesn’t make it right. When Australian warships conduct live-firing drills, they give 24 to 48 hours’ notice, allowing airlines to plan diversions rather than scramble literally on the fly as happened on Friday.
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Agree
This is a planned provocation, light touch but nevertheless imho significant....
A move in a game which we should have no fun playing but remember
who was flying near Prospect or whatever island a week ago off China
I assume this is the CCP tit for tat answer i am afraid
The government should take this more seriously but the ALP can be bought so easily if only on the illusion China is communist and so a brother in arms.....
Sdajii
Sdaji
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I think several decades ago the West vs USSR or Khmer Rouge view was valid. I mean, heck, if you're bringing up the Khmer Rouge let's not forget that they literally killed anyone they suspected of being against the government, being educated or even too smart, killing about a quarter of their own population and totally warping the lives of those who remained. In terms of evil, that regime is a contender for worst the world has ever seen - it makes the Nazis look lovely and reasonable. Incidentally, for some reason (well, I know the reason but you're not allowed to talk about it), Nazism is the Western poster child of evil despite far worse examples existing. Absolutely, Nazism is terrible, evil, etc etc, but there's this bizarre perception in the West that it's head and shoulders more evil than anything else we've ever seen. Interestingly, here in Asia, Nazism is as overlooked or even seen as sort of cool, in the same way that Genghis Khan or Mohammed or other evil, bloodthirsty conquerors are seen by some as admirable. At the time of the Khmer Rouge, the West was absolutely hands down the best part of the world.
Is someone in Sydney really much better off than someone in China? Are you freaking kidding me??? I can legally walk down the street doing all sorts of things in Sydney which would literally get a Chinese person disappeared.
The West is going down an absolutely terrible, hideous, terrifying path. Every time I visit Australia (usually once or twice per year) my heart breaks seeing what it has become, and because I am not there most of the time, I see the changes in tangible increments rather than a 'frog in a boiling pot' way most Australians are experiencing it. I also compare it to the countries in Asia I spend most of my time in and I constantly observe how things are going here. Most Australians don't realise it at all and even most of those who do don't realise how incredibly bad it is, but China is so much further ahead down that path. People out here are absolutely desperate to flee their countries and end up in a place like Australia, and while I am the first to acknowledge how hideous Australia is becoming compared to where it was (it boggles me how content all those frogs are in the simmer and how oblivious they are to the upcoming rolling boil), I fully understand why they want to get out of their fire and into the Australian frypan - in their shoes I absolutely would want to do the same.
When I was a bit more new to Asia, I was puzzled at some things, like when people became terrified and ran, fearing for their lives when I asked things like "What's the local government like here?" (for my own safety I will not name any countries in this post). If someone from the local government heard them respond, they may literally be disappeared, and their fear is rational, not paranoia. The West is becoming really bad, sure. Australians should be absolutely alarmed and going wild in opposition (they won't, and it's going to get *really* bad), but to suggest it's comparable today to China today shows you aren't aware of how bad China is.
Australia isn't committing genocide. Australia doesn't 'Peng Shuai' people. Australia doesn't 'Jack Ma' people. Australia doesn't ban health organisations. A church can't operate in China unless the person running it works for the government. The Australian government doesn't kill innocent people and sell their organs on the international market. As bad as Australia is, there's no comparison (yet).
By no means do I want to downplay how bad things in Australia are getting - it's still a good place to live but it's heading in a terrible direction. I think if people could go spend a few months in the 1970s-1990s then come back to 2025 for a comparison, they'd be horrified, but it's amazing how short typical memories are. If you consider the trend, it's horrifying.
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@Sdajii As you are an outsider looking in this is a frightening scenario.
Sure we live in one of the best countries in the world, but change is upon us in one form or another.
We now have the Chinese Navy with 3 war ships patrolling up or down the East coast, albeit in international waters, firing live ammunition and causing commercial airlines to divert.
Is this a case of a big stick being waved at us, with more to come.
Sure we live in one of the best countries in the world, but change is upon us in one form or another.
We now have the Chinese Navy with 3 war ships patrolling up or down the East coast, albeit in international waters, firing live ammunition and causing commercial airlines to divert.
Is this a case of a big stick being waved at us, with more to come.
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They might be technically legal in international waters and so on but that's rather close to Australia in practice.
It's only about the same distance as Hobart is from Melbourne or Sydney is from the Gold Coast. It's a lot closer to Australia than it is to China that's for sure.
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I get you and sure, even literally staying alive if you oppose Xi openly, just living as any non ethnic Han, darker skin colour,etc us a nightmare much much worse than Australia can throw at us,my feeling is that the people suffering are a very small percentage of the 1.5 billions Chinese...and for a Mr Han in the street who is not a crook, is working, not a political or religious activist, life is not bad vs the Aussie match.
I also know China has changed since covid and my roughly 3y there, were before that.and change can come quickly.
Australia has been going down the drain at high speed since then.
I compare the better years of china vs the worst here so a bit unfair as change came fast.
I am also aware painfully of the situation in the EU and tend to project the situation there to our future in Australia..just because this is what happens..
I also acknowledge that China in Shenzhen, south east coast,HK, Beijing or Shanghai is not representative of the whole country but i had a pretty good knowledge as much as a westerner can have.
So maybe pushed/extrapolated a bit but for many of the native French locked in the french cities suburbs or Townsville elderly residents , they probably would be better off in their chinese equivalent
I also agree that the naval display should be taken more seriously that Albanese , sold to china, did.
This government paid 1.5billion to Ukraine against bad Putin but lick the feet of XI, while at the same time wasting billions and billions on outdated tech, enforcing economic dependence with RE targets and economic mismanagement...
Arrrrgg
Sdajii
Sdaji
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When were your three years in China? China is a big and varied place, so even at any given point in time you won't get a good idea of it just by looking at one or a few areas, and as with most countries, it can be difficult to get to know a country as a foreigner, especially without speaking the language. Even Australia, most Australians would have their minds blown if they explored Australia properly. Most Australians would have no idea what it's like to like in remote parts of WA, NT and Western QLD. Sure, in the case of Australia that's not where the majority live, but there are some realities of day to day life in some parts of Australia which most people would be amazed. I worked for a while in a remote part of WA, a lot of the indigenous came in routinely and often caused trouble, in one case one woman ran into the kitchen, grabbed a steak knife, ran out into the shop with it and stabbed her partner. The police weren't fussed about it, just another day out there. Another time the police called us letting us know there would be a car load of them coming in from the nearest aboriginal community about 150km away, they told us to ignore the fact that the car had no doors and wasn't registered (that much isn't too unusual out there) and to sell them as much alcohol as they wanted (which is highly illegal - there are strict limits on the amount of alcohol each person can buy per day in northern WA, and we also had our own policy to limit the amount sold per vehicle which was lower than the legal amount. Presumably the police were bribing them in order to keep the police (if most Australians ever set foot on an aboriginal community and saw how day to day life works there, they'd have their minds blown, many of them are horrendous beyond belief). Federal policies set by politicians in Canberra influenced by city folk in Melbourne and Sydney who have no concept of the reality of life in some areas of the country... it's quite crazy. Even state governments don't get it right - the politicians and citizens in Perth aren't too much different from those on the East Coast.
The point of that is, even the people actually running a country have no idea what's going on in their own country of a few tens of millions of people. China has well over a billion people so the issue is much more extreme, and add on top of that the internal isolation of the Chinese government system, plus the fact that they're not elected, they're just the wealthy ruling class, and foreigners are largely restricted to a very small part of China. Unlike Australia, it's not a minority of people living in the majority of the land, there are huge numbers of people right through China, which foreigners almost never see. In my travels around Asia I often have people look at me like an alien, completely astonished at what they're seeing, and it's not unusual for people to tell me they've never seen a white person before (and I can only understand it in places where I can understand the local language). I won't get into details for obvious reasons but in many cases it is outright illegal for foreigners to visit such areas, and certainly if you travel in some areas of China you'll have the local authorities move you along or potentially arrest you. If even the government and regular citizens don't really know what's going on, a typical foreigner has no hope. Having said that, in many countries I go to, the locals are astonished at how much of their countries I have seen, and often say that they don't know any fellow citizens who have seen so much. Partly this is because I take an interest in seeing as much as I can, and partly because in a lot of Asia, most people don't have the money or opportunity to see their country even if they want to.
In terms of differences in freedom, I could rave all day and night. I already gave some examples, but another is that if you're from one part of China, the reality for most people is that you're not allowed to go seek your fortune and get a job in another part. If you're from a poor farming area, that's where you stay, you're not allowed move. If you marry someone from a poorer area, you lose your rights and have to go live in the poor area, and your children will have lower travel and work rights. Members of the government can not marry the wrong people (if they wish to, they must give up their position in the government and their rights). Most people in China don't have it as good as those living in tier one cities.
Things like this aren't in the travel brochures, the tour guides don't talk about them, but they are the reality for Chinese people, and I'm barely scratching the surface.
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Reread my last post and you have the answer to your questions.
And i have brought a whole dining room to a standstill aka 400 persons just entering it in a non touristy are..for foreigner.got selfie with grandma as first white as well...
Not going to go in a bigger dxk battle as who did what in China, where i went to but was not supposed to, etc.
All your points are true
My point still stands that the end result is not as different as it was 40y ago and it start levelling
As you mentioned aboriginal communities, i had a fair go there decades ago, and tbh not bothering going there again as i do not want more hopelessness in my live now..but it is real, getting worse abd more numerous...
The paltry living for some there does match the Chinese working slaves:
Our own fed on nanny state free money, doo gooders schemes, drugs,alcohol and lawlessness;
In China the 12h day work 6 days a week or more for a pittance.
Are ours better?
Do i want to be in either of course not.
And as mentioned, i have seen the generational collapse of wealth, freedom and even basic needs: housing,safety, food, health in France .
I also just see it here delayed but coming harsh especially in the last decade with the same root causes:
immigration, WEF destruction of middle class and even lower elite, socialism poisoning minds, values and rerouting the effort reward as well as corruption and dictatorship getting established by a ruling class
As a result, i see the all Chinese is evil quite hypocritical
Covid was a good case to highlight, thousand died needlessly from mandated useless mRNA jabs, as for freedom....
So we should be aware of both thread:
Is China, Poutin the danger for me or my kids; or is it foremost the home grown danger lets call it wokism or communist world globalism..wef agenda in summary?
But we should build a spine with china
Bending over does not bring respect, nor being seen as a lackey to the US
Garpal Gumnut
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Sdajii
Sdaji
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Sorry, I reread it and still missed when you were in China. Maybe my eyes aren't what they once were.
Please not that not everything I'm saying is for you personally, it's partly to add to the general discussion in the thread.
I somewhat agree with you that China and Australia are heading down similar paths but one is further along, and one big difference is that China is building that path, and there are many differences, including one big one. Western people love to use Nazism as a reference of evil, and in every way, China is at least as bad as Germany in the 1930s - they're literally committing genocide, they have an even more extreme and unhealthy policy of extreme nationalism in a context of conquest and a right to take the planet, they say their ethnicity is the supreme race and though it is stated in varying degrees of bluntness (including at times being completely blunt), they wish to exterminate all other races so theirs can inherit the entire planet.
The big difference is that China is doing its own thing according to its own rules, while Australia is influenced by China for China's agendas. In ways it has become similar (such as accepting a totalitarian regime which removes their rights, and to see this as completely acceptable or not even happening at all), and in some ways to be very different, such as China openly operating as an ethnostate based on Han supremacy, while Australia is encouraged to destroy itself by importing 'refugees' from nasty areas, by people who know that doing so is the best way to destroy a country without active use of military. We have an insane situation where Australians (and the problem is even worse in many parts of Europe) think it is 'racist' to do anything other than bring in massive numbers of violent immigrants who hate Australia and will actively destroy it, and pour huge amounts of resources into them while Australians themselves are finding it harder and harder to make ends meet - the prosperous times Australia used to enjoy seem to be an old fictional story to most people, not even a distant memory. Australians have been brainwashed into believing that any "refugees" need love and support and acceptance, while in reality the countries they come from are hand picking the violent rejects of society who belong in prison and sending them to places like Germany, France, Sweden and Australia because it's a fraction of the cost of sending them to prison and it destroys a country they hate, and China is gleefully involved in making this happen. If any Australian, even an educated, hard-working person of good morals and character, wanted to go to China, they could never buy a house or land, never become a citizen, there is no way they could ever get welfare or vote (heck, even Chinese can't get that) or access the government services Chinese actually do have. Even most Chinese people themselves are forbidden to live or work in places like Shang Hai or Shen Zhen.
While Chinese actively embrace unbridled racism and Han supremacy, including direct encouragement from the government both in actions and explicit words, Australia calls it a hate crime to want to protect your own country even if you're fine with immigrants and do absolutely nothing at all racist or hateful. Many Australians would probably read this post and think I am racist, despite the fact that I have chosen to live in Asia for more than 10 years, largely in areas where it's unusual to see another white person. Most of the outspoken critics of the Chinese government absolutely love traditional Chinese culture. Taiwanese and Chinese are ethnically the same, but these people tend to love Taiwan and hate China - clearly race is not the issue.
That may seem a bit off topic, but the point is that the similarities largely come from China's propaganda and soft power (China has massive control over social media like Facebook, YouTube and heavy influence over Hollywood etc), but there are also huge differences, and the goals are very different - in China it is being used in an attempt to strengthen the country, in Australia to destroy it so China can take it. This was obvious to me as a school kid in the 1990s (and I landed myself in a lot of trouble for talking about it), but today it is so obvious that anyone who can't see it is either living under a rock or mesmerised by propaganda or a mixture of the two.
For things to get to this stage with most Australians still not seeing what's going on and the Australian system still actively facilitating its own destruction, yep, Australia is ultimately in severe trouble, but in the current day Australia is a far, far better place to live for typical Australians than China is for typical Chinese, with an absolute cheese and chalk situation when it comes to human rights.
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