CFU - Ceramic Fuel Cells

[zzaaxxss3401]

CFU is a real threat to base load power stations..solar is not

Clear enough??

I've just thought (when you mention "base load" power)... if the sun doesn't shine, solar doesn't produce anything. If you are "off grid" then you have to rely on huge (and very expensive) banks of batteries.

If you had a small solar panel to charge/recharge a battery (with an inverter to 240V) could you run the BlueGen "off grid" and simply have gas connected? Obviously, you wouldn't get the benefits of pumping back to the grid, but at least you could still watch telly when the power companies have switched off your local street (through their new smart meters) because there are too many plasma tvs and a/c units running.

I am a holder of CFU.

 

[frankblack]

I've just thought (when you mention "base load" power)... if the sun doesn't shine, solar doesn't produce anything. If you are "off grid" then you have to rely on huge (and very expensive) banks of batteries.

If you had a small solar panel to charge/recharge a battery (with an inverter to 240V) could you run the BlueGen "off grid" and simply have gas connected? Obviously, you wouldn't get the benefits of pumping back to the grid, but at least you could still watch telly when the power companies have switched off your local street (through their new smart meters) because there are too many plasma tvs and a/c units running.

I am a holder of CFU.

You could do it if you had the technical know how, but you would still need a bank of batteries to store the produced energy and to draw power from,
you cant get it from the BlueGen.

 

[Smurf1976]

I've just thought (when you mention "base load" power)... if the sun doesn't shine, solar doesn't produce anything. If you are "off grid" then you have to rely on huge (and very expensive) banks of batteries.

If you had a small solar panel to charge/recharge a battery (with an inverter to 240V) could you run the BlueGen "off grid" and simply have gas connected? Obviously, you wouldn't get the benefits of pumping back to the grid, but at least you could still watch telly when the power companies have switched off your local street (through their new smart meters) because there are too many plasma tvs and a/c units running.

I am a holder of CFU.

In a technical sense yes it could be done but:

1. Batteries are an expensive, polluting and relatively inefficient means of storing energy.

2. The BIG problem will be having enough peak capacity to meet your household peak demand which in most cases far exceeds the capability of the fuel cell and a small inverter combined.

That is actually one of the main reasons why we have grid electricity in the first place - not everyone will have their maximum load at the same time, thus meaning that generating capacity can be shared and the overall cost reduced.

If you look at the power stations alone, the upfront investment to supply just one house is around $30,000 and that's without distribution and transmission. But since not everyone's peak is at the same time, we can get away with having a fraction of that capacity and it still works fine, grid electricity being about 99.95% reliable on average in Australia.

3. Smart meters. Turning off your TV isn't really the objective here. Making you pay a fortune to watch it is another matter...

Practical loads that can be turned off to manage demand are things like hot water (very commonly switched already in Australia and NZ), pool pumps (commonly used this way in Qld), deep freezes, heat banks etc. Turning the lights off really isn't the objective.

 

[Boyou]

Thanks for all the tech smarts on CFCL ,Smurf1976.Always enjoy your posts

For those interested CFCL.They will be featured on tonight's 7.30 Report .ABC

Brendan Dow ,interviewed by Kerry Obrien..just what we need ..mainstream media exposure

 

[noco]

Thanks for all the tech smarts on CFCL ,Smurf1976.Always enjoy your posts

For those interested CFCL.They will be featured on tonight's 7.30 Report .ABC

Brendan Dow ,interviewed by Kerry Obrien..just what we need ..mainstream media exposure

Thanks for that tip Boyou on the 7.30 report.

The rap CFCL received tonight should see a boost on the market tomorrow.
Think I will top up and support an exciting project.

Good luck to all holders.

 

[jbocker]

Thanks for all the tech smarts on CFCL ,Smurf1976.Always enjoy your posts

For those interested CFCL.They will be featured on tonight's 7.30 Report .ABC

Brendan Dow ,interviewed by Kerry Obrien..just what we need ..mainstream media exposure

I missed the report on TV but have read the transcript. Did it go well?

Supports my suspicion that the coal industry is quite protected by the federal govt, considering SENATOR NICK XENOPHON comments solar heat pumps are allowed for consideration in renewal energy target although in some areas using coal as a feed stock but SENATOR PENNY WONG claims Ceramic Fuels are not because it uses gas as a feed stock, albeit much more efficiently.
Oh and to include it would "crowd out" the other technologies.. ??? Nice one Penny CLIMATE CHANGE MINISTER. Get with the program, and support industies that are supporting your own precious carbon challenge.
Do you expect industries to really bother with that sort of encouragement?

 

[Smurf1976]

ISupports my suspicion that the coal industry is quite protected by the federal govt, considering SENATOR NICK XENOPHON comments solar heat pumps are allowed for consideration in renewal energy target although in some areas using coal as a feed stock

I will simply point out that a heat pump used to heat either the air or hot water will, for a quality installation, use 70% less electricity than a conventional electric heater used the same way.

That is comparable to the performance of commercially available solar water heaters in climates such as Sydney or Perth, and substantially exceeds the performance of those units in Vic / Tas.

In the case of room heating, there really isn't a practical solar option that can be easily retrofitted to existing houses. That leaves heat pumps, gas, and efficient wood burners as really the only options in terms of energy efficiency. Now, a great many people have no access to mains gas and wood isn't suitable in many applications. That leaves either heat pumps (reverse cycle air-conditioners) or energy guzzling direct electric heating.

Heat pumps seem to cop an awful lot of criticism. All I can really say is that installing one will save far more CO2 emissions than you'll ever save catching the bus to work and switching off a few lights. Indeed it will in many cases save more than if you got rid of your car and lights completely.

All that said, there are plenty of poor quality heat pumps around that I would strongly recommend avoiding. Smurf has recently installed a Siddons Solarstream heat pump for water heating and it's doing fine despite the frost on the ground outside at this time of year. In due course, I plan on also installing a Panasonic reverse cycle air-conditioner to replace the wood heating. They aren't the only decent brands, but they are among them.

Don't buy things promoted by former cricket players or TV execs and don't buy heat pumps made by companies that also make chemical drums. Lots of control board faults with the former, and even the company's own service techs seem to struggle with the latter. Get something that works instead...

 

[Boyou]

I missed the report on TV but have read the transcript. Did it go well?

Supports my suspicion that the coal industry is quite protected by the federal govt, considering SENATOR NICK XENOPHON comments solar heat pumps are allowed for consideration in renewal energy target although in some areas using coal as a feed stock but SENATOR PENNY WONG claims Ceramic Fuels are not because it uses gas as a feed stock, albeit much more efficiently.
Oh and to include it would "crowd out" the other technologies.. ??? Nice one Penny CLIMATE CHANGE MINISTER. Get with the program, and support industies that are supporting your own precious carbon challenge.
Do you expect industries to really bother with that sort of encouragement?

I thought the report was reasonably comprehensive..albeit too short (of course)
Penny Wong's attitude is regrettable,but the thing to remember is that CFCL's focus has always been on sales to Europe and Asia.Kicking goals (been watching too much world cup ) at home is all very well for our image as a progressive carbon reducing nation ,but the big gains are offshore.
Brendan Dow did seem to be engaging in some histrionics when he said they had no choice but to go OS for buyers! it was in the business model from day one.
What would be most informative is if we could see an interview with Penny Wong's equivalent in Germany or France or Japan ....

 

[robusta]

Brendan Dow said on the 7.30 report "If I had 10,000 units available right now today, I could sell all 10,000 units really easily"

The factory in Germany is all tooled up and apparently in production why arent we getting ASX announcements of further sales/orders?

 

[Boyou]

I think BD was engaging in a bit of hyperbole for the cameras...

They certainly have the capacity to produce 10K of units per year,but the orders aren't forthcoming yet.

Patience is the name of the game..the rewards will be great

 

[frankblack]

The Victorian Government has now begun a review to consider the cost effectiveness of
extending the feed-in tariff provisions to low-emissions technologies, including fuel cells.

The Government has released a consultation paper and is seeking submissions. The
closing date for submissions is 23 July 2010.

I guess, as i have been predicting, John Brumby is making his move to save his neck, now that polls today are showing a huge swing to the GREENS, who by the way oppose the use of government support in using CFCLs CO2 busting technology.
In the end something will have to be done about victoria's polluting power stations, you cant rely on solar or wind to make a difference.
So Brumby will come to CFCLs rescue after all, not that it makes any difference to the CFU share price.

 

[sharezum]

Been hanging onto this company because the technology makes perfect sense - low emission generator based at the point of use so no line loss. Also the optional bonus of hot water. But the Government and Greens don't seem well disposed to this system because it runs on gas which is not renewable. That attitude is going to be the main thing to hold this product back.

 

[ShareDevil]

well in that case geothermal is not renewable either...

tipgas, methane from a tip, is that renewable?

I guess not, but it's good to use it, is it not?

Humans need to eat more to fuel their bike riding, it's just a more EFFICIENT use of fuel to ride a bike. The human body can use all sorts of fuel and turn it into energy very efficiently.

But then whats the point in riding a bike if you eat baby seal eyes imported from the North pole in an oil burning tractor? May aswell just drive a car and live in an enormous house heated and cooled by a massive coal fired power station.

I hold CFCL and live in hope that people in the real world (10years from now) can see the benefit of making your own energy at the point of consumption.

 

[Smurf1976]

I hold CFCL and live in hope that people in the real world (10years from now) can see the benefit of making your own energy at the point of consumption.

A wind farm or hydro dam, for example, actually "makes" energy in that it turnes an otherwise untapped resource into something useful (electricity).

Fuel cells on the other hand are simply a means of converting one energy form (natural gas) into another (electricity). Yes they are efficient, but ultimately that is all they are - a more thermally efficient fossil fuel power station.

Even taking the higher efficiency into account, fuel cells still involve the use of at least 10 times as much fossil fuel as do large scale wind or hydro generation sources. It wouldn't be overly different for geothermal, large scale solar towers etc either.

It's a bit like switching to low tar cigarettes and cooking your chips in canola oil because you're getting worried about your health. A step in the right direction maybe, but you'd be better off giving up the smokes and chips entirely.

The fuel cell product has merit, but it also has limitations. Using Victoria as an example, where would they get all the gas to run them from?

 

[roland]

From a different perspective, foregoing the Green View - for some it's about getting your power as cheaply as possible.

Of course all of the marketing for CFU has to be aimed at the Green Brigade to encourage Governments to provide RET's or purchasing assistance or whatever.

If CFU can position their product to be an economical and viable way to reduce an average household power bill, then it will be a winner.

Personally I don't give 2 hoots about how dirty my power is, there are enough other's worrying about the Green side on my behalf. For me, it's about getting the cheapest power possible

 

[Smurf1976]

Personally I don't give 2 hoots about how dirty my power is, there are enough other's worrying about the Green side on my behalf. For me, it's about getting the cheapest power possible

If you look at what people actually do, rather than what they say, then the vast majority of Australians would seem to agree with you.

I have solar panels on the roof for electricity, heat pump for hot water, gas cooktop and wood for heating. Needless to say, I don't use too much electricity. But I've yet to meet anyone, apart from engineering and technical types, who has asked me any question about all of this other than financial ones.

Every now and then there's a bit of a fuss about some specific source of power, but at the end of the day people just want the lights on and the bill low. A lot of words, but very little action from most.

From a marketing perspecitive, fuel cells face the same problem as other energy saving technologies. Consumers are generally reluctant to make an up front investment in something that will in due course save them money. Witness the relative lack of interest in solar hot water etc.

 

[roland]

From a marketing perspecitive, fuel cells face the same problem as other energy saving technologies. Consumers are generally reluctant to make an up front investment in something that will in due course save them money. Witness the relative lack of interest in solar hot water etc.

I agree, also I am a renter, so there is no way I would invest in someone elses property. So for me the solution would also have to be extremely portable.

 

[frankblack]

From a different perspective, foregoing the Green View - for some it's about getting your power as cheaply as possible.

Of course all of the marketing for CFU has to be aimed at the Green Brigade to encourage Governments to provide RET's or purchasing assistance or whatever.

If CFU can position their product to be an economical and viable way to reduce an average household power bill, then it will be a winner.

Personally I don't give 2 hoots about how dirty my power is, there are enough other's worrying about the Green side on my behalf. For me, it's about getting the cheapest power possible

This is correct, but do you assume there will not be a price put on carbon (CO2), or that it will a very low price?
Because in some states, take Victoria for example, this would make the price
of power go through the roof.
It seems like nobody considers this?

 

[Smurf1976]

This is correct, but do you assume there will not be a price put on carbon (CO2), or that it will a very low price?
Because in some states, take Victoria for example, this would make the price
of power go through the roof.
It seems like nobody considers this?

"some states" in this context means, in practice, all of Qld, NSW, ACT, Vic, Tas and SA since they are all interconnected.

Something I've thought for a while is this. In 2010, people get all excited about interest rates and the Reserve Bank because interest is a significant expense for many. Very few worry too much about energy.

In 2030 I fully expect that energy prices will be routine headlines, and that nobody will care too much about RBA board meetings since, relatively speaking, interest won't be as important to household finances as the price of energy.

 

[frankblack]

"some states" in this context means, in practice, all of Qld, NSW, ACT, Vic, Tas and SA since they are all interconnected.

Something I've thought for a while is this. In 2010, people get all excited about interest rates and the Reserve Bank because interest is a significant expense for many. Very few worry too much about energy.

In 2030 I fully expect that energy prices will be routine headlines, and that nobody will care too much about RBA board meetings since, relatively speaking, interest won't be as important to household finances as the price of energy.

O.K. so I dont understand the issue with interconnection,? wouldnt Victorians still get 90% or so, dont know the figure ?? of power from brown coal, making them more pay more???
And when you say "price of energy", do you mean electricity??
And so, do you expect the prices to be fluctuating or just going up??
And why? Sorry I didnt get your reasoning.