Cashless society

[Faramir]

Haven't seen one of the old credit card imprinters with their distinctive sound for a few years now. I suspect the average ~18 year old checkout operator has literally never seen one or has any idea that such a thing exists and was once common. Indeed I expect most would have no idea the raised printing on a credit card isn't just for appearance and actually served a very real purpose.

And @Value Collector
When I first got my first mobile EFTPOS m/c 15-16 years ago, the bank also gave me a manual cc imprint machine as a backup for power outages, internet was down, etc.

I loved it and lend it to one of my staff (before I got a second EFTPOS).

I think roughly 9, 10 (or more) years ago, I wanted another imprint m/c and the bank wouldn’t give me one. The company that makes those devices went bankrupt or they closed down due to poor demand. I guess there a bit of custom work making an imprint plate for businesses as well.

Those things printed triplet copies and I had to go to the bank to give them the white slips. (Customers got yellow slips). Then it will take a while (2 or 3 days) to process those slips. Nowadays, this system would be deemed too slow - people want instantaneous information showing up on their phones.

As for fraud - go to the bin and find a slip (blue?) that hasn’t been torn to pieces by the lazy sales staff.

Those manual cc swipers don’t exist anymore. I wonder if the bank still accepts them? I am sure my bank told me to return my one.

 

[farmerge]

And @Value Collector
When I first got my first mobile EFTPOS m/c 15-16 years ago, the bank also gave me a manual cc imprint machine as a backup for power outages, internet was down, etc.

I loved it and lend it to one of my staff (before I got a second EFTPOS).

I think roughly 9, 10 (or more) years ago, I wanted another imprint m/c and the bank wouldn’t give me one. The company that makes those devices went bankrupt or they closed down due to poor demand. I guess there a bit of custom work making an imprint plate for businesses as well.

Those things printed triplet copies and I had to go to the bank to give them the white slips. (Customers got yellow slips). Then it will a while (2 or 3 days) to process those slips. Nowadays, this system would be deemed too slow - people want instantaneous information showing up on their phones.

As for fraud - go to the bin and find a slip (blue?) that hasn’t been torn to pieces by the lazy sales staff.

Those manual cc swipers don’t exist anymore. I wonder if the bank still accepts them? I am sure my bank told me to return my one.

Faeamir actually, just last year when there was a power outage this very ancient peice of machinery was brought to the fore do exactly what you described. I also didn't think that they existed anymore.The owner of the business said he was suppossed to get rid of it, but found it useful, of course, when der power went down. He could still transact business.

 

[Faramir]

The owner of the business said he was suppossed to get rid of it, but found it useful, of course, when der power went down. He could still transact business.

How does he get his cc slips? Did he hoard them during the good old days? ? I use to visit the bank weekly to deposit cash, cheques and cc slips. Now no one ( or very few) to pay cash. So I rarely visit the bank. I guess branches have less business people visiting them. Less traffic - we know what happened to Bank branches.

Keep your Yellow Slip - it will be valued one day ?

 

[Value Collector]

Is that allowed in Australia? I did a quick search & found no mention of it on our banking site.

Imagine handing over your credit card details to be stored in EFTPOS machines at different stores, and with your PIN. You are a brave person.

However, I do see it coming and the small risk being accepted.

My CBA terminal used to do it.

I also just did a 10 second Google and found westpac advertising the feature

It’s safer than letting the shop use one of those Manuel imprinting machines where the card details are printed on a slip anyone can read, having the details temporarily stored in an encrypted machine is not dangerous.

 

[Value Collector]

How does he get his cc slips? Did he hoard them during the good old days? ? I use to visit the bank weekly to deposit cash, cheques and cc slips. Now no one ( or very few) to pay cash. So I rarely visit the bank. I guess branches have less business people visiting them. Less traffic - we know what happened to Bank branches.

Keep your Yellow Slip - it will be valued one day ?

Yeah the imprinting machines are obsolete, as I said the modern machines can do it for you they can either store the information for processing later, or can actually print out offline documents instead of using the imprinting machine.

 

[JohnDe]

My CBA terminal used to do it.

I also just did a 10 second Google and found westpac advertising the feature

It’s safer than letting the shop use one of those Manuel imprinting machines where the card details are printed on a slip anyone can read, having the details temporarily stored in an encrypted machine is not dangerous.

View attachment 153393

Does that mean that it stores the customer’s PIN for amounts greater than $200 until the transaction is completed?

 

[againsthegrain]

Does that mean that it stores the customer’s PIN for amounts greater than $200 until the transaction is completed?

It would be encrypted, there are standards you have to follow to store credit card data offline

 

[JohnDe]

It would be encrypted, there are standards you have to follow to store credit card data offline

That may work for Credit Cards, but it will not for Debit Cards. As you know Debit Cards only work when there are funds in the account, there would be no way to check if the funds where in the account if the system is down.

As for storing a customer's PIN, I am still not convinced and can find no documentation other than mention of the CCV -

6.5.3 Should I save CCV security codes?​

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No, never store the CCV codes as they must remain confidential. You should not write them down or save them electronically. Doing so might lead to misuse of the information and put your business at risk. CVV codes should only be used with the initial transaction for authorisation but never stored for future transactions.​

 

[Value Collector]

Does that mean that it stores the customer’s PIN for amounts greater than $200 until the transaction is completed?

I am not sure, I think my CBA one (7 years ago) asked for a signature, but I am not sure I can’t really remember, I only had to use that feature once.

 

[Value Collector]

That may work for Credit Cards, but it will not for Debit Cards. As you know Debit Cards only work when there are funds in the account, there would be no way to check if the funds where in the account if the system is down.

As for storing a customer's PIN, I am still not convinced and can find no documentation other than mention of the CCV -

6.5.3 Should I save CCV security codes?​

​

No, never store the CCV codes as they must remain confidential. You should not write them down or save them electronically. Doing so might lead to misuse of the information and put your business at risk. CVV codes should only be used with the initial transaction for authorisation but never stored for future transactions.​

I think it did also work for debit cards, the merchant is obviously taking some additional risk there though.

 

[JohnDe]

I think it did also work for debit cards, the merchant is obviously taking some additional risk there though.

The merchant is only at risk if the EFTPOS machine informs the merchant that a Debit Card is being used and if funds are not available after the transaction and when the system is back online they may not receive payment.
My EFTPOS machine does not give such advice and/or information, it just cancels the transaction and says something like 'Contact your provider' or 'Transaction declined'.

 

[JohnDe]

I am not sure, I think my CBA one (7 years ago) asked for a signature, but I am not sure I can’t really remember, I only had to use that feature once.

I have not seen a request for a signature in about 3 years. I believe that the security on cards was increased by compulsory introduction of a PIN.

 

[moXJO]

In a world of AI and quantum computing- digital transactions are in more danger than cash.

Cash should be round for a while yet. Well unless governments are completely stupid.

 

[Value Collector]

The merchant is only at risk if the EFTPOS machine informs the merchant that a Debit Card is being used and if funds are not available after the transaction and when the system is back online they may not receive payment.
My EFTPOS machine does not give such advice and/or information, it just cancels the transaction and says something like 'Contact your provider' or 'Transaction declined'.

That’s what I am saying, the Merchant has to make a business decision on whether they want to shut down their coffee shop to all credit and debit card sales, or allow them to be processed off line knowing that some of the sales might not go through later.

Remember the Merchant also has the option of calling the company that issued his eftpos terminal and getting phone approval if it is a big sale.

———————
I think some of the modern machines have the ability to connect via both land line and Mobile.

So these worries about cashless society/ electronic sales not being possible are a not really reasonable, there are so many ways around it.

 

[Value Collector]

In a world of AI and quantum computing- digital transactions are in more danger than cash.

Cash should be round for a while yet. Well unless governments are completely stupid.

I don’t know about that, I feel safer walking around with a credit card with a $20K limit than I do with $20K in cash.

 

[moXJO]

I don’t know about that, I feel safer walking around with a credit card with a $20K limit than I do with $20K in cash.

You probably shouldn't. I can (hypothetically) steal your details without you actually knowing.

 

[Value Collector]

I have not seen a request for a signature in about 3 years. I believe that the security on cards was increased by compulsory introduction of a PIN.

I just got a back from the USA and I was asked for a signature a few times there.

But, I was talking about offline transactions, they could ask for a pin or a signature I am not sure, as I said it’s been a long time since I have owned a business that required me to have an eftpos terminal.

 

[Value Collector]

You probably shouldn't. I can steal your details without you actually knowing.

Yeah, but you probably won’t shoot me, and I have recourse with the banks to get any stolen money back.

You used the word “dangerous” very few digital scams lead to death and injuries. However robberies involving people trying to steal physical cash often do escalate to violence, and have almost no recourse to retrieve stolen funds.

 

[JohnDe]

That’s what I am saying, the Merchant has to make a business decision on whether they want to shut down their coffee shop to all credit and debit card sales, or allow them to be processed off line knowing that some of the sales might not go through later.

Remember the Merchant also has the option of calling the company that issued his eftpos terminal and getting phone approval if it is a big sale.

———————
I think some of the modern machines have the ability to connect via both land line and Mobile.

So these worries about cashless society/ electronic sales not being possible are a not really reasonable, there are so many ways around it.

At the present time, your hope is bigger than reality.

The cashier now has the added responsibility of choosing whether to accept all cards or shut down temporarily.

The franchisee must now look up the procedure and call the bank for an authorisation number.

When the 'system' is down it is not due to an internet fault, it is usually the bank. And when that happens everyone is phoning the bank at the same time.

At least the banks have compensated businesses for losses.

NAB outage: Bank promises to compensate customers for losses from nationwide disruption​

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NAB says it will compensate customers "100 per cent" for any losses incurred during a nationwide outage that left people cashless and small businesses unable to process transactions on a crucial trading day.​

 

[moXJO]

Yeah, but you probably won’t shoot me, and I have recourse with the banks to get any stolen money back.

You used the word “dangerous” very few digital scams lead to death and injuries. However robberies involving people trying to steal physical cash often do escalate to violence, and have almost no recourse to retrieve stolen funds.

Your phone can get you killed. Along with your shoes. Statistically murder is down. No one is shooting you here for your money in day to day transactions.

There's a reason why there are so many scams targeting banking details/cards.
Quantum computing will only add to the difficulty. I'd say banking will have to change by a bit. Banks won't protect your money forever. They will change the posts the same way insurance companies did.