Bringing back Australian Manufacturing: Discard programmed obsolescence

[divs4ever]

1, The Labour goes to the next best place/industry that pops up. I mean 99% of people used to work on farms, now less than 1% do but we don’t have 99% unemployment, new industries popped up.

New jobs are popping up everywhere, we have more doctors and nurses than ever before, more aged care workers, more teaches, more police, more soldiers, more baristas, more delivery drivers, more miners, everything is growing Etc etc.

2. It depends what you mean by “encourage” if you mean put a tariff on imported batteries that makes them more expressive for us to buy, while diverting aged care workers into battery factories, what is the benefit?

3. Mining creates taxes and dividends that fund things right across the economy, Fortescue just funded my lunch creating employment at a hungry jacks north of Brisbane, and funding some GST at the same time. It pays my council rates and Cole’s shopping etc too.

well on the south outskirts of Brisbane , that industry is crime ( either committing it , or preventing it , or repairing the damage caused )

the area had small crop farms but now has subdivisions ( townhouses and units )

by the way well are encouraging migrants to flood in .. where do they work and live in an increasingly automated society

 

[sptrawler]

That graph is a bit deceptive, if you canned all the mining activities in WA it would decimate Perth altogether, even in other regional areas that rely on mining like Makay, Townsville, and Rockhampton.

That's the point I'm making, if you decimate mining completely, it wouldn't only decimate Perth, financially it would decimate Australia.
Whether we want to or not, we have to start and diversify our industries and improve our technical base.

 

[sptrawler]

1, The Labour goes to the next best place/industry that pops up. I mean 99% of people used to work on farms, now less than 1% do but we don’t have 99% unemployment, new industries popped up.

New jobs are popping up everywhere, we have more doctors and nurses than ever before, more aged care workers, more teaches, more police, more soldiers, more baristas, more delivery drivers, more miners, everything is growing Etc etc.

2. It depends what you mean by “encourage” if you mean put a tariff on imported batteries that makes them more expressive for us to buy, while diverting aged care workers into battery factories, what is the benefit?

3. Mining creates taxes and dividends that fund things right across the economy, Fortescue just funded my lunch creating employment at a hungry jacks north of Brisbane, and funding some GST at the same time. It pays my council rates and Cole’s shopping etc too.

As I said, all the jobs growth is either Govt or service sector employment, which isn't bring money into the country, most of it is Govt funded.
The biggest jobs growth in recent years has been the NDIS, don't try and tell me that is improving the economy.
Talking about a thriving economy, when the only real money being made is by miners selling raw materials, doesn't really cut it as a first world industrialised economy IMO.
Let's put it another way, even Albo said we have to start and manufacture certain things, no one is suggesting manufacturing everything, but as I said earlier we are now getting a vaccine production facility which makes sense.

 

[Value Collector]

1. Productivity comes from technology, and its better to be able to produce our own technology than to depend on others.

2. If you don't think self reliance has any value, then sell all your investments and get a nine to five job where you can be sacked any time.

1, No, productivity comes from the efficient application of labour and capital together. The misapplication of either, results in reduced productivity.

2. Self sufficiency in this context would be attempting to produce everything myself, eg shelter, food, clothing. My life would be pretty crappy I reckon.

Having a 9-5 where I focus on providing one service I to the economy that I am good at, and import all the others into my household is smarter than trying to do everything myself, it’s smart at both the house hold and national level.

But, I quite enjoy my current role as a capital allocator, doing my part to provide capital to the Australian and global economy, and do my best to allocate it efficiently.

It’s not about self sufficiency, I rely on the economy around me for everything, and it relies on mine and other investors capital.

 

[Value Collector]

That's the point I'm making, if you decimate mining completely, it wouldn't only decimate Perth, financially it would decimate Australia.
Whether we want to or not, we have to start and diversify our industries and improve our technical base.

you worry to much, our mining industry is t going anywhere fast, if it does. In to fade we will just shift to the next best thing.

 

[divs4ever]

That's the point I'm making, if you decimate mining completely, it wouldn't only decimate Perth, financially it would decimate Australia.
Whether we want to or not, we have to start and diversify our industries and improve our technical base.

yes , i believe Ms. Rinehart is still Australia's biggest individual tax-payer , and there is bigger miners operating in Australia

cull Gina and Twiggy from the tax receipts and that is an awful lot of nail technicians and hair dressers to fill that gap

 

[Value Collector]

well on the south outskirts of Brisbane , that industry is crime ( either committing it , or preventing it , or repairing the damage caused )

the area had small crop farms but now has subdivisions ( townhouses and units )

by the way well are encouraging migrants to flood in .. where do they work and live in an increasingly automated society

That’s a pretty cynical view, that doesn’t equate to reality, Brisbane has some of the lowest unemployment in Australia.

Immigrants work in all industries, go to hospital and you will find most of the doctors and nurses are immigrants or children of immigrants, same with aged care, and all across the service industry.

 

[divs4ever]

That’s a pretty cynical view, that doesn’t equate to reality, Brisbane has some of the lowest unemployment in Australia.

Immigrants work in all industries, go to hospital and you will find most of the doctors and nurses are immigrants or children of immigrants, same with aged care, and all across the service industry.

cynical it may be , but every time i visit the area i count the new anti-ramraid devices ' installed on the local strip malls

i am stunned that they haven't just put in gates ( and barriers ) for the after hours , like military bases do ( one mall was being hit 3 times a week last year )

remember every ram-raid means another stolen car ( or more as they need a getaway ride )

 

[SirRumpole]

It’s not about self sufficiency, I rely on the economy around me for everything, and it relies on mine and other investors capital.

That's fine when things are going well but you have to plan for the worse as well.

Cut supply lines, another GFC, another pandemic.

Remember we couldn't get vaccines from Europe because they supplied themselves first. The prices of motor vehicles are going through the roof because of chip shortages. The effect of China taking over Taiwan and grabbing their chip industry would be devastating on the world economy.

 

[fiftyeight]

Two.
If we can encourage a manufacturer like Samsung, LG, Tesla, Catyl, BYD to build a grid battery manufacturing plant in Australia, why shouldn't we? That is my question.

Maybe it does not make sense to build cars, but the fact we struggle to move up the vaule chain, at all, is a joke.

I would much rather divert capital to truly profitable export industries and use the profits to buy all the stuff we couldn’t be profitable in, and provide jobs that are better than sweat shops.

With all the energry and natural resources we have, surely we can be profitable and do better than sweat shop jobs? Or do we just keep selling dirt and letting the NDIS continue to grow.

I dont disagree with you often VC, but on this one I do. There is no such thing as free trade, every gov gives assistance/protection, Aus just needs to figure out what industry we can prop up profitably.

 

[sptrawler]

you worry to much, our mining industry is t going anywhere fast, if it does. In to fade we will just shift to the next best thing.

We wont know what the next best thing is, unless we start and develop some technological industries and grow the next best thing.
If we don't do that, there wont be a next best thing, there will be a country that is spending well beyond it's means.
I know yourself and I wont be around to see it, but it is still obvious and we have a responsibility to try and do something about it.

 

[TimeISmoney]

Productivity comes from technology, and its better to be able to produce our own technology than to depend on others.

If you don't think self reliance has any value, then sell all your investments and get a nine to five job where you can be sacked any time.

You haven't been to India, have you?

 

[SirRumpole]

You haven't been to India, have you?

Fortunately no.

 

[Value Collector]

With all the energry and natural resources we have, surely we can be profitable and do better than sweat shop jobs? Or do we just keep selling dirt and letting the NDIS continue to grow.

I dont disagree with you often VC, but on this one I do. There is no such thing as free trade, every gov gives assistance/protection, Aus just needs to figure out what industry we can prop up profitably.

let’s take Iron Ore as an example.

Digging it up and shipping it to China is highly profitable, we can earn 15% return on capital in the bad years and 50% return on capital in the good years by deploying capital into mining Iron Ore, all while also providing really high paying jobs.

However, steel making is not a very profitable business, you might make 10% on your capital in the good years and heavy losses in the bad years, and the jobs are lower paid.

So how much capital and labour do we want to divert away from mining Iron Ore and into steel making?

It makes sense to make a bit of steel here to the extent we are utilising our recycled steel and providing niche products that can be sold at a profit, but trying to really ramp it up at the expense of other industries that are more profitable is crazy.

 

[Value Collector]

We wont know what the next best thing is, unless we start and develop some technological industries and grow the next best thing.
If we don't do that, there wont be a next best thing, there will be a country that is spending well beyond it's means.
I know yourself and I wont be around to see it, but it is still obvious and we have a responsibility to try and do something about it.

It happens naturally, it’s called “the invisible hand of the market”.

Us trying to guess what the best industry for Australia to be involved in 3 generations from now is silly, but I would bet it would still be mining.

 

[SirRumpole]

let’s take Iron Ore as an example.

Digging it up and shipping it to China is highly profitable, we can earn 15% return on capital in the bad years and 50% return on capital in the good years by deploying capital into mining Iron Ore, all while also providing really high paying jobs.

However, steel making is not a very profitable business, you might make 10% on your capital in the good years and heavy losses in the bad years, and the jobs are lower paid.

So how much capital and labour do we want to divert away from mining Iron Ore and into steel making?

It makes sense to make a bit of steel here to the extent we are utilising our recycled steel and providing niche products that can be sold at a profit, but trying to really ramp it up at the expense of other industries that are more profitable is crazy.

Its not all about profits!

What happens if China stops selling steel to us, a nd other sources are too busy serving their own markets?

It puts us at a big disadvantage for an essential material and as other s have said, employment provided by mining is minuscule.

 

[Value Collector]

That's fine when things are going well but you have to plan for the worse as well.

Cut supply lines, another GFC, another pandemic.

Remember we couldn't get vaccines from Europe because they supplied themselves first. The prices of motor vehicles are going through the roof because of chip shortages. The effect of China taking over Taiwan and grabbing their chip industry would be devastating on the world economy.

As I said, the more we try to be self sufficient, the lower our standard of living will be, it’s true for a household and it’s true for a nation, especially a tiny one like us. Look at North Korea vs South Korea as an example.

Your life is better because your household doesn’t try to be self sufficient and instead picked an industry you could produce in and trade with others out side your household.

If we ever met aliens from another planet, and can trade with them, we should do that too.

 

[Value Collector]

Its not all about profits!

What happens if China stops selling steel to us, a nd other sources are too busy serving their own markets?

It puts us at a big disadvantage for an essential material and as other s have said, employment provided by mining is minuscule.

We have a local steel industry, I am not saying get rid of it, but if China stopped selling steel we will buy steel from Japan, or South Korea or in that case then we will ramp up steel production here.

It is about profits, if you don’t have the profits, where are the taxes that support our government spending that we all enjoy going to come from?

 

[TimeISmoney]

That's the point I'm making, if you decimate mining completely, it wouldn't only decimate Perth, financially it would decimate Australia.
Whether we want to or not, we have to start and diversify our industries and improve our technical base.

If only the Govt was smart enough to skim money from industries in the good growth years and re-invest it elsewhere.

The only way forward now would be to print more money and that would be devastating for our economy.

The hole that Australia is in now was dug years ago and it's going to take years to climb out.

Germany was the closest industrial model to keep any manufacturing alive in first-world countries but even they have problems now.

 

[Value Collector]

Anyway, I think you guys need a bit more Adam Smith in your life, so I will leave this here.