Boxer rejects drug test on religious grounds

Julia · 16 August 2006

visual said:
Julia,why do we need oil to spread information?
Bill Gates is doing it with money,I`m sure that womens right will filter through there slowly,but if we in the west replace the informed women ,with the uninformed ones,not much is going to be achieved will there.

For example why would we need oil for someone to go and talk,or highlight the plight of these women ,but often not only when the calendar rolls on the day of something for the victims of islam.And whatever we think, it is women and children who make up the number of their greatest victims.

Visual

Your passion for the plight of Islamic women is clear to all of us. I doubt anyone would disagree that female circumcision is a barbaric practice.
And most members of this forum would probably prefer not to see Muslim women dressed in the hijab.

You are outraged that more people do not speak out about these practices which to you are so offensive.

Can I suggest to you that one of the reasons is that, dire though it may appear to you, it is but one of hundreds of offensive practices which occur throughout the world all the time. As human beings, we are all primarily concerned with our own little piece of life, our families, our jobs, our interests. That is where our energy goes first. And then, if there's any energy and thought left over, we might apply our sense of concern to other people.

Sometimes that energy and concern just runs out. You've heard of "compassion fatigue". Mostly Australians and New Zealanders are generous hearted people who will demonstrate concern and sympathy for the plight of others, especially in an emergency, viz. the tsunami etc.

But the world is just so full of "causes" that sometimes I think we just feel that there's nothing we personally can do about a particular problem and thus cross it off our "to worry about" list.

I personally am devastated at the amount of animal cruelty which abounds.
e.g. bears in China imprisoned in a tiny cage in which they cannot even extend their limbs for their whole lives in order that their oppressors can milk their bile, a very painful process. The bears have no chance of altering their fate. Neither do the thousands of domestic dogs which are chained up, regularly beaten and hardly fed.

The women you are so distraught about can speak for themselves if they so wish. There are educated women amongst these races. It is up to them to improve the lives of their "sisters". It is up to them to reject male domination.

Contrary to what you suggest, there has been a great deal of media protest about the practices you describe, many people have done their best to enlighten the populations which still persist in these mutilations, but, in the end, it is up to the people themselves to make what changes they decide.
They are people just like you and me. If they find something so totally unacceptable then it is up to them to decide that, not for us on the other side of the world to tell them what they should or should not do.

There seems to be a characteristic which attaches to the Western personality of "needing to rescue other nations from themselves". Often, as is so patently obvious, the reasons for this apparent altruism are nothing more than self interest, e.g. oil etc. But even when that is possibly not the greatest motivator, we seem to have this tendency to want to make others think and behave like us. Seems to me like egocentricity in the extreme.

Julia

visual · 16 August 2006

Julia said:
Visual

Your passion for the plight of Islamic women is clear to all of us. I doubt anyone would disagree that female circumcision is a barbaric practice.
And most members of this forum would probably prefer not to see Muslim women dressed in the hijab.

You are outraged that more people do not speak out about these practices which to you are so offensive.

Can I suggest to you that one of the reasons is that, dire though it may appear to you, it is but one of hundreds of offensive practices which occur throughout the world all the time. As human beings, we are all primarily concerned with our own little piece of life, our families, our jobs, our interests. That is where our energy goes first. And then, if there's any energy and thought left over, we might apply our sense of concern to other people.

Sometimes that energy and concern just runs out. You've heard of "compassion fatigue". Mostly Australians and New Zealanders are generous hearted people who will demonstrate concern and sympathy for the plight of others, especially in an emergency, viz. the tsunami etc.

But the world is just so full of "causes" that sometimes I think we just feel that there's nothing we personally can do about a particular problem and thus cross it off our "to worry about" list.

I personally am devastated at the amount of animal cruelty which abounds.
e.g. bears in China imprisoned in a tiny cage in which they cannot even extend their limbs for their whole lives in order that their oppressors can milk their bile, a very painful process. The bears have no chance of altering their fate. Neither do the thousands of domestic dogs which are chained up, regularly beaten and hardly fed.

The women you are so distraught about can speak for themselves if they so wish. There are educated women amongst these races. It is up to them to improve the lives of their "sisters". It is up to them to reject male domination.

Contrary to what you suggest, there has been a great deal of media protest about the practices you describe, many people have done their best to enlighten the populations which still persist in these mutilations, but, in the end, it is up to the people themselves to make what changes they decide.
They are people just like you and me. If they find something so totally unacceptable then it is up to them to decide that, not for us on the other side of the world to tell them what they should or should not do.

There seems to be a characteristic which attaches to the Western personality of "needing to rescue other nations from themselves". Often, as is so patently obvious, the reasons for this apparent altruism are nothing more than self interest, e.g. oil etc. But even when that is possibly not the greatest motivator, we seem to have this tendency to want to make others think and behave like us. Seems to me like egocentricity in the extreme.

Julia

Julia,you make many points in your post one of which is that the media has made protests in the media,perhaps before 9/11 but since than the media has mostly been trying to convince us that what was an injustice then is cultural practice now,for example we get many articles where Australian women show muslim women that they are just like them in spite of the hijab,so thereby confirming the myth that this is a religious attire and really they cant do without,in any case ,I doubt that I can defend myself or my intentions against claims of egocentricity,thats like trying to prove that a person is not racist,thats for someone else to determine,you obviously think that so ,what can I say,hope those bears get freed soon.

Big Jim · 17 August 2006

warney said:
i think it takes 10,000 people to start a new religion,then we can carry on like pork chops about anything we like and anyone who says otherwise it will then be discrimination on the grounds of religion. bobby you have my vote as leader cause you have the first commandment. "thou shalt not pay tax"

I am chief cleric of the "Church of GiveUsYourMoney" We are reputable and are ammassing quite a following. Please send your donation to PO Box 000 in your nearest capital city. thank you

visual · 17 August 2006

Julia said:
Visual

"We don't need oil...." ????????

Julia

No, what we need is community awareness such as that Murdoch and Kidman et all,can bring to this issue. :

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,20157470-23109,00.html

Julia · 17 August 2006

Visual

I wasn't suggesting that your individual behaviour was egocentric. On the contrary. Your passion for others is clear.

What I meant was that as a group of nations, western countries trying to force our way of life on other countries/races, is a form of collective egocentricity.

Julia

warney · 17 August 2006

Big Jim said:
I am chief cleric of the "Church of GiveUsYourMoney" We are reputable and are ammassing quite a following. Please send your donation to PO Box 000 in your nearest capital city. thank you

i have sold all my shares on open,in 3 days the moneys in the mail

Rafa · 17 August 2006

Julia said:
Visual

What I meant was that as a group of nations, western countries trying to force our way of life on other countries/races, is a form of collective egocentricity.

Julia

Its amazing isn't it...

We are a race of preachers I think... if its not religion, its some idealism or its our way of life... and its amazing how everyone else always seems to have it wrong!

Yet... in terms of civilisations... those traditional ones have survived thousands of years intact... whereas our present 'way of life' is unravelling after barely 50 years of existence...

So far we have succeeded in producing over 50% of school kids on drugs/alcohol/cigarette addictions, over 50% of marriages ending in divorce, many many people not knowing who they are, what their purpose in life is, leading to chronic depression, or additions to consumerism, suicide, etc.... the list goes on!

Julia is spot on... We have plenty of things to fix up in our own backyard first... before getting on a moral crusade about fixing other peoples cultures!

visual · 17 August 2006

Rafa said:
Its amazing isn't it...

We are a race of preachers I think... if its not religion, its some idealism or its our way of life... and its amazing how everyone else always seems to have it wrong!

Yet... in terms of civilisations... those traditional ones have survived thousands of years intact... whereas our present 'way of life' is unravelling after barely 50 years of existence...

So far we have succeeded in producing over 50% of school kids on drugs/alcohol/cigarette addictions, over 50% of marriages ending in divorce, many many people not knowing who they are, what their purpose in life is, leading to chronic depression, or additions to consumerism, suicide, etc.... the list goes on!

Julia is spot on... We have plenty of things to fix up in our own backyard first... before getting on a moral crusade about fixing other peoples cultures!

Rafa,you were saying about preaching? :

I don`t know which traditional civilization you are referring to,however for a civilization to stand on its own it should`nt need to be supported by myths and outright lies,also you make some interesting observations about our civilization as compared to others(?) for example lets take iran with its old civilization,drug use is endemic,child abuse is referred to as marriage,men can divorce women but not the other way around,paints a tretty picture right?

I don`t like to preach,but then again don`t like to be preached to,

Julia · 17 August 2006

visual said:
Rafa,you were saying about preaching? :

I don`t know which traditional civilization you are referring to,however for a civilization to stand on its own it should`nt need to be supported by myths and outright lies,also you make some interesting observations about our civilization as compared to others(?) for example lets take iran with its old civilization,drug use is endemic,child abuse is referred to as marriage,men can divorce women but not the other way around,paints a tretty picture right?

I don`t like to preach,but then again don`t like to be preached to,

Visual

I don't think either Rafa or I were "preaching" at you. Don't take generalised criticisms of how western nations overall behave as being personally directed at you. Obviously they are not.

Let's try putting it this way: I am very glad to be living in Australia. I would hate to be a Muslim woman with all the ramifications that brings.

However, they probably feel exactly the same about us and find our lifestyle unappealing.

I don't want them coming here and trying to force their political and religious philosophies down my throat, so why should we do it to them?
I simply don't see why we in the West should feel we have the right to force our political systems (which we constantly complain about) and secular way of life on other people who appear to be fairly convinced that the way they live is right for them.

Their capacity for terrorism, particularly if they develop nuclear expertise, is another matter entirely. However, that's not what you are talking about.
You seem to be mainly concerned about their wearing of the hijab. Why are you so concerned about it? Isn't it their choice?

Julia

visual · 17 August 2006

Julia said:
Visual

I don't think either Rafa or I were "preaching" at you. Don't take generalised criticisms of how western nations overall behave as being personally directed at you. Obviously they are not.

Let's try putting it this way: I am very glad to be living in Australia. I would hate to be a Muslim woman with all the ramifications that brings.

However, they probably feel exactly the same about us and find our lifestyle unappealing.

I don't want them coming here and trying to force their political and religious philosophies down my throat, so why should we do it to them?
I simply don't see why we in the West should feel we have the right to force our political systems (which we constantly complain about) and secular way of life on other people who appear to be fairly convinced that the way they live is right for them.

Their capacity for terrorism, particularly if they develop nuclear expertise, is another matter entirely. However, that's not what you are talking about.
You seem to be mainly concerned about their wearing of the hijab. Why are you so concerned about it? Isn't it their choice?

Julia

Julia,the preaching part was directed at Rafa,it just sounded like he was.

Anyway,for some reason what I`m trying to say is not coming across,as I mean it. Julia,where I live we often come across muslims,before 9/11 you couldn`t tell that they were muslims. Looked exactly like you or me. Even new refugees who could hardly put a sentence together didn`t look all that different,I mean dress wise. I remember thinking at one point that this woman wasn`t quite fashionable because Croatia must be behind us in the fashion stakes. She always wore long skirt,she showed her arms,her hair,just the skirt was always long,so that was the best I could think,well it`s not as if Croatia is known for it`s fashion. : So you see what I mean about the myths that are presented about muslim dress? Having watched many documentaries it seems to me that this way of treating women is imposed not necessarily a choice. Of course there will always be people who are criminals at heart and lavish the power over other people but overall being muslim doesn`t strike me as being all that different. However after 9/11 this all seemed to change overnight,in the streets we seemed overwhemed by hijabs,even women driving 4 wheel drives with just their eyes showing for God`s sake. To me these women for some reason chose to make a political point,knowing that they always can go back to how they dressed before after all the fuss settled down.The other point is that maybe it`s political correctness gone wrong,I`m not sure but politicians,teachers ect started to defend this way of dressing. Started to segregate our society whilst telling us that it was so as not to discriminate agaisnt this section of the population,what all of a sudden? So the point I`m trying to make is that in their muslim countries women do behave like us,have the same aspirations as us,but if we let the ignorant few dictate something that isn`t true,then we are condemning ourselves as well as them to a lesser life,I hope that I`ve now made myself clear,I really don`t know how else to put it.
My underlying fear if you like is that if we allow these lies and myths to take root,and they are lies and myths,because even by looking up hijab on the internet you will find overwheming evidence that this is not required dress,that women are in fact equal to men in the Koran. We will somehow dimish our own right and freedoms.

visual · 18 August 2006

Just watching ,The way we were on channel 2.
I didn`t know that women were actually not allowed to be served in pubs,and this didn`t change until 1975,althought the protests againt this law started sometime in 1965. Now I see why governments are falling over themselves to facilitate segregation using muslims women as an excuse. I think these are the people who simply want to go back to the past.

Julia · 18 August 2006

visual said:
Just watching ,The way we were on channel 2.
I didn`t know that women were actually not allowed to be served in pubs,and this didn`t change until 1975,althought the protests againt this law started sometime in 1965. Now I see why governments are falling over themselves to facilitate segregation using muslims women as an excuse. I think these are the people who simply want to go back to the past.

Visual

You've lost me again with:

"Now I see why governments are falling over themselves to facilitate segregation....."

Are they?
Where?
I haven't noticed anything like that.

Julia

visual · 18 August 2006

Julia,
sorry I probably should`ve made it clear,that comment was almost tongue in cheek.I was actually looking something up and then became distracted by these women chained to a bar in queensland,and was sort of amused to think that the law had gone as far as to legislate if women could drink and where.

Apparently it was ok.for the husbands to run in and take the beer out to the wives who generally were waiting in the car.And to think this would`ve been in the mid sixties and early seventies

The last part of your post,
I was just referring to the women only hours at the pool,and now our council wants to also introduce men only hours so the muslim men can swim without the distraction of women!or the cafe owner who wants to make his cafe women only,so that muslim women can feel confortable to go there.

In queensland apparently it took 10 years for the protesters to change that law,yet these women only laws have been introduced ,it feels in a heart beat.

Have to go ,and find out what I was looking for before,uxc jumped about 20%for no reason.

Happy · 18 August 2006

visual said:
Julia,
I was just referring to the women only hours at the pool,and now our council wants to also introduce men only hours so the muslim men can swim without the distraction of women!or the cafe owner who wants to make his cafe women only,so that muslim women can feel confortable to go there.

Multiculturalism and religious tolerance allows antics to creep in, but we have women only gyms and they do not cause any negative publicity.

Maybe mosque should be bigger to accommodate all the religion motivated moves, this way minority will not be affecting majority so much.

But as I mentioned before, with minority birthrate, we better slowly get used to idea of being overcome one day.
Serbs in Kosovo got outnumbered and NATO helped to kick them out.

NettAssets · 18 August 2006

visual said:
Apparently it was ok.for the husbands to run in and take the beer out to the wives who generally were waiting in the car.And to think this would`ve been in the mid sixties and early seventies

I think you've forgotten the lounge bar.
Those amongst us that drank with our partners always used to be in there and go and get the girls drinks at the servery. The only place Women where frowned upon was in the front bar.But even there there were exceptions.
I am not for a moment condoning partitioning of Pubs again (back then after aboriginal drinking was allowed we had black and white bars as well) but get the facts right the ladies didn't have to stay home or in the car - they had their place reserved and were looked after.
John

visual · 18 August 2006

NettAssets said:
I think you've forgotten the lounge bar.
Those amongst us that drank with our partners always used to be in there and go and get the girls drinks at the servery. The only place Women where frowned upon was in the front bar.But even there there were exceptions.
I am not for a moment condoning partitioning of Pubs again (back then after aboriginal drinking was allowed we had black and white bars as well) but get the facts right the ladies didn't have to stay home or in the car - they had their place reserved and were looked after.
John

Nett,
actually I havent forgotten anything as this was something I actually did`nt know in the first place : ,by the way are you defending the fact women could`nt be in the same drinking place as the men?

In that program they also talked about the ladies lounge!yep there the ladies could go with the kids,shell some peas and do a spot of knitting.And you are right,there was lots of different partitions,still though imagine being so threathened by women that you`d go to the trouble of actually legislating against them doing stuff like socialising.

visual · 18 August 2006

Happy said:
but we have women only gyms and they do not cause any negative publicity.

Happy,the difference is that religion was not involved in the process making,and it was catering to women who perhaps did`nt want to be ogled by men,but the intention was never to isolate women in case men found them so exciting that they could just,oh I`m repeating myself now,anyway you know what I mean :

Happy · 18 August 2006

I can see the difference.

All of the sudden we are told that one sex primary school is better too.

Should I get suspicious or this has nothing to do with possibly undercover religiously motivated sudden flash of brilliance.

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