BCS - BrisConnections Unit Trusts

[chops_a_must]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Some suggestions for how to use this way to offload your Brisconnections shares are as follows:

1. Donate them to charity. Lots of charities have an off-market transfer form online that lets you transfer shares to a charity. Google it and see. As the transfer does need someone at the charity to sign the form and send it on it might not work 100% of the time. But if you systematically tried every charity you could find I'm sure you'd get someone agree to take on your 'donation' without realising the implications.

2. Donate them to a homeless person. Find a homeless person in your nearest large city and offer them a fist full of cash to sign your form. The homeless person benefits from getting your cash and have nothing to fear from the company debt collectors - because they have nothing to lose.

3. Go on an overseas trip to a poor country and offer a poor local a fist full of cash to sign the form. This is very similar to the above option.

4. Donate them to a person who doesn't exist. Make up a name and get a mate to sign for them. There is a precident where someone has transferred shares to their pet budgie, but it is probably illegal. link

Bahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

You don't think a homeless person already has quite enough stress without getting hassled by debt collectors?

Clearly not Julia!

Most of these people choose to be in the situation they are in, getting handouts and generally lazing about in parks in the morning, enjoying the morning sun.

As opposed to the typically droll existence most of these people live, being chased by macbank hired goons could prove to be a fun filled adventure that gives justification to the paranoid schizophrenic delusions most of these people have. The benefit being, it is just the thing they need to prove they aren't crazy.

 

[lesm]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

I doubt the information 'being available' is sufficient for it to be enforceable. I'm not a lawyer, but I recall a case where the seller of a house didn't tell the buyer that a major highway was to be built very near to the house. After buying the house, the buyer found this out and the sale was nullified by the court. The information being available to the public (at the planning office, fliers in the area etc) was insufficient to make the contract enforceable. Surely it's the same concept here?

If this goes to court it could be very interesting, as to how counsel will argue this from either side and what decisions will be made by the judiciary (or the jury decison if it were to be a jury trial). The latter may occur if it were to be brought to court as a 'class action', due to the number of potential shareholders involved.

Is the publication and the public availability of a PDS or other supportive announcements considered legally sufficient?
That will be a matter for the court to determine rather than a public forum or the media.

How much research and due diligence prior to the purchase of a share is considerered reasonable and sufficient?
Again, this may become a matter for the court to determine.

By foregoing professional advice, in any manner and form, the purchaser is effectively inferring that they have sufficient knowledge and experience to make a decison related to a share purchase in their own right, including understanding the relevant obligations, risks and consequences.

It will be interesting to watch this unfold, as time progresses.

 

[experttipps]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

article on Australian Shareholders Association's website.

http://www.asa.asn.au/ShareholderOpinion.asp?ID=SO202.xml

 

[cuttlefish]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

As opposed to the typically droll existence most of these people live, being chased by macbank hired goons could prove to be a fun filled adventure that gives justification to the paranoid schizophrenic delusions most of these people have. The benefit being, it is just the thing they need to prove they aren't crazy.

haha - interesting take on the situation - I can just see it.

"See, I told you, they're after me for a million bucks"

"Ahh yeah right Fred ... pull the other one ... who would extend a million bucks credit to someone who's never had more than $500 bucks to rub together?"

"But its true, they really are after me for a million bucks"

"yeah ok, have another swig of vino".



I used to run around the park near the domain at lunchtimes when I worked in the city, and there was this homeless bloke living in a cave. We'd jog past him and he'd look at us like we were insane as he sat in his cave, enjoying the sun, sipping his beer whilst looking out at his harbour views.

Yep - definitely a nutter we thought - as we sweated away running around in a circle for no clear reason, before heading off to our dingy flourescant lit caves to slog away on meaningless projects for some faceless business owner in a far off land.

 

[YELNATS]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Yep - definitely a nutter we thought - as we sweated away running around in a circle for no clear reason, before heading off to our dingy flourescant lit caves to slog away on meaningless projects for some faceless business owner in a far off land.

Clancy of the Domain? "While he(you) faced the round eternal of the cash-book and the journal" AB Paterson

 

[cuttlefish]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Clancy of the Domain? "While he(you) faced the round eternal of the cash-book and the journal" AB Paterson

Yep - very much so! (where a stingy ray of sunlight struggles feebly down between the houses tall ).

 

[Sunder]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

I doubt the information 'being available' is sufficient for it to be enforceable. I'm not a lawyer, but I recall a case where the seller of a house didn't tell the buyer that a major highway was to be built very near to the house. After buying the house, the buyer found this out and the sale was nullified by the court. The information being available to the public (at the planning office, fliers in the area etc) was insufficient to make the contract enforceable. Surely it's the same concept here?

Odd. A friend of mine worked on a case where a client bought a cafe, that was in a street where the street was due to be closed to pedestrian traffic for a few months for pavement repairs and other streetside upgrades.

He refused to take on the case, citing previous examples of "caveat emptor", and the likelihood that this case would fail.

The case was taken on by a smaller firm, and the buyer of the cafe lost, once again, the judge citing "caveat emptor".

 

[Sunder]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

There were no articles when I bought them as it is one thing I do like to lookup on Commsec.

You're cutting it damn fine on dates:

This was published Nov 14th.

http://www.comsec.com.au/public/news.aspx?id=1023

 

[rocket12]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

You're cutting it damn fine on dates:

This was published Nov 14th.

http://www.comsec.com.au/public/news.aspx?id=1023

Not sure what your point is. We were talking about the BCSCA news page. (attached) I wouldn't know where to find that link you have posted. Can you show me and everyone else what links you need to follow from the Commsec main page to find this link. I gather it isn't in the members research section of Commsec...

 

[Sunder]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Not sure what your point is. We were talking about the BCSCA news page. (attached) I wouldn't know where to find that link you have posted. Can you show me and everyone else what links you need to follow from the Commsec main page to find this link. I gather it isn't in the members research section of Commsec...

It's aged off by now, but for about two weeks, it was on the main login page, front and centre. (Where the red circle is)

The point is, you almost have to intentionally close your eyes to the fact that this is not a normal stock. Layer after layer after layer of "hints" that this is a partially paid security. They may not have been intuitive, but they were there.

The Comsec chart lists the security as $1 PD. I didn't know what that meant, but a quick google told me it stands for $1 paid. Since no other share says $1 paid, what does that imply? That more needs to be paid? Even if you couldn't find a result for it, would you buy a share not knowing what something described in it's title meant?

I know there are plenty of "trusts" that don't owe money, but why is a road builder a trust? Does that indicate something odd about their business? A quick look at investopedia says

"A fiduciary relationship in which one party, known as a trustor, gives another party, the trustee, the right to hold title to property or assets for the benefit of a third party, the beneficiary. "

Maybe that they're holding money in trust until it's needed? In which case, what are you investing in? A road builder? Or a fund raiser for a road builder? Did it matter to you at all? And if it didn't do you deserve to get burned?

There have been some very high profile partially paid securities. TLSCA for example. Even if it didn't click with you that "CA" means something special, considering the fact normal securites are 3 codes, wouldn't you at least stop to check what a 5 letter code meant?

Maybe I'm being a bit harsh here. I don't know. Perhaps hindsight is 20/20, where these things I'm pointing out were hard to see at the time. But I've always had the policy of never investing in something I don't understand - so when my stock scanners turned up all kinds of weird codes for instruments I never understood, I simply filtered out everything except standard equities.

The law has never seen ignorance as a reason to break a civil contract, unless there was intentional deception on the other party. Hell, even S10s, which are handed out like candy at Halloween, need you to prove that it was not only an honest, but REASONABLE mistake that you made. (A section 10 is where guilt is proven, but no conviction recorded because an honest and reasonable mistake has been made - usually on a minor infringement, where there is no counter party to hurt by providing the person an out. An example is a 50 zone with all the signs stolen or defaced. A reasonable person might make the honest mistake of driving at 60km/h, but a reasonable person would not assume a residential zone was 80km/h, despite the fact that the law says that any unmarked zones with no street lights is automatically 80)

Considering how much information is available about partially paid securities, and how many "hints" are available, I hardly see that too many judges are going to say this is a "reasonable" mistake, no matter how honest it was.

I think I'm gonna shut up about this now. There is no point arguing with someone who is stuck with the security. They're always going to feel hard done by. I have more sympathy for the MQG shareholders, as they are almost certain to have to front up the money for someone else's careless mistake, no matter how much that person feels like they were misled into taking that debt on.

<Disclosure. I do not hold, neither am I intending to hold either security>

 

[rocket12]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Do you seriously think that a couple of hints (not layer after layer of hints) is enough to inform people that they are purchasing a huge debt??..

Why in gods name does it take until you actually hit the buy button for you to only then be told in plain english these are contributing shares??

Your speeding analogy helps highlight this. A driver goes through those three main speed zones dozens of times every single time they get in the car. Even then they can make that honest mistake. But as soon as the authorities realize the signs have been removed would put them up asap so that people wouldn't keep speeding.

I've purchased hundreds of shares online and never come across one of these shares. I can only count 3 shares out of the thousands in the whole industrial sector that are contributing.

And as I have said before, yes I agree that I may have been a "little" niave for falling for this, but that pales compared to the naivety shown by the people who put this together. They know that the market is full of retail investors speeding through the 50kmh zones yet for some reason put up no signs at all.

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Do you seriously think that a couple of hints (not layer after layer of hints) is enough to inform people that they are purchasing a huge debt??..

Why in gods name does it take until you actually hit the buy button for you to only then be told in plain english these are contributing shares??

Your speeding analogy helps highlight this. A driver goes through those three main speed zones dozens of times every single time they get in the car. Even then they can make that honest mistake. But as soon as the authorities realize the signs have been removed would put them up asap so that people wouldn't keep speeding.

I've purchased hundreds of shares online and never come across one of these shares. I can only count 3 shares out of the thousands in the whole industrial sector that are contributing.

And as I have said before, yes I agree that I may have been a "little" niave for falling for this, but that pales compared to the naivety shown by the people who put this together. They know that the market is full of retail investors speeding through the 50kmh zones yet for some reason put up no signs at all.

Its a market like any other market. People get done over every day.

Why should the naive have protection.

Orphans can be widowed, its life. Get over it.

Caveat Emptor.

If they can't hack it they should be selling firewood door to door or else take up godbothering of a Sunday.

gg

 

[Macquack]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Get over it.

gg

I would not say to someone who got tricked/trapped into a $4 million debt to "get over it". They might turn violent.

GG, if this happened to your mother or father, you would not tell them to "get over it".

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

I would not say to someone who got tricked/trapped into a $4 million debt to "get over it". They might turn violent.

GG, if this happened to your mother or father, you would not tell them to "get over it".

The market is a dangerous place.

These folk clearly should not have bought this stock.

One cannot legislate to protect the naive in a dangerous place.

Would the holders of this stock have considered driving a Formula 1 car in a Grand Prix.

The market is a zero sum game, winners and losers.

There was ample, even exhaustive warning of the dangers inherent in buying BrisC. at these ridiculously low prices.

They will be a warning to others.

gg

 

[drsmith]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

.....if this happened to your mother or father, you would not tell them to "get over it".

It's certainly a somewhat more difficult situation to get over than say a traffic infringement.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

While I am largely a believer in Caveat Emptor there does need to be a better balance between investment complexity and the target investor than what this offered.

Complex financial structures in what should be basic share market investments is part of what has led the global economy to it's current situation.

 

[skc]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

I have more sympathy for the MQG shareholders, as they are almost certain to have to front up the money for someone else's careless mistake, no matter how much that person feels like they were misled into taking that debt on.

I wouldn't few too bad for MQG... they made a huge mistake in thinking that the bull market will last forever and borrowing to pay dividend during construction is a viable model. They could have easily not take on the underwriter role, or offload/reinsure that risk, but I guess they are too proud and wanted the extra fee too much. Considering this was floated after the subprime cirisis, I say MQG fully deserve to pay up.

 

[mazzatelli1000]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Do you seriously think that a couple of hints (not layer after layer of hints) is enough to inform people that they are purchasing a huge debt??..

Why in gods name does it take until you actually hit the buy button for you to only then be told in plain english these are contributing shares??

Your speeding analogy helps highlight this. A driver goes through those three main speed zones dozens of times every single time they get in the car. Even then they can make that honest mistake. But as soon as the authorities realize the signs have been removed would put them up asap so that people wouldn't keep speeding.

I've purchased hundreds of shares online and never come across one of these shares. I can only count 3 shares out of the thousands in the whole industrial sector that are contributing.

And as I have said before, yes I agree that I may have been a "little" niave for falling for this, but that pales compared to the naivety shown by the people who put this together. They know that the market is full of retail investors speeding through the 50kmh zones yet for some reason put up no signs at all.

Well sitting on the fence I believe both sides are to be at blame here.
On one side they have released the bare minimum of information for the investor to be aware of their obligations, but not doing enough to highlight how large an obligation it is.

On the other hand the investor, seeing 5 letter codes and various other terminolgy that would have differed from the norm, fail to take reasonable action to further investigate.

This is a general view and I cannot know how much actual research you put in blah blah blah

But I do genuinely hope you come out of this okay!!!!

Lessons for the future

 

[mazzatelli1000]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Orphans can be widowed, its life. Get over it.

gg

Thats quite harsh

I hope we never cross paths in life, because I wont show you any mercy

 

[rocket12]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

The market is a dangerous place.

These folk clearly should not have bought this stock.

One cannot legislate to protect the naive in a dangerous place.

Would the holders of this stock have considered driving a Formula 1 car in a Grand Prix.

The market is a zero sum game, winners and losers.

There was ample, even exhaustive warning of the dangers inherent in buying BrisC. at these ridiculously low prices.

They will be a warning to others.

gg

Hehe, my wife makes a good point. It seems the peeps who know about the 5 letter code are also the ones not blessed with much logic or sense of whats right and wrong.

I'd give up on the car analogies guys. You sound like one of thes market types who thinks that what they do is beyod normal beings. I don't see millions of mums and dads trying to drive an F1 car in a grand prix, cause last I checked you need quite a few qualifications to do so, but I do see millions of mums and dads buying shares and making money doing it. These same mums and dads have been tricked into a lifetime of debt due to meterial non-disclosure.

Tell me if you can agree that it would be better to inform people via plain text before they hit the buy button rather than after. Although I have a feeling you keep things just as they are...

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Hehe, my wife makes a good point. It seems the peeps who know about the 5 letter code are also the ones not blessed with much logic or sense of whats right and wrong.

I'd give up on the car analogies guys. You sound like one of thes market types who thinks that what they do is beyod normal beings. I don't see millions of mums and dads trying to drive an F1 car in a grand prix, cause last I checked you need quite a few qualifications to do so, but I do see millions of mums and dads buying shares and making money doing it. These same mums and dads have been tricked into a lifetime of debt due to meterial non-disclosure.

Tell me if you can agree that it would be better to inform people via plain text before they hit the buy button rather than after. Although I have a feeling you keep things just as they are...

On the face of it , it appears reasonable, let these mums and dads as you call them know via email of the dangers.

It then spreads.

An announcement is made as they click the buy button. Should they be allowed buy or warned of the announcement. ??

The rest of us have to put up with mountains of emails warning us of what we already know.

Best leave it as it is.

They shouldn't be in the market if they don't understand or read the dangers inherent in trading.

They'll be more careful next time.

gg