BCS - BrisConnections Unit Trusts

TheAbyss · 30 January 2009

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

brty said:
Sunder,

You did not answer the question about any other way anywhere, where you could accumulate this type of debt whilst being uninformed and unable to pay.(and become indebted with a couple of clicks of a mouse).

Perhaps the reason is that there is nothing else, which makes this situation unique.

brty

With a few clicks of a mouse i can spend $1000 and owe anywhere from $1000 to $20,000 very quickly. Its called a margin loan but i do pay attention to what i am buying before i take that risk. There are a multitude of vehicles you can lose a lot more than your cash balance. There were some links to a youtube video a while back of a guy losing his entire net worth because he took a position and forgot the market was open on a holiday or something. Either way noone can afford to lose anything when it is so difficult to obtain in the first place.

Not taking sides just pointing out that there are many ways to lose money where money is changing hands. Its been going on for centuries. This is just another way to lose money or make money depending when buy or sell something.

For every tale of woe on this thread there is a very happy camper who offloaded their BCSCA shares. They did lose money also but they are happy.

My advice to those who were left without a chair when the music stopped is is to have faith in the Qld Govt who will not want to be left red faced on this one with an election due not far off the 2nd tranche.

Lot of stress for holders but worrying never fixed anything. You have done all that can be done so you can only wait. The rest of the BS being sprouted is time filler until someone at the helm of govt or corporate business with a lot more to lose than any individual steps up and makes a decision.

shaunQ · 30 January 2009

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

TheAbyss said:
With a few clicks of a mouse i can spend $1000 and owe anywhere from $1000 to $20,000 very quickly. Its called a margin loan but i do pay attention to what i am buying before i take that risk. There are a multitude of vehicles you can lose a lot more than your cash balance. There were some links to a youtube video a while back of a guy losing his entire net worth because he took a position and forgot the market was open on a holiday or something. Either way noone can afford to lose anything when it is so difficult to obtain in the first place.

Not taking sides just pointing out that there are many ways to lose money where money is changing hands. Its been going on for centuries. This is just another way to lose money or make money depending when buy or sell something

Absolutely, I agree people lose money every day, but when I click on the Margin Loan link in Commsec it just tells me about it. I need to apply. If you put a position on, you are using your own funds and can only lose what you have. You can't short or use CFD's without applying - I can't do any of these automatically.

I haven't been caught up in this, not because of knowledge just because I luckily started trading higher cap stocks. But I can see the ridiculousness of it. The hundreds of books on "Penny stocks" marketed - don't mention STAY AWAY FROM 5 LETTER stocks.

Anyway, just wanted to argue that point again..

drsmith · 31 January 2009

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Calliope said:
And you have:headshake

Obviously we are of different generations. Once it was considered healthy for people to accept responsibility for their own actions. In this new "enlightened' age someone who gets into trouble as a result of their own ill-considered actions is regarded as a victim to be treated with sympathy.

And, of course, if you have a victim you must have a villain. In this case Macquarie makes a perfect villain.

And it doesn't matter how many warning signs are posted. Some people will ignore them. You see them on the beach every day.

Angels Macquarie ain't.

I find it hard to have sympathy for those who have invested in this without understanding the full implications but at the same time, how does just having a go at someone who has made a poor investment decision advance the discussion ?

brty · 31 January 2009

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

TheAbyss,

With a few clicks of a mouse i can spend $1000 and owe anywhere from $1000 to $20,000 very quickly. Its called a margin loan

Please tell me where you can margin up to $20,000 wit only $1000 of your own funds?? I don't believe you can. With 75% margin it is $3000 of theirs to $1000 of yours.

Where this is different is that a spend of $1000 racks up a debt of $2,000,000.
It is vastly different to the margin loan. In the margin loan situation, as soon as you go through your buffer, they will sell you up so that they limit their losses, plus you would have signed documentation that puts your other assets at risk if the worst happens.

brty

Sunder · 31 January 2009

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

We've discussed this before.

Some people think the world is their rubberised play ground. A wrong move and the worst should just be a skinned knee.

Others think they're playing frogger. One wrong move and it's game over.

How can I convince people that the world isn't fair? That the world isn't safe? I obviously can't. You can rack up far more than $1m of debt for less than $500. Go drive an unregistered car and hit someone. You can have much more serious consequences without even reading a thing or clicking any mouse buttons at all - just ignore some "Caution cliff edge eroding" signs.

Even so, that doesn't matter. Look at the way most of these people respond when they find themselves in a consequence of their own making. "Let's see if I can decieve someone else into taking these" "Let's see if I can use loop holes in the law to make it someone else's problem" "There is no question of morality here because it's about saving me and my family".

These are the same people with the same mentality who fall off the Epping Road bridge while 4 times over the limit, then sue the council for having too low a fence (Yes that really happened) It's not my fault, someone has to pay. If I can use the law fine. If I can't I'll still get someone to pay

Well, the raw, poisonous reality of the world is that it isn't safe, and our society has decided that it is better to have some freedoms and allow a few hundred out of the 21 million in this country suffer for their own foolishness, than restrict the other sensible 21 million.

I know this has fallen on deaf ears, but it has to be said.

ROE · 31 January 2009

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

With a few clicks of a mouse i can spend $1000 and owe anywhere from $1000 to $20,000 very quickly. Its called a margin loan

It's a classic case of buying stuff you don't understand and rule number #1 of investment is you got to know what you are getting into.

You can blame everyone but at the end of the day it's your money and it's your responsibilities and having said that I don't wish ill fate on anyone and wish them luck finding a solution.

shaunQ · 31 January 2009

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Sunder said:
We've discussed this before.

Some people think the world is their rubberised play ground. A wrong move and the worst should just be a skinned knee.

Others think they're playing frogger. One wrong move and it's game over.

How can I convince people that the world isn't fair? That the world isn't safe? I obviously can't. You can rack up far more than $1m of debt for less than $500. Go drive an unregistered car and hit someone. You can have much more serious consequences without even reading a thing or clicking any mouse buttons at all - just ignore some "Caution cliff edge eroding" signs.

Even so, that doesn't matter. Look at the way most of these people respond when they find themselves in a consequence of their own making. "Let's see if I can decieve someone else into taking these" "Let's see if I can use loop holes in the law to make it someone else's problem" "There is no question of morality here because it's about saving me and my family".

These are the same people with the same mentality who fall off the Epping Road bridge while 4 times over the limit, then sue the council for having too low a fence (Yes that really happened) It's not my fault, someone has to pay. If I can use the law fine. If I can't I'll still get someone to pay

Well, the raw, poisonous reality of the world is that it isn't safe, and our society has decided that it is better to have some freedoms and allow a few hundred out of the 21 million in this country suffer for their own foolishness, than restrict the other sensible 21 million.

I know this has fallen on deaf ears, but it has to be said.

That is the most illogical, irrelevant and ignorant response I have ever heard. Even more so than your inspiring Kidney analogy.

"Let's see if I can decieve someone else into taking these" "Let's see if I can use loop holes in the law to make it someone else's problem" "There is no question of morality here because it's about saving me and my family".

No-one involved said that. You disgust me with your attitude, and as always making up stories and quotes to suit your own judgmental arguments..

Go drive an unregistered car... brilliant!!!!! Although thats obviously illegal. A better analogy would be being charged $2 million for a taxi ride, but not being told when you get in.

Same people who jump over fences?... ah... yeah if they had a big carnival, with an entrance saying "Free Bungi Jumping" then tie a rope around your head and throw you off.

If you want to come up with some sort of relevant, intelligent analogy please do.... using that caring religious, non-judgmental up bringing of course.. cough.

Keep throwing those stones buddy.

Calliope · 31 January 2009

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Sunder said:
How can I convince people that the world isn't fair? That the world isn't safe? I obviously can't. You can rack up far more than $1m of debt for less than $500. Go drive an unregistered car and hit someone. You can have much more serious consequences without even reading a thing or clicking any mouse buttons at all - just ignore some "Caution cliff edge eroding" signs.

Even so, that doesn't matter. Look at the way most of these people respond when they find themselves in a consequence of their own making. "Let's see if I can decieve someone else into taking these" "Let's see if I can use loop holes in the law to make it someone else's problem" "There is no question of morality here because it's about saving me and my family".

These are the same people with the same mentality who fall off the Epping Road bridge while 4 times over the limit, then sue the council for having too low a fence (Yes that really happened) It's not my fault, someone has to pay. If I can use the law fine. If I can't I'll still get someone to pay

Well, the raw, poisonous reality of the world is that it isn't safe, and our society has decided that it is better to have some freedoms and allow a few hundred out of the 21 million in this country suffer for their own foolishness, than restrict the other sensible 21 million.

I know this has fallen on deaf ears, but it has to be said.

As usual Sunder you have attempted to inject some commonsense into the argument. When I tried to do the same (but not so well ) I was abused in no uncertain terms;

I was called a wanker.

I was accused of beating somebody when they are down, of gloating and kicking sand in peoples faces. I was advised to keep off the thread.

And all because I had pointed out the obvious. Some people prefer to keep their heads in the sand rather than face up to the truth. While there are some on this thread who are genuinely concerned about the plight of the foolish investors, this concern doesn't do them any favours. Just the opposite. It reinforces their view that they are victims.

Others are using the thread for political point scoring against the capitalism bogey.

All the rules, regulations and laws that the nanny state can devise can't protect a fool from himself, but as you say, it will just restrict the vast majority from going about their business.

I see you have already attracted Shaun's biased juvenile ranting.

Prospector · 31 January 2009

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Calliope said:
I was accused of beating somebody when they are down, of gloating and kicking sand in peoples faces. I was advised to keep off the thread..

You are very welcome to stay on the thread Calliope but given the header of this topic reads "Financial Ruin" then once again, repeatedly telling people how stupid they have been is hardly a quality contribution. Face up to the truth? They know what the truth is - they have to pay a ****e load of money in April for a purchase that only cost them $500.

They did nothing illegal, they did not drink drive, they did not drive an unregistered car, so comparing their action in purchasing these options with an illegal action is actually quite offensive.

But hey, why should I care, I might just post again and tell them how stupid they were! Because I am much cleverer than they are when it comes to such things.

Have you never, ever done something that was even just a tad impulsive and regretted it later and maybe even thought, phew, I was lucky I got out of that one? No? You are obviously a much better person than most then.

Calliope · 31 January 2009

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Prospector said:
Have you never, ever done something that was even just a tad impulsive and regretted it later and maybe even thought, phew, I was lucky I got out of that one? No? You are obviously a much better person than most then.

I lost so much of my retirement fund in the MFS Premium Income Fund debacle that would make T/m's debt look like chicken feed. It was certainly money I could not afford to lose. Too many eggs in one basket.

But as the words of the song go, I had no choice but to "pick myself up, dust myself off and start all over again."

Prospector · 31 January 2009

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Calliope said:
I lost so much of my retirement fund in the MFS Premium Income Fund debacle that would make T/m's debt look like chicken feed. It was certainly money I could not afford to lose. Too many eggs in one basket.

But as the words of the song go, I had no choice but to "pick myself up, dust myself off and start all over again."

Ah yes, damn MFS, I too lost bundles of cash from my Super Fund through MFS, and also ZFX, both of which were/are the result of numerous factors including negligence from both Boards and lack of disclosure. And sure, maybe I should have sold earlier. The difference though, is that I (we) only lost the cash we had invested (and which had grown) and I am sure BSCSA options holders would be in heaven if that was all they had lost - the money they put in. But they have, for whatever reason, not only lost that, but they have this humungous debt to pay. If that outstanding liability wasnt made clear through their broker, when other brokers saw fit to do so, then the issue of disclosure is certainly important.

And the amount they paid - $500 - where on earth can spending $500 buy you that much debt?

grace · 31 January 2009

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

If I was to put a buy order in for say $5,000,000 BHP shares, I'm sure my online broker account would not let me do it. Have not tried it, but I'm sure I would not have enough collateral to make such a purchase. I remember when I first started building up my portfolio, commsec wouldn't let me put in additional buy orders until my previous buys had been cleared.

I guess when one orders these partly paid shares, a similar thing should happen, to check that you have enough collateral to make such a purchase.

Some time back when I first started mucking around with some share trading, I used to trade the partly paid Telstra shares. These were actually my first ever short-term trades. I made quite a few profitable trades, then they went down and never really came back. I got stuck with them and had to pay up. I had the money though, and always had it in the back of my mind what was owing. It was very public knowledge that what I was trading were partly paid shares.

Whilst I sympathise with those who are stressed because of this, we have all made mistakes. I employed someone once who was very deceitful. This cost me a very large 6 digit sum, because of the outcomes that came from that employment. This persons sole ambition was to destroy me (this person had a mental illness). That did hurt, but one has to move on. Hopefully I'll never repeat that mistake again.

dirty_harry · 31 January 2009

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

grace said:
If I was to put a buy order in for say $5,000,000 BHP shares, I'm sure my online broker account would not let me do it. Have not tried it, but I'm sure I would not have enough collateral to make such a purchase. I remember when I first started building up my portfolio, commsec wouldn't let me put in additional buy orders until my previous buys had been cleared.

I guess when one orders these partly paid shares, a similar thing should happen, to check that you have enough collateral to make such a purchase.

This is a really good point.
I expect the difference is that online brokers nned to protect their own liabilities in the case of share purchases, but are not interested in the liabilites of others with respect to BrisConnect as it is not their problem.

shaunQ · 31 January 2009

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

grace said:
If I was to put a buy order in for say $5,000,000 BHP shares, I'm sure my online broker account would not let me do it. Have not tried it,

Actually, you should try it.. Commsec will put it through happily, off the record up to 25K or so. Previously they stated in their terms and conditions they provided automatic credit of 25K, now it just says an "amount" of automatic credit is provided. But can guarantee you it would probably still be around the 25K mark.

It only matters if you go past T2. So really, they only risk 2 days market movement on the 25K.

Sunder · 1 February 2009

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

shaunQ said:
"There is no question of morality here because it's about saving me and my family".

No-one involved said that.

shaunQ said:
its immoral? No its not. Its survival. Doing what you need to do to protect yourself or your family is not and can never be immoral, because the principal is just. Its like stealing a loaf of bread to feed your family.

How convenient "you're not involved". You're an advocate of stealing and breaking the law to save your family, because it's not unjust, but "no-one involved said that". So I conceed to you the literal truth, but it's quite clear you love to twist the truth to suit your argument.

I could continue to shred apart every half truth and twisted reality you use but you've shown to us clearly your character, and I hardly feel it's necessary any more. Considering more than half your last post was personal provocation and added nothing to the debate, I feel I would only be lowering myself to your level to even consider answering any more of your accusations.

shaunQ · 1 February 2009

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Sunder said:
How convenient "you're not involved". You're an advocate of stealing and breaking the law to save your family, because it's not unjust, but "no-one involved said that". So I conceed to you the literal truth, but it's quite clear you love to twist the truth to suit your argument.

Yes, that is right and it was deliberate as you were continually talking down the character of the Brisconnections shareholders through generalisations, when really most statements were made by people not "involved"... like myself.

And yes, I stand by my statement. The reference was actually from the bible. But if my family was starving and I had the opportunity to steal bread from a local store or rich person, I'd take it. No second thoughts. No concern of morality. I'm sure, though, if you caught me, you'd have me strung and quartered, but I would die the better man.

I am happy, as I'm sure others are, to stop this conversation. We have indeed adding nothing useful. Apologies to all.

shaunQ · 1 February 2009

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

In other news - to try and put this back on topic...

Airport Link human resource manager Brian Connell said 500 workers would be recruited in February for the BrisConnections project building the northern busway tunnel and upgrading the airport roundabout. The project needs 1500 workers, with just 50 vacancies filled so far. "We have been absolutely swamped (with applications), which is a good position to be in," Connell said.

http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,24986106-3102,00.html

dogby · 2 February 2009

MAFCA - the next BCSCA

MAFCA, currently trading at 1 cent. Previously it has traded much higher.

Those interested in picking it up as a speculative punt may not realise immediately that there is a 40cents installment per share to be made in 2011.

If you picked up 500,000 shares for $5000, you'd be up for $200,000 in 2011.

Similar - thought not quite as leveraged, situation as BCSCA.

Enzyme · 2 February 2009

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Someone just brought 1,000,000 Briscon shares.

$1,000 for a $2 million debt.

Julia · 2 February 2009

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

This is surprising indeed and begs the question that the current BCSCA shareholders do in fact have their shares listed for sale?

Interesting that some sellers are even hoping to get more than the $.001
for their shares.

BCS - BrisConnections Unit Trusts

TheAbyss

shaunQ

drsmith

brty

Sunder

ROE

shaunQ

Calliope

Prospector

Not a scaredy cat anymore

Calliope

Prospector

Not a scaredy cat anymore

grace

dirty_harry

shaunQ

Sunder

shaunQ

shaunQ

dogby

Enzyme

Julia

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BCS - BrisConnections Unit Trusts

Not a scaredy cat anymore

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