BCS - BrisConnections Unit Trusts

chops_a_must · 2 January 2009

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

rocket12 said:
And yes being placed in a 189 page PDS to me and any reasonable persons idea of obscure. And yes being placed in amongst 50 announcements and not on any of the main 12 research pages is my and any reasonable persons idea of obscure.

Lol.

rocket12 · 2 January 2009

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

sinner said:
Maybe you should use your strategy of trading high debt companies for a "killing" and instead of seeking redemption from your debt, use the "killings" to pay your liability

Hehe, I shouldn't have said "killings" cause I haven't sold them yet... Anyway as I said earlier I knew that this stock (brisc) was very high risk that's why I only bought 2k worth, just a little gamble I was happy to lose.

I can understand how people who spend hours or days going through a stock before buying would think it's bizarre to buy a stock with a more limited time frame of research. We are all different, I dont think someone is anal for taking more time than I do, nor would I expect them to think I am a fool for doing things quicker. These werent long term investments, some here seem to think thats a crime.

thermalmonster · 2 January 2009

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

When you default on the first installment can they bankrupt you for the whole liability or only the 1st installment.

I cant see how they can do you for both because you may have been able to sell your shares before the 2nd installment is due

mazzatelli1000 · 2 January 2009

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

chops_a_must said:
Lol.

I wonder what PDS stands for then?

thermalmonster · 2 January 2009

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Too true, I only bought them cos im working for the contractor whos building the project.
The Ironic thing is I may well end up working on it.
I would be intrested to know how many other employees bought them

rocket12 · 2 January 2009

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

mazzatelli1000 said:
I wonder what PDS stands for then?

Look at it from the point of view of someone who had no idea that contributing shares even exist. You buy a small parcel of shares do you think many people are going to read through a 189 page document.

Calliope · 2 January 2009

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

cuttlefish said:
Thats hilarious, you can't be serious - the underwriters chose to underwrite this dud - they were always going to have to foot the bill

I said the underwriter's shareholders. But why let accuracy spoil your nitpicking comments.

chops_a_must · 2 January 2009

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

mazzatelli1000 said:
I wonder what PDS stands for then?

Yes how dare they hide obligations and descriptions of a product there.

rocket12 said:
Look at it from the point of view of someone who had no idea that contributing shares even exist. You buy a small parcel of shares do you think many people are going to read through a 189 page document.

Yes. I expect you would. And if you aren't very aware or knowledgeable of what you are investing in, even more reason.

Currently I'm investigating debt securities to purchase. The first thing I look for is the PDS. I've done exactly the same with 4 letter codes, when I was much closer to a complete noob than now.

As long as the PDS is public, and available via commsex and the ASX etc. they have no case to answer, and you are absolutely kidding yourself thinking you are going to get anywhere.

I think you will be laughed at if you admit to not reading the PDS. Like you are here.

mazzatelli1000 · 2 January 2009

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

rocket12 said:
Look at it from the point of view of someone who had no idea that contributing shares even exist. You buy a small parcel of shares do you think many people are going to read through a 189 page document.

Look, the courts will expect you to at least glance through it

Here is ASIC's guidelines on what should be disclosed in a PDS
http://www.asic.gov.au/asic/asic.nsf/byheadline/IR+04-71+ASIC+issues+guidance+on+PDS+disclosure?openDocument

Maybe there is something in there you could pin them with

rocket12 · 2 January 2009

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

chops_a_must said:
Yes how dare they hide obligations and descriptions of a product there.

Yes. I expect you would. And if you aren't very aware or knowledgeable of what you are investing in, even more reason.

Currently I'm investigating debt securities to purchase. The first thing I look for is the PDS. I've done exactly the same with 4 letter codes, when I was much closer to a complete noob than now.

As long as the PDS is public, and available via commsex and the ASX etc. they have no case to answer, and you are absolutely kidding yourself thinking you are going to get anywhere.

I think you will be laughed at if you admit to not reading the PDS. Like you are here.

Excuse my ignorance, but are debt securities like shares that can be bought on the stock market?

cuttlefish · 2 January 2009

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Calliope said:
I said the underwriter's shareholders. But why let accuracy spoil your nitpicking comments.

Thats my point - the underwriters shareholders would have suffered regardless. The underwriters were always going to have to foot the bill because there were no genuine takers for the stock. Thus the shareholders in the underwriters were always going to suffer. They are no more the victims than they were ever going to be as a result of this.

mazzatelli1000 · 2 January 2009

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

rocket12 said:
Excuse my ignorance, but are debt securities like shares that can be bought on the stock market?

Bonds (govt, corporate)etc can be traded on the stock market
They all have PDS, that you should read before you trade them

Julia · 2 January 2009

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

cuttlefish said:
Thats my point - the underwriters shareholders would have suffered regardless. The underwriters were always going to have to foot the bill because there were no genuine takers for the stock. Thus the shareholders in the underwriters were always going to suffer. They are no more the victims than they were ever going to be as a result of this.

I don't think that's quite accurate. I understand the IPO was fully subscribed. That doesn't indicate any suffering on the part of MQG shareholders.

Someone else on this thread has asked why the SP tanked as it did.
I've seen no answer. Heard there was initially a suggestion that the yield would be 14% and later this was adjusted lower, sending the SP on the quick journey down. But I don't know if that's true or not.

Rocket, we know you used Comsec as the broker for this transaction.
Thermalmonster, which broker did you use?

Btw to say that the details of the share were buried deeply in the PDS is not accurate either. The PDS has the cover page, and then on the very next page there is a very clear and full description of all the details.

Rocket and Thermalmonster: now that you have had this experience, have you worked through all of the Education section on the ASX website?
Do you think there could be other aspects of the market about which you are unaware?
Have you read the PDS of any further shares you have bought or intend to buy?

rocket12 · 2 January 2009

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

mazzatelli1000 said:
Bonds (govt, corporate)etc can be traded on the stock market
They all have PDS, that you should read before you trade them

Are they listed in the all industrials in the newspapers like Brisconnections is? that can be found and traded by any retail investor? I may be wrong but all I could find in the all industrials is shares and options.

thermalmonster · 2 January 2009

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Julia
Mine were bought from Comsec in october for 0.037.
I have no intention of investing in the Australian market ever again.

At least back home the FTSE arent allowed to list such comodities

chops_a_must · 2 January 2009

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

rocket12 said:
Are they listed in the all industrials in the newspapers like Brisconnections is? that can be found and traded by any retail investor? I may be wrong but all I could find in the all industrials is shares and options.

As far as I can tell, yes.

Lets me proceed to the buy stage on commsex.

thermalmonster said:
Julia
Mine were bought from Comsec in october for 0.037.
I have no intention of investing in the Australian market ever again.

At least back home the FTSE arent allowed to list such comodities

Don't you think it is odd that you just assume things are the same here as back "home"?

Would it strike you as arrogant at all if someone was to do the same in reverse?

We are after all, not your colony.

sails · 2 January 2009

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

I think one of the problems here is that there is no required education or reading before opening an online brokerage account.

Seems like options and warrants (possibly futures?) have booklets that one is required to read together with signing special documentation before being allowed to trade those derivatives.

Without a required level of education, we all come to the share market with whatever we may have learnt along the way. It appears judgements are being made based on what we assume other people should have known.

The reality is that there will always be a steady stream of new traders - all with different levels of knowledge and anyone without much knowledge can simply open an online account and start trading provided they have the mimumum required funds and are of the minimum age.

Newcomers with small trading accounts are often attracted to low priced shares and so this situation is like a gaping hole waiting for another uneducated trader to fall in.

I still reckon that a warning prior to or at the latest at the point of purchase (as James Austin has already pointed out) would be a good start as a safety net on these uncommon types of securities with future liabilities to help prevent further accidents.

thermalmonster · 2 January 2009

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

I never invested at home either, just checked it out. I was looking to see if something similar had ever happened in uk in order for them to regulate the sale of them more strictly.

There is no need to be patronising, I am fully aware I am in a different country.

steve999 · 2 January 2009

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Calliope said:
I said the underwriter's shareholders. But why let accuracy spoil your nitpicking comments.

So what, those shareholders also knew what they were investing in.

thermalmonster · 2 January 2009

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Absolutely Sails,

I only had $500 to chuck in, (in retrospect I wish I had put it on a horse)
My firm are the contractors, and I can get 13,500 shares in a Toll Road. Bargain!!

I consider myself fortunate that I didnt buy more when the price dropped further. Luckily I recieved the share certificate that said $1.00 paid $2.00 unpaid before i pressed the proceed button for a second time!!

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