BCS - BrisConnections Unit Trusts

[mazzatelli1000]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

In my view the counterparty is the seller of the stock on the secondary market (the facilitator of that secondary market being the ASX).

On the ASX the seller of the stock is theoretically anonymous (it probably can be technically traced but from a legal standpoint its an arms length, anonymous transaction). Its unlikely anybody would be able to pursue the counterparty directly and it would set a very scary precedent if achieved.

I'm still of the viewpoint that the facilitator of the market should have a responsibility to ensure that the market has adequate protection for investors from taking on undue risk, but thats my opinion only and I don't know what legislation there is to regulate the ASX's 'regulation of itself'.

Cuttlefish
If your view is taken that ASX is responsible, then any possible problems means that ASX will always have its neck on the line for litiagtion etc., probably not a realistic position that they will take.

I agree with you that there should be more protection, but for the process to work investors also need to do their bit and at least do some research.

Some of the guys here state they didn't even have a look at the PDS, which certainly does their arguments no favours

Very very tricky situation.

 

[rocket12]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

So you advocate the use of deception and possibly acting in a way that is illegal?



And you support it.

Gives us some idea of where your senses of ethics may lie.


Moral high ground battle succesfully lost.

I actually supported a couple of his choices as well, nothing dodgy though I just need a holiday...

 

[rocket12]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Cuttlefish
If your view is taken that ASX is responsible, then any possible problems means that ASX will always have its neck on the line for litiagtion etc., probably not a realistic position that they will take.

I agree with you that there should be more protection, but for the process to work investors also need to do their bit and at least do some research.

Some of the guys here state they didn't even have a look, which certainly does their arguments no favours

Very very tricky situation.

I never said I didn't look, I stated right from the word go in this thread that I looked through every research page on Commsec including the announcements page but didnt look through all of the announcements. It all looked fine to me so I made my choice to buy. No I didn't search for the PDS, but as the ASA have stated this info should be in flashing lights on the buy page, not hidden in a PDS or hidden deep in a sublink in an announcements page.

 

[Calliope]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

You took 5 minutes to investigate something that you were actually looking for. You do understand that we weren't looking for this, as we didn't know that you had to go investigating through every sublink on the announcements page looking for this sting in the tail that we didn't even know existed.

When I bought the share I looked through every research page checking out the fundamentals and it all looked fine to me. The chart was ordinary, but so was the chart of plenty of others that I have bought that have recovered.

Ps I have said right from the start that I looked through every single research page before buying, and admitted right from the start that I didn't go through every single announcement. As the ASA have said this should be highlited on the buy page in flashing lights not hidden deep in the announcements page.

Lesm

There's your answer. This guy is as thick as two bricks, and as slippery as an eel. For his tiny brokerage fee he wants flashing lights.

 

[cuttlefish]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

I actually supported a couple of his choices as well, nothing dodgy though I just need a holiday...

The steps advocated by GG of hiding your tracks by not speaking to an accountant and changing name by deed poll are highly unethical at best, probably blatantly illegal at worst (I'm not a lawyer and so don't know) and would also create a whole mass of new problems for anybody that actually tries it - including possible prosecution and jail time. I certainly wouldn't be advocating anyone go down that path.

If its not possible to tackle it in a way that is legal then the people in the situation will just have to face the music - sure do whatever is legal to protect assets where possible - but at the end of the day it needs to be treated like being a car accident victim or some other incident beyond ones control.

The best way in my view to deal with this is to accept that there was a mistake made, that there is no point in blaming oneself or anybody else around, that the consequences are going to be extremely unpleasant, that there will be a tough period ahead, but that beyond it, in spite of it all, life will go on and it will be possible to be happy and prosperous again one day.

Not everybody will be sympathetic - ignore the ones that aren't and accept the support and help from those that are, and return the favour when the opportunity arises.

 

[cuttlefish]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

and as slippery as an eel.

Seems like a rather hypocritical comment from someone that supports the idea of leaving no paper trail and changing ones name to hide assets as a way of dealing with the situation.

 

[Prospector]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

For his tiny brokerage fee he wants flashing lights.

Why did NAB and ETrade think it necessary to advise people just prior to purchase that there was a $2 per share future liability, but Comsec didnt. Oh yeah, and we both pay the same tiny brokerage fee btw.

This guy is as thick as two bricks

And that is just plain nasty.

 

[mazzatelli1000]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

I never said I didn't look, I stated right from the word go in this thread that I looked through every research page on Commsec including the announcements page but didnt look through all of the announcements. It all looked fine to me so I made my choice to buy. No I didn't search for the PDS, but as the ASA have stated this info should be in flashing lights on the buy page, not hidden in a PDS or hidden deep in a sublink in an announcements page.

As you state the ASA states (any many on this forum agree) that the warnings should be there, but what I am trying to nail here is whether this should is a "legal and/or regulatory" requirement. If not then your in a tight situation to get out of this obligation. Your argument that they should do this and that will be invalid.

I do however hope you get out of this, as I think you will.

 

[Judd]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

rocket12 & Prospector, thanks for clarifying how some came to be embroiled in this matter. I hadn't considered that one would look through a newspaper to do some bottom fishing or take on board that your employer is undertaking the project.

Placing aside the rights and wrongs of individuals, there are some interesting aspects.

First, the ASX conducts a secondary market. It does not generate floats of companies but regulates (ha,ha) them after they are listed

http://www.asx.com.au/supervision/supervisory_role/index.htm

So, from that it apparently does not have legal responsibility for actual IPO's and the PDS. BCS published the PDS - which is apparently the responsibility of ASIC to vet to ensure that all relevant facts are included in that document but the ASX has an initial role.

http://www.asx.com.au/professionals/listing/steps/prospectus.htm

The PDS is sent out to the investors who wish to participate in the float as founding investors.

However, a PDS is not required once the company is listed on the secondary market. Imagine the chaos if BHP or NAB had to send out a PDS every time someone bought their shares before the trade was settled.

The stockbroker is the third party which between the seller of shares and the buyer of the same. But there are two types: Full-service who can offer advice or non-advisory which have very much cheaper rates and are not responsible for your purchase decisions. Generally Commsec is in the latter class.

http://www.asx.com.au/resources/brokers/index.htm

Basically, it doesn't seem that anybody who bought BCSCA through Commsec, has any recourse to Brisbaneconnections, the ASX or Commsec for making such a bad decision irrespective of the very adverse financial impact which may ensue.

However, I am sure that practicing lawyers will have a field day and gather a fist full of fees and I wish all the participants the very best in this forthcoming stouch.

 

[rocket12]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

The steps advocated by GG of hiding your tracks by not speaking to an accountant and changing name by deed poll are highly unethical at best, probably blatantly illegal at worst (I'm not a lawyer and so don't know) and would also create a whole mass of new problems for anybody that actually tries it - including possible prosecution and jail time. I certainly wouldn't be advocating anyone go down that path.

If its not possible to tackle it in a way that is legal then the people in the situation will just have to face the music - sure do whatever is legal to protect assets where possible - but at the end of the day it needs to be treated like being a car accident victim or some other incident beyond ones control.

The best way in my view to deal with this is to accept that there was a mistake made, that there is no point in blaming oneself or anybody else around, that the consequences are going to be extremely unpleasant, that there will be a tough period ahead, but that beyond it, in spite of it all, life will go on and it will be possible to be happy and prosperous again one day.

Not everybody will be sympathetic - ignore the ones that aren't and accept the support and help from those that are, and return the favour when the opportunity arises.

We have been told by relevant authorities not to listen nor act on anything too good to be true, or in this and a few other suggestions that are immoral or unethical.

 

[Calliope]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Why did NAB and ETrade think it necessary to advise people just prior to purchase that there was a $2 per share future liability, but Comsec didnt. Oh yeah, and we both pay the same tiny brokerage fee btw.

I've no idea, but I suppose it's because they don't have to.

And that is just plain nasty.

Maybe. But I find it hard to sympathise with fools. The other day one of my grandsons got a speeding ticket. He was foolish. He got no sympathy from his mother or his father. Quite the opposite.

 

[Prospector]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Maybe. But I find it hard to sympathise with fools. The other day one of my grandsons got a speeding ticket. He was foolish. He got no sympathy from his mother or his father. Quite the opposite.

And the loss of demerit points and the hefty fine no doubt taught him a lesson :; I think the corollary here is if the penalty for speeding was the loss of licence forever. To me, it all gets back to 'just penalty'. We both agree that there was an error of judgement, potentially stupidity, but to think this act can result in a $4million liability for a $2000 mistake - I just can't get over that.

 

[lesm]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

You took 5 minutes to investigate something that you were actually looking for. You do understand that we weren't looking for this, as we didn't know that you had to go investigating through everey sublink on the announcements page looking for this sting in the tail that we didn't even know existed.

When I bought the share I looked through every research page checking out the fundamentals and it all looked fine to me. The chart was ordinary, but so was the chart of plenty of others that I have bought that have recovered.

From a chartist or T/A perspective there was only one direction and that was short, but this would be a non-shortable stock.

Actually, I used the same approach I would for researching any share that I was interested in from a longer term or investment perspective. Just set myself the task of researching the share in that manner. But, I do know what I am looking for and where to find it, which is the difference between an experienced trader/investor and an inexperienced or naive one. Plus, I am familiar with the different share codes, so there is a different level of knowledge

This situation highlights a number of issues that were probably never envisioned by the ASX or ASIC, especially with the introduction of online brokers. It has now become too easy for people to participate on the ASX, without understanding the inherent dangers or risks that can arise.

Your sample survey has indicated the number people who are unknowledgeable of the different types of shares that are available and subsequent implications that can arise. While it is a small sample, and most likely statistically questionable, the ratio is scary.

Although, the ASX makes a range of educational and other materials available, it appears that a wide range of people are not using these services or educating themselves via any other means.

How this will end is as yet unkown, but I do sympathise for those caught up in this due to their inexperience or lack of knowledge. It is a hard way to learn a lesson though. It has the potential to be very expensive and for some soul and family destroying.

Best of luck, but make sure you really do get top notch legal advice and a legal "A" team.

Be careful what you put in print and post on a public forum, it could come back and bite you and others.

 

[Sunder]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

And the loss of demerit points and the hefty fine no doubt taught him a lesson :; I think the corollary here is if the penalty for speeding was the loss of licence forever. To me, it all gets back to 'just penalty'. We both agree that there was an error of judgement, potentially stupidity, but to think this act can result in a $4million liability for a $2000 mistake - I just can't get over that.

Is electrocution a fair consequence of not watching where you move a metal ladder?

Is asphyxiation a fair consequence for misjudging the surf?

Is massive trauma a fair consequence for incorrectly judging the position and speed of a car?

Remember we're not talking about punishment here, but consequence.

Punishment knows reason. Consequence doesn't.

 

[Prospector]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Is electrocution a fair consequence of not watching where you move a metal ladder?
Is asphyxiation a fair consequence for misjudging the surf?
Is massive trauma a fair consequence for incorrectly judging the position and speed of a car?
Remember we're not talking about punishment here, but consequence.
Punishment knows reason. Consequence doesn't.

Fair points.

 

[cuttlefish]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Is electrocution a fair consequence of not watching where you move a metal ladder?

Is asphyxiation a fair consequence for misjudging the surf?

Is massive trauma a fair consequence for incorrectly judging the position and speed of a car?

Remember we're not talking about punishment here, but consequence.

Punishment knows reason. Consequence doesn't.

There are very few places where moving a metal ladder will cause electrocution and there are invariably warning signs on low overhead wires and high voltage wire has insulation shielding to protect people.

The surf has surf life savers and warning signs telling swimmers to remain between the flags. The beaches are closed completely when there is dangerous surf.

There are numerous regulations, warnings and controls over the use of motor vehicles and the road. Drivers of vehicles need to undergo written and practical examinations before being allowed to risk their own and others lives on the roads. Pedestrians have protection in the form of cars being restricted to only being driven on roads (you don't see them driving on the footpath, through your local park or through your front door) there are lights controlling intersections, curbing and footpaths are provided on roads, fences are placed alongside freeways to restrict pedestrian access, road safety is taught in schools etc. etc. etc.

A $500 'investment' creating a $2 million dollar liabillity with no indication that this is happening at the time of purchase is the financial equivalent of exposed 240V wires lying about in the living room in my view.

 

[rocket12]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Is electrocution a fair consequence of not watching where you move a metal ladder?

Is asphyxiation a fair consequence for misjudging the surf?

Is massive trauma a fair consequence for incorrectly judging the position and speed of a car?

Remember we're not talking about punishment here, but consequence.

Punishment knows reason. Consequence doesn't.

We all know of these consequences, they are ver basic common life knowlege that we all know.

Go and ask 100 people what is the worst case senario of going surfing, you will get 100 people answering death by drowning. Ask 100 people that dabble in the stock market what is the wost case senario when investing money and a huge percentage will answer that you can lose your money. Very few would know that you could be sued for 1000 times the money you invested.

I am amazed that you could type those examples and not think to yourself that, hold on I'm making a mistake here, these are nothing like what is happening with the Brisc situation. And I suppose even now that it is pointed out to you, it still wont register. Will it.

 

[sails]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

...Has any of the BrisConnections shareholders tried contacting BrisConnections to see if they can negotiate something?

Mazza, I think this is a good suggestion. Has anyone contacted them to see if the shares could be forfeited?

 

[steve999]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Excuse me.

As a Comsec user, similar to yourself, and having taking the trouble of looking at what information was available for BCSCA on the site, before making my first post.

...

Opposing senior counsel is going to have field day, if this ever goes to court.

BTW, they won't be wearing 'kid gloves' if they get you and others on a witness stand under cross-examination.

That's all great, but if the share holders don't have the $Xmillion they owe it won't make much difference to the outcome.

 

[Julia]

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Mazza, I think this is a good suggestion. Has anyone contacted them to see if the shares could be forfeited?

I agree here. Excellent suggestion, Mazza.