BCS - BrisConnections Unit Trusts

mazzatelli1000 · 2 January 2009

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Calliope said:
I know. I've been there. And learned costly lessons. And I doubt that there is anybody who hasn't been in the same boat. You have to put it down to experience and move on.

There may not be alot for these people to experience after they have lost everything!!!

Although I sympathize with folk that have got caught up in this, I believe stating that you did not even look at the PDS, won't help your case in court.

Better to keep such things quiet than to post it publicly on a forum.

noirua · 2 January 2009

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

There are very many people in a similar position including the largest shareholder who needs to pay $94 million. No chance of him finding the money.

If Brisconnections go to court on every case it would take a long time and they'd get very little of the money needed.

Many could defend on the basis that all information required to be given to them was not. They would have needed to have signed documents to make this effective, and Brokers and others should have contacted Banks to make sure they had the means to pay - similar to mining companies who require a letter of assurance from a Bank, to make sure the cargo will be paid for.

Calliope · 2 January 2009

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

rocket12 said:
Your comment asking why would we buy this stock, unless we were trying to make a quick few bucks, ummmmm well yes thats what we were trying to do, thats why people go bottom fishing. I've done this very succesfully before, done it again now, and will do it again in the future (no 5 letter share codes though)

OK. so you're a gambler, and you say you have been very successful. You win some, you lose some. Now you want to blame others because you got out of your depth and lost. And you have learnt nothing from it. Incredible!!

That being said I think you will get away with it. The underwriters will keep you dangling on the hook as long as it suits them, and then they will throw you back. You can't get blood out of a stone. After all, you and your fellow gamblers have achieved victim status. Victims in this country are treated with sympathy no matter what idiocy led them to it. The responses on this thread are testimony to that.

As for the "5 letter share codes", I quite like the hybrid securities, but then I am an investor looking for income, not a gambler.

rocket12 · 2 January 2009

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Calliope said:
OK. so you're a gambler, and you say you have been very successful. You win some, you lose some. Now you want to blame others because you got out of your depth and lost. And you have learnt nothing from it. Incredible!!

That being said I think you will get away with it. The underwriters will keep you dangling on the hook as long as it suits them, and then they will throw you back. You can't get blood out of a stone. After all, you and your fellow gamblers have achieved victim status. Victims in this country are treated with sympathy no matter what idiocy led them to it. The responses on this thread are testimony to that.

As for the "5 letter share codes", I quite like the hybrid securities, but then I am an investor looking for income, not a gambler.

I've learnt not to go near 5 letter codes.

rocket12 · 2 January 2009

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

mazzatelli1000 said:
There may not be alot for these people to experience after they have lost everything!!!

Although I sympathize with folk that have got caught up in this, I believe stating that you did not even look at the PDS, won't help your case in court.

Better to keep such things quiet than to post it publicly on a forum.

That would be one of the first things covered in court, obviously hundreds or thousands have bought this stock without searching for the PDS. They have used an online broker, where in none of the reasearch pages is it mentioned that this is a contributing share.

Material non-disclosure

"one party to a contract neglects to disclose a fact that the other party would regard as a crucial factor in her evaluation of the proposed bargain"

Cartman · 2 January 2009

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Calliope said:
but then I am an investor looking for income, not a gambler.

lol -- we are all gamblers dont kid yrself

an 'investor' is just a gambler who got wise enuff quick enuff not to blow up his account like these unfortunate folk

for eg --- a punter who bought CBA last xmas and didnt practice MM would be pretty sad this xmas ----- Investor or Gambler??

yr entitled to yr opinion -- no probs with that -- but rubbing do-do in peoples faces when they could go to the wall sounds a bit like 'holy joe syndrome' to me

ps re the above post ----- does everyone buying BHP or CBA read their PDS??

Julia · 2 January 2009

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

rocket12 said:
Material non-disclosure

"one party to a contract neglects to disclose a fact that the other party would regard as a crucial factor in her evaluation of the proposed bargain"

This would seem to cover Comsec's failure to state the remaining amount to pay on their Buy page.

Sunder · 2 January 2009

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Julia said:
This would seem to cover Comsec's failure to state the remaining amount to pay on their Buy page.

Except that Comsec is not the counterparty to the transaction - they are the broker of a transaction. For example, eBay is not usually held accountable to the transactions that take place on their website.

Besides, that clause only applies if the information is not considered already public. For example, if the house you are selling is directly under a planned flight path, you are not required to disclose anything, because even though it's not common knowledge, it's public knowledge.

mazzatelli1000 · 2 January 2009

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

rocket12 said:
That would be one of the first things covered in court, obviously hundreds or thousands have bought this stock without searching for the PDS. They have used an online broker, where in none of the reasearch pages is it mentioned that this is a contributing share.

Material non-disclosure

"one party to a contract neglects to disclose a fact that the other party would regard as a crucial factor in her evaluation of the proposed bargain"

I was under the impression that the onus is on BrisConnections to make sure they disclose everything to you as they are the counterparty- which I can only assume they have done in the PDS. So material non disclosure cannot be applied to Bris Connections??

I guess you are arguing on the basis that Commsec has not delivered enough information - which is a separate case.

grace · 2 January 2009

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

From Business Spectator today

But unlike its investors, the creators of the BrisConnections IPO cannot go unrewarded. A stock that plummets from an issue price of one dollar to one tenth of a cent, and can carry an $86 million liability from the purchase of $48,000 of shares – as one Melbourne-based investor is learning to his cost – deserves some recognition. As for hitting a low, the ASX trading system will not let you go any lower than one tenth of a cent.

This is from a story of the best and worst of 2008!

Prospector · 2 January 2009

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

grace said:
From Business Spectator today

This is from a story of the best and worst of 2008!

Maybe, just maybe, the worse it gets, the better the outcome for the holders.

lesm · 2 January 2009

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

noirua said:
If Brisconnections go to court on every case it would take a long time and they'd get very little of the money needed.

Not strictly correct.

Brisconnections will get its money (from the underwriters), if it ensures that it complies with its legal obligations under the contract/agreement with the underwriters.

Unless BCS seeks and is granted relief from the relevant clause(s), by the underwriters, it is bound to conduct debt recovery activities. To fail to do so would leave it open to litigation by its shareholders and potentially other parties for failing to meet its legal obligations.

There are, of course, questions surrounding the commercial viability of conducting debt recovery activities against defaulters who are unable to pay the required instalment(s).

Whether people like it or not, Brisconnections itself is in a catch-22 situation.

thermalmonster · 2 January 2009

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Brisconnections have brought this situation on themselves, for not putting a safety net around the ability to by theese units.
Investors should have been vetted to ensure they had the capacity to pay the liability.

Calliope · 2 January 2009

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Cartman said:
yr entitled to yr opinion -- no probs with that -- but rubbing do-do in peoples faces when they could go to the wall sounds a bit like 'holy joe syndrome' to me

As I said, people tend to sympathise with victims, even those who are victims of their own greed and gullibility. This guy won't go to the wall. He will escape. In the meantime he is enjoying his 15 minutes of fame...at least on this thread.

mazzatelli1000 · 2 January 2009

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

mazzatelli1000 said:
I was under the impression that the onus is on BrisConnections to make sure they disclose everything to you as they are the counterparty- which I can only assume they have done in the PDS. So material non disclosure cannot be applied to Bris Connections??

I guess you are arguing on the basis that Commsec has not delivered enough information - which is a separate case.

I don't think material non disclosure can apply to Commsec, only to BrisConnections.

I'll propose an analogy
Commsec is like a supermarket/intermediary
BrisConnections is a manufacturer
Brisconnections shareholders are the end consumers.

The onus is on the manufacturer to have warnings and cautions on the product to notify the end consumer. The supermarket is not responsible for such disclosure and I think the same could be said for Commsec. I understand that NAB and E*Trade have extra descriptions, but the key here is whether Commsec is legally required to do so. If not, it is just a case of poor service compared to the other online brokers.

If there is a legal requirement - then there may be a case.

Just my thoughts.
Its a tough situation, I cant think of any other avenues atm.

Has any of the BrisConnections shareholders tried contacting BrisConnections to see if they can negotiate something?

rocket12 · 2 January 2009

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Calliope said:
As I said, people tend to sympathise with victims, even those who are victims of their own greed and gullibility. This guy won't go to the wall. He will escape. In the meantime he is enjoying his 15 minutes of fame...at least on this thread.

Yay I'm a famous poster in a thread, and it is very enjoyable. thanks GG/Calliope

You seem confident they wont hammer us, why is that?

lesm · 2 January 2009

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

rocket12 said:
That would be one of the first things covered in court, obviously hundreds or thousands have bought this stock without searching for the PDS. They have used an online broker, where in none of the reasearch pages is it mentioned that this is a contributing share.

Material non-disclosure

"one party to a contract neglects to disclose a fact that the other party would regard as a crucial factor in her evaluation of the proposed bargain"

Excuse me.

As a Comsec user, similar to yourself, and having taking the trouble of looking at what information was available for BCSCA on the site, before making my first post.

It took less than 5 minutes to find the required information.

One minute you are saying that you did very little research and the next you are claiming the relevant information is/was not available on Comsec or possibly other online brokers?????

Look at the titles on the announcements page from Comsec that you posted in "post#36" and see if you can pick the obvious one. It is below the Distributions Update that you circled in your post.

Opposing senior counsel is going to have field day, if this ever goes to court.

BTW, they won't be wearing 'kid gloves' if they get you and others on a witness stand under cross-examination.

cuttlefish · 2 January 2009

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

mazzatelli1000 said:
I don't think material non disclosure can apply to Commsec, only to BrisConnections.

I'll propose an analogy
Commsec is like a supermarket/intermediary
BrisConnections is a manufacturer
Brisconnections shareholders are the end consumers.

In my view the counterparty is the seller of the stock on the secondary market (the facilitator of that secondary market being the ASX).

On the ASX the seller of the stock is theoretically anonymous (it probably can be technically traced but from a legal standpoint its an arms length, anonymous transaction). Its unlikely anybody would be able to pursue the counterparty directly and it would set a very scary precedent if achieved.

I'm still of the viewpoint that the facilitator of the market should have a responsibility to ensure that the market has adequate protection for investors from taking on undue risk, but thats my opinion only and I don't know what legislation there is to regulate the ASX's 'regulation of itself'.

rocket12 · 2 January 2009

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

lesm said:
Excuse me.

As a Comsec user, similar to yourself, and having taking the trouble of looking at what information was available for BCSCA on the site, before making my first post.

It took less than 5 minutes to find the required information.

One minute you are saying that you did very little research and the next you are claiming the relevant information is/was not available on Comsec or possibly other online brokers?????

Look at the titles on the announcements page from Comsec that you posted in "post#36" and see if you can pick the obvious one. It is below the Distributions Update that you circled in your post.

Opposing senior counsel is going to have field day, if this ever goes to court.

BTW, they won't be wearing 'kid gloves' if they get you and others on a witness stand under cross-examination.

You took 5 minutes to investigate something that you were actually looking for. You do understand that we weren't looking for this, as we didn't know that you had to go investigating through every sublink on the announcements page looking for this sting in the tail that we didn't even know existed.

When I bought the share I looked through every research page checking out the fundamentals and it all looked fine to me. The chart was ordinary, but so was the chart of plenty of others that I have bought that have recovered.

Ps I have said right from the start that I looked through every single research page before buying, and admitted right from the start that I didn't go through every single announcement. As the ASA have said this should be highlited on the buy page in flashing lights not hidden deep in the announcements page.

cuttlefish · 2 January 2009

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Garpal Gumnut said:
If I were in this unfortunate situation I would follow the advice an old mate of mine who appears in the AFR giving financial advice at this very moment.

1. Sell everything sellable for cash, boat, car, etc.

2. Clear out all my bank accounts and give cash to someone I could trust at arms length.

3. Do not speak to an accountant, they leave a trail, look at poor old Rene Rivkin, as fine an Australian patriot as one would find let down by a trail.

4. Transfer title of house now into relatives name and sell soon.

5. Change your name by deed poll on the same day that you buy a Land Cruiser and Caravan in your old name.

6. Head off around this great land of ours, and spend , spend, spend.

It will boost the economy and keep you safe from Macquarie.

gg

So you advocate the use of deception and possibly acting in a way that is illegal?

Calliope said:
Yeah GG, that's movin' on. Much more satisfying than posting three times a day complaining about getting a bum deal and looking for sympathy.

And you support it.

Gives us some idea of where your senses of ethics may lie.

Moral high ground battle succesfully lost.

BCS - BrisConnections Unit Trusts

mazzatelli1000

noirua

Calliope

rocket12

rocket12

Cartman

Julia

In Memoriam

Sunder

mazzatelli1000

grace

Prospector

Not a scaredy cat anymore

lesm

thermalmonster

Calliope

mazzatelli1000

rocket12

lesm

cuttlefish

rocket12

cuttlefish

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