BCS - BrisConnections Unit Trusts

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

There are no laws, rules or regulations that can stop anyone, who thinks he sees the chance of making a fast buck, or getting a bargain, from jumping in the deep end without looking.

The police are amazed that some people have been caught by Nigerian scammers more than once.

For used car salesmen and real estate agents these people are icing on the cake. Their mantra is "a fool and his money are soon parted."

I know. I've been there. And learned costly lessons. And I doubt that there is anybody who hasn't been in the same boat. You have to put it down to experience and move on.

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

rocket12 said:

Thats what will/should happen in the future after this has all been dealt with. Don't know why they are different though, I did the same google searches after I realized what I had bought so it was all new to me.

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BCS is a Pty Ltd Company.

From the ASX publication "Getting Started in Shares"

Contributing Shares
"Shares that have been partly paid for. At a
future date the shareholder will be required
to pay the balance outstanding, unless the
company is a no liability company in which case
shares can be forfeited instead."

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Calliope said:

There are no laws, rules or regulations that can stop anyone, who thinks he sees the chance of making a fast buck, or getting a bargain, from jumping in the deep end without looking.

The police are amazed that some people have been caught by Nigerian scammers more than once.

For used car salesmen and real estate agents these people are icing on the cake. Their mantra is "a fool and his money are soon parted."

I know. I've been there. And learned costly lessons. And I doubt that there is anybody who hasn't been in the same boat. You have to put it down to experience and move on.

Click to expand...

couldn't agree more mate.

the best these guys can do is put it down to experience and move on.

gg

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

rocket12 said:

All was not revealed after clicking the announcements link. There are well over 50 announcements that you have to go through one by one. So tell me honesty when you buy a share you go through every single announcement of every share you buy. So you really think that hidden amongst 50 announcements is the best way to inform people??

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Read only the market sensitive anns (!) There are only a few of them. In most cases at the end of the ann there is a statement "About Brisconnections" which tells you what you say you didn't know. Do I think it is the best way to inform people? I can't think of a better way. I have done hundreds of trades and I haven't made one without studying the anns.

If you think it is too big a chore to do some research you should stay away from the market.

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Garpal Gumnut said:

the best these guys can do is put it down to experience and move on.

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I am sure these people would move on if they could; if it was just a matter of losing their initial outlay they would be ecstatic; only problem is, they now have a $1million dollar debt - kinda hard to move on from that.

Bushie hasnt been around for a while; hope all is ok

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Too true Prospector,

I think we would all move on if it was just the initial outlay we had lost.

Hard to Move on with a $4M debt over you and the threat of bankruptcy, losing your home $ Business

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

thermalmonster said:

Too true Prospector,

I think we would all move on if it was just the initial outlay we had lost.

Hard to Move on with a $4M debt over you and the threat of bankruptcy, losing your home $ Business

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If I were in this unfortunate situation I would follow the advice an old mate of mine who appears in the AFR giving financial advice at this very moment.

1. Sell everything sellable for cash, boat, car, etc.

2. Clear out all my bank accounts and give cash to someone I could trust at arms length.

3. Do not speak to an accountant, they leave a trail, look at poor old Rene Rivkin, as fine an Australian patriot as one would find let down by a trail.

4. Transfer title of house now into relatives name and sell soon.

5. Change your name by deed poll on the same day that you buy a Land Cruiser and Caravan in your old name.

6. Head off around this great land of ours, and spend , spend, spend.

It will boost the economy and keep you safe from Macquarie.

gg

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Yeah GG, that's movin' on. Much more satisfying than posting three times a day complaining about getting a bum deal and looking for sympathy.

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Garpal Gumnut said:

If I were in this unfortunate situation I would follow the advice an old mate of mine who appears in the AFR giving financial advice at this very moment.

1. Sell everything sellable for cash, boat, car, etc.

2. Clear out all my bank accounts and give cash to someone I could trust at arms length.

3. Do not speak to an accountant, they leave a trail, look at poor old Rene Rivkin, as fine an Australian patriot as one would find let down by a trail.

4. Transfer title of house now into relatives name and sell soon.

5. Change your name by deed poll on the same day that you buy a Land Cruiser and Caravan in your old name.

6. Head off around this great land of ours, and spend , spend, spend.

It will boost the economy and keep you safe from Macquarie.

gg

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If creditors do file for Bankruptcy, the current rules allow ITSA to go back as far as five years to see where any transfer of assets were made. This is the theory. What happens in practice?

Under the Bankruptcy rules, protected property is as follows
- ordinary clothing
- necessary furniture & effects
- tools of trade (up to $3250)
- Super policies up to $400 000
- Life insurance
- Property of non-bankrupt spouse!!!!!!!!!
- motor vehicle $6000 (net of debt)
- property/money held in trust
- wedding rings etc

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

grace said:

If creditors do file for Bankruptcy, the current rules allow ITSA to go back as far as five years to see where any transfer of assets were made. This is the theory. What happens in practice?

Under the Bankruptcy rules, protected property is as follows
- ordinary clothing
- necessary furniture & effects
- tools of trade (up to $3250)
- Super policies up to $400 000
- Life insurance
- Property of non-bankrupt spouse!!!!!!!!!
- motor vehicle $6000 (net of debt)
- property/money held in trust
- wedding rings etc

Click to expand...

Ask Rene !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

gg

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

grace said:

If creditors do file for Bankruptcy, the current rules allow ITSA to go back as far as five years to see where any transfer of assets were made. This is the theory. What happens in practice?

Under the Bankruptcy rules, protected property is as follows
...
- Super policies up to $400 000
...

Click to expand...

Thats an interesting one - so would it be possible for people to transfer at least up to $400k of their assets into a self managed super fund and protect them that way?

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

sails said:

33:8 gives 76% so far agreeing that this is an incredibly easy trap for newbies to fall into.

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Absolutely.
We regularly on this forum get first posts from new investors/traders asking where should they start. Often the replies recommend reading of various quite sophisticated books on technical trading.
Imo much heartache could be prevented if new people simply read thoroughly through all of the Investor Education section on the ASX website. It's free, it's clear and they will answer any questions you might have.

I don't feel that offloading them to a homeless type person is morally right either - except that the homeless person:
(a) wouldn't be buying the shares - would likely be a gift with an extra cash bonus and
(b) they should be informed before the deal was done with the the option to decline.
This appears to be a fairer deal than the newbie investors who fell into this.

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Sails, whilst I understand why you would say this, I just can't agree that any deal done with a homeless person is a deal done between equals and therefore fair. I've spent over 12 years working with these people. They are not homeless because they they are in control of their lives. They are usually not emotionally stable. If you offer such a deal to an addict, waving $1000 in front of him, he won't even hear what you are saying when you dutifully explain the ramifications of accepting such an offer. He will just be seeing the instant means to his next hit of heroin. Therefore, at least on my moral compass, it's simply wrong.

prawn_86 said:

I agree totally. Buyer beware, thats capitalism. Capitalism doesnt involve many 'morals' and thats for the individual to decide how far they are willing to go, within the scope of the law. And i would think if someone agreed to take on the shares at a price, then thats within the law, even if they cant pay the debt.

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Prawn, after reading Chops' further post explaining the misuse of the expression "capitalism", you appear to have perhaps changed your tune somewhat from the above? Or perhaps I'm just being idealistic.

rocket12 said:

Hi Julia, none of the far fetched options are being entertained by any of us. As I've stated before I have my shares up for sale in the market as do most of the others caught out, but hope that the only people who buy them off me are MaqB. I would be horrified if someone else in the same boat as me bought them. Those of us that bought via Commsec, Westpac etc wont be taking this lying down. We all hope that the the powers that be come up with a solution, but we will be doing everything we can legally incase it goes all the way.

I have even bought shares since BCSCA without searching through their PDS

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I just can't believe this.

On a side note some of the 8 posters think that we were gready buying a stock hoping to make a quick buck. Hehe that really takes the cake, I'm going to stock up on some shares tomorrow that I hope to make a quick loss on.

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Maybe not a quick buck, but presumably you bought them in the expectation that you would make money?

Rocket, I'm not quite sure how to say this, but I do admire the way you have coped with this. Mostly you seem to have just got on with finding out what avenues may be available to you, gathering up others similarly affected etc., and you haven't - especially considering the stress this must be causing - been emotional and unreasonable.

Calliope said:

It's clearly explained in their ANX Announcement on the day they listed, 31 July 2008.

Anyone trying to make a case of non-disclosure against;

The bloke who sold the shares to him,
Comsec who brokered the deal,
Brisconnections, who floated the stapled security package,
or the ASX who made it all possible

would be doomed to failure.

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Calliope, do you not feel Comsec has a case to answer for not clearly stating the further $2 to pay on the final Buy screen before committing to the order?

thermalmonster said:

Hi Rocket

What is the reason the shares cannot be Forfeited like all the other partly paid ASX securities?
I have googled a few PDF reports where all unpaid stapled securities have just been forfeited.

If this is not the case with BCSCA then surely a different listing was required, or NO LISTING AT ALL

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Thermalmonster, presumably the company when deciding the terms of the IPO can determine this. As long as they clearly state the terms in the PDS I doubt they can be accused of doing anything wrong.
I'm open to correction on this and would be interested to get examples of the above mentioned forfeited stapled securities.

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

As in all investing there are 2 issues

Fear

Greed


Greed led these folk into investing in Brisconnect.

Fear now leads them to find a way out.

I find people who cannot counter greed, cannot overcome fear.

So no amount of advice will help them.

gg

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

prawn_86 said:

I can totally see your point chops, and it is often a point i have pondered myself. Somewhere along the lines, morals went out the windows. I think it is something to do with mans inherent greed, and now we have something to blame our greed on (capitalism) then we can also blame our declining business morals on it.

While i agree with wat you say, im at a total loss as to how it can be fixed. I think everyone has their own moral compass and they decide how far they are willing to go personally. I have often wondered that of myself, providing what i was doing was legal, how far would i go even if it was not 'right'?

What are your ideas as to how to get morals back into business? (Perhaps it should be another thread so as not to derail this one further?)

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A thread on the value of good corporate governance would be a start I think. There has been some very interesting studies on it. Especially in regard to long term returns.

Your first paragraph is spot on.

As to what we do about it... eventually has to be self correcting to some extent. But there are some overt benefits for management to act in a more transparent and correct manner, which eventually if smart enough, they would be stupid not to take on.

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Julia said:

...Sails, whilst I understand why you would say this, I just can't agree that any deal done with a homeless person is a deal done between equals and therefore fair. I've spent over 12 years working with these people. They are not homeless because they they are in control of their lives. They are usually not emotionally stable. If you offer such a deal to an addict, waving $1000 in front of him, he won't even hear what you are saying when you dutifully explain the ramifications of accepting such an offer. He will just be seeing the instant means to his next hit of heroin. Therefore, at least on my moral compass, it's simply wrong.

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You are absolutely correct, Julia and I should not have used a homeless person in the comparison. I totally agree with all you have written above on the lives of homeless people and as I said in my original post I was not condoning such a situation. Life is a big enough struggle for them without adding any extra burdens.

I also agree that most homeless people would probably jump at the opportunity of some instant cash (which would most probably be spent quickly but not necessarily wisely) without fully considering future implications which may well become all too much for them.

My apologies and thanks for pointing it out

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Garpal Gumnut said:

If I were in this unfortunate situation I would follow the advice an old mate of mine who appears in the AFR giving financial advice at this very moment.

1. Sell everything sellable for cash, boat, car, etc.

2. Clear out all my bank accounts and give cash to someone I could trust at arms length.

3. Do not speak to an accountant, they leave a trail, look at poor old Rene Rivkin, as fine an Australian patriot as one would find let down by a trail.

4. Transfer title of house now into relatives name and sell soon.

5. Change your name by deed poll on the same day that you buy a Land Cruiser and Caravan in your old name.

6. Head off around this great land of ours, and spend , spend, spend.

It will boost the economy and keep you safe from Macquarie.

gg

Click to expand...

Youv'e made some good points there, I am doing a few of them already including heading off on a lovely Europe trip in Feb with my beautiful wife...

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

I still cannot get my head around how in the hell the unfortunate punters who bought these these "weapons of financial destruction"

• actually found them;
• would actually buy something with a price of $0.001.

It took me ages searching the ASX web-site to locate these little devils - and I still haven't a clue what BCSCB is - so I can only conclude that whoever went searching for them was really diligent in trying to find one heck of a cheapo.

And then to buy such a share at that price?? Why would you unless you anticipated making a quick few bucks hoping that the price increased?

As for the unpaid, looking at the market depth, there is, on my brokers site at least, the wording "Brisconnection Trust Stapled Security Paid To $1.00, $2.00 Unpaid", ie Warning, Will Robertson.

And then looking at the chart....what a beautiful triple somersault with a half tuck from August to November. A 99.76% fall in four months. If that is not an indication of danger, I don't know what is.

And if people are using a broker where it is clear that no financial or other advice is provided, well that is what you get for cheap brokerage rates.

Having almost been there, while I feel sad that people could face financial ruin, all the pointers are that through their own actions and the glint of profit in their eyes, they achieved it all by themselves. Sad but no sympathy.

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Calliope said:

Yeah GG, that's movin' on. Much more satisfying than posting three times a day complaining about getting a bum deal and looking for sympathy.

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Well, they will get sympathy from me! OK, they made a mistake. But show me where, in life, spending $500 could cost you everything. And maybe it is time for you to move on if you cant show a shred of compassion for these people; at least GG is coming up with suggestions rather than keep posting just to bagging them all the time!

Judd said:

I still cannot get my head around how in the hell the unfortunate punters who bought these these "weapons of financial destruction"

actually found them;
would actually buy something with a price of $0.001. ..

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At least one of these people heard of BCSCA through their employment, which is a contractor to BrisConn. An entirely reasonable find - it is infrastructure and that is supposed to be safe!
And what is a good price to pay for a share? I bought Paladdin at 11cents and that went all the way to $10! That was a nice one for me.

Judd said:

As for the unpaid, looking at the market depth, there is, on my brokers site at least, the wording "Brisconnection Trust Stapled Security Paid To $1.00, $2.00 Unpaid", ie Warning, Will Robertson..

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Well, NAB and ETrade both had this just prior to entering the pin code; apparently Commsec didnt!

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

cuttlefish said:

Thats an interesting one - so would it be possible for people to transfer at least up to $400k of their assets into a self managed super fund and protect them that way?

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Yes, it was rolling around in my head too last night......although not through a SMSF as you can't be a bankrupt trustee. You could go to a 'normal' super fund.

The rule about transferring assets prior to bankruptcy might come into play....I'll look into it further.

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Judd said:

I still cannot get my head around how in the hell the unfortunate punters who bought these these "weapons of financial destruction"

• actually found them;
• would actually buy something with a price of $0.001.

It took me ages searching the ASX web-site to locate these little devils - and I still haven't a clue what BCSCB is - so I can only conclude that whoever went searching for them was really diligent in trying to find one heck of a cheapo.

And then to buy such a share at that price?? Why would you unless you anticipated making a quick few bucks hoping that the price increased?

As for the unpaid, looking at the market depth, there is, on my brokers site at least, the wording "Brisconnection Trust Stapled Security Paid To $1.00, $2.00 Unpaid", ie Warning, Will Robertson.

And then looking at the chart....what a beautiful triple somersault with a half tuck from August to November. A 99.76% fall in four months. If that is not an indication of danger, I don't know what is.

And if people are using a broker where it is clear that no financial or other advice is provided, well that is what you get for cheap brokerage rates.

Having almost been there, while I feel sad that people could face financial ruin, all the pointers are that through their own actions and the glint of profit in their eyes, they achieved it all by themselves. Sad but no sympathy.

Click to expand...

I bought 17 other shares under .005 of a cent that same week, it's not hard to go through the paper and look for anything under a certain price. Bottom fishing after a huge market correction is nothing new, not your cup of tea but heaps of people do it. Perfectly happy to lose all this money as it's only a small percentage compared to what I put into blue chip stocks.

Your comment asking why would we buy this stock, unless we were trying to make a quick few bucks, ummmmm well yes thats what we were trying to do, thats why people go bottom fishing. I've done this very succesfully before, done it again now, and will do it again in the future (no 5 letter share codes though)

Your broker site has done it well and informed you that there is still $2.00 unpaid clearly on the buy page, but as you can see from my screencaps on the previous page of this thread this isn't the case on all online broker sites.