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Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin
No, talk about a conflict of interest.
No, talk about a conflict of interest.
BCS - BrisConnections Unit Trusts
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Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin
Those theiving bastards at Macquarie pocketed $110 million out of the float of this train wreck.
Rocket 12, go straight to the top and "literally" put a rocket up Nicholas Moore.
Those theiving bastards at Macquarie pocketed $110 million out of the float of this train wreck.
Rocket 12, go straight to the top and "literally" put a rocket up Nicholas Moore.
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Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin
A fascinating aspect of this debacle is the fact that Macquarie offloaded their warrants recently as pointed out in this article http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2008/s2425392.htm which probably coincided with the massive volume in mid November, and what’s with the d***head that purchased 2 million shares for his 82 year old mum, topping up her super fund maybe???
A fascinating aspect of this debacle is the fact that Macquarie offloaded their warrants recently as pointed out in this article http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2008/s2425392.htm which probably coincided with the massive volume in mid November, and what’s with the d***head that purchased 2 million shares for his 82 year old mum, topping up her super fund maybe???
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Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin
I posted a response in this thread last night ... I'm sure I submitted it and saw it on the thread after submitting. Not sure what happened to it.
When I'm less busy I guess I'll try to post it again.
I posted a response in this thread last night ... I'm sure I submitted it and saw it on the thread after submitting. Not sure what happened to it.
When I'm less busy I guess I'll try to post it again.
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Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin
An ASF member requested that, on legal advice, a post be deleted and, as a consequence, all posts that quoted it also had to be deleted.
My apologies for the inconvenience.
An ASF member requested that, on legal advice, a post be deleted and, as a consequence, all posts that quoted it also had to be deleted.
My apologies for the inconvenience.
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Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin
Thanks for the explanation Joe.
Thanks for the explanation Joe.
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Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin
Well if you were to write and complain about this to someone - who would it be ASIC? The ASX? Your local member? The shareholders association?
I think someone should be taking this on.
Well if you were to write and complain about this to someone - who would it be ASIC? The ASX? Your local member? The shareholders association?
I think someone should be taking this on.
Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin
Brisconnections are very adament they have a binding contract that cant be broken...
I have put in a dispute with the financial ombudsmen, and Stuart Wilson from the shareholders association is very good and doing everything he can.
Brisconnections are very adament they have a binding contract that cant be broken...
I have put in a dispute with the financial ombudsmen, and Stuart Wilson from the shareholders association is very good and doing everything he can.
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Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin
hello rocket,
sorry that you are in this situation, it sounds very unpleasant.
really, the best hope of getting out of this mess is to rally all others who have been "surprised" by their investment in this stock. band together and take action together.
there is less chance of success, i think, as an individual, because i think u will find the onus is on you to fully inform yourself when u enter the market place -- the additional letters might be the only legal requirement at pnt of sale.
however, if there are enough of you, unified as a group, the powers that be, may decide that the additional letters are not a satisfactory means of informing the buyer.
one question, how are you coping personally regarding this mess?
james
hello rocket,
sorry that you are in this situation, it sounds very unpleasant.
really, the best hope of getting out of this mess is to rally all others who have been "surprised" by their investment in this stock. band together and take action together.
there is less chance of success, i think, as an individual, because i think u will find the onus is on you to fully inform yourself when u enter the market place -- the additional letters might be the only legal requirement at pnt of sale.
however, if there are enough of you, unified as a group, the powers that be, may decide that the additional letters are not a satisfactory means of informing the buyer.
one question, how are you coping personally regarding this mess?
james
Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin
I use netwealth Share Trading as my on-line broker and their Security Details page for BCSCA indicates:
Quote
Issuer Name BRISCONNECTIONS UNIT TRUSTS
Security Description STAPLED SECURITY PAID TO $1.00, $2.00 UNPAID
Unquote
I'm a bit surprised that CommSec doesn't have this indication somewhere on their website.
PS. Maybe you have some sort of a case against CommSec for not providing all relevant information to their clients. After all, what are you paying brokerage to them for?
I use netwealth Share Trading as my on-line broker and their Security Details page for BCSCA indicates:
Quote
Issuer Name BRISCONNECTIONS UNIT TRUSTS
Security Description STAPLED SECURITY PAID TO $1.00, $2.00 UNPAID
Unquote
I'm a bit surprised that CommSec doesn't have this indication somewhere on their website.
PS. Maybe you have some sort of a case against CommSec for not providing all relevant information to their clients. After all, what are you paying brokerage to them for?
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Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin
I agree, and that was what I meant Rocket about who to complain to. Really it effects everyone as it is about disclosure. Even people not directly hurt by this can complain about it.
I am a commsec customer, (worth very little). How many people on this site use commsec? I'm not saying they're at fault, but if every member wrote to the ASX, or ASIC, or some one, somewhere - at the very least next time they'll be forced to make you sign something or actively acknowledge the implications of your transaction.
Rocket - have you thought about going to Today Tonight or A current affair - maybe publicity would help.
I agree, and that was what I meant Rocket about who to complain to. Really it effects everyone as it is about disclosure. Even people not directly hurt by this can complain about it.
I am a commsec customer, (worth very little). How many people on this site use commsec? I'm not saying they're at fault, but if every member wrote to the ASX, or ASIC, or some one, somewhere - at the very least next time they'll be forced to make you sign something or actively acknowledge the implications of your transaction.
Rocket - have you thought about going to Today Tonight or A current affair - maybe publicity would help.
Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin
There's 300 or so people trying to sell their shares, so thats at least 300 that are in the same boat. Maybe Stuart from the ASA is going to somehow get everyone together as I was thinking the same thing that we all need to fight this together.
Personally, I am still very anxious as there are no buyers, and whilst I am in the queue to sell them I hope the only people that take them off me are Macquarie bank. Thanks for asking..
There's 300 or so people trying to sell their shares, so thats at least 300 that are in the same boat. Maybe Stuart from the ASA is going to somehow get everyone together as I was thinking the same thing that we all need to fight this together.
Personally, I am still very anxious as there are no buyers, and whilst I am in the queue to sell them I hope the only people that take them off me are Macquarie bank. Thanks for asking..
Nyden
G.E. Money Genie
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Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin
I guess my opinion has somewhat changed on this matter - and I now find it quite disturbing that an order of just a few dollars could cost someone thousands in debt.
I hope you're fairing well Rocket, as this sounds like an absolutely terrible position to be in. 4 million in debt for a $2000 order? That is absurdly insane, and the fact that the company is standing by its rights and contract is even more crazy! Do they honestly expect an average-joe with a paltry $2000 in their hot-pockets to pay up 4 million?
I will say, that I (unfortunately) believe the media to be your only option. Getting the sheep on your side will be to your benefit - as it is a scary thought that a life can be thrown into economic ruin for the cost of a shirt
I guess my opinion has somewhat changed on this matter - and I now find it quite disturbing that an order of just a few dollars could cost someone thousands in debt.
I hope you're fairing well Rocket, as this sounds like an absolutely terrible position to be in. 4 million in debt for a $2000 order? That is absurdly insane, and the fact that the company is standing by its rights and contract is even more crazy! Do they honestly expect an average-joe with a paltry $2000 in their hot-pockets to pay up 4 million?
I will say, that I (unfortunately) believe the media to be your only option. Getting the sheep on your side will be to your benefit - as it is a scary thought that a life can be thrown into economic ruin for the cost of a shirt
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Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin
My sympathies to those affected by this ... very depressing situation.
Legally they do have a legit contract, because the conditions are stated in their PDS, however, this is not a normal situation anymore.
Stock owners cannot sell/ no buyers ... Its not a "real" market
MacQuarie selling off all their shares could amount to insider trading considering the current circumstances.
Personally, I can't imagine the company spending the time and money to persue a zillion small shareholders knowing full well that they will only get a very low % of their cash owed anyway, particularly since the issue is underwritten by Mac Bank etc
I think the Company WILL send out letters of demand to satisfy their contractual obligation, but if I were a S/Holder, I'd sit tight (although I would prefer not to have any cash in the bank until the nonsense is cleared up just in case
I wonder if its legal to Cross trade the shares into a Company Account as mentioned in one of the earlier deleted posts? Worth getting some advice on methinks.
The whole fiasco has exposed a serious glitch in the system ...... There should be a provision with share ownership, that the share holder can simply "give" their shares back to the company when no trade is available.
Brisconnections are very adament they have a binding contract that cant be broken...
My sympathies to those affected by this ... very depressing situation.
Legally they do have a legit contract, because the conditions are stated in their PDS, however, this is not a normal situation anymore.
Stock owners cannot sell/ no buyers ... Its not a "real" market
MacQuarie selling off all their shares could amount to insider trading considering the current circumstances.
Personally, I can't imagine the company spending the time and money to persue a zillion small shareholders knowing full well that they will only get a very low % of their cash owed anyway, particularly since the issue is underwritten by Mac Bank etc
I think the Company WILL send out letters of demand to satisfy their contractual obligation, but if I were a S/Holder, I'd sit tight (although I would prefer not to have any cash in the bank until the nonsense is cleared up just in case
I wonder if its legal to Cross trade the shares into a Company Account as mentioned in one of the earlier deleted posts? Worth getting some advice on methinks.
The whole fiasco has exposed a serious glitch in the system ...... There should be a provision with share ownership, that the share holder can simply "give" their shares back to the company when no trade is available.
Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin
If that info is on one of the main research pages then that's good stuff...
The only place I could find any info was in one of the hundreds of announcements on these pages below. I have circled in red where it's mentioned but as has been pointed out to me later it's also mentioned near the top of this particular announcement. I admit that I didn't go through all the announcements, and whilst I did go to the Brisconnections website and browse what the are up to on the investor page, I didn't click on the product disclosure statement.
The bottom line is that as the ASA have mentioned, this info should be on the buy page in flashing lights.
I use netwealth Share Trading as my on-line broker and their Security Details page for BCSCA indicates:
Quote
Issuer Name BRISCONNECTIONS UNIT TRUSTS
Security Description STAPLED SECURITY PAID TO $1.00, $2.00 UNPAID
Unquote
I'm a bit surprised that CommSec doesn't have this indication somewhere on their website.
PS. Maybe you have some sort of a case against CommSec for not providing all relevant information to their clients. After all, what are you paying brokerage to them for?
If that info is on one of the main research pages then that's good stuff...
The only place I could find any info was in one of the hundreds of announcements on these pages below. I have circled in red where it's mentioned but as has been pointed out to me later it's also mentioned near the top of this particular announcement. I admit that I didn't go through all the announcements, and whilst I did go to the Brisconnections website and browse what the are up to on the investor page, I didn't click on the product disclosure statement.
The bottom line is that as the ASA have mentioned, this info should be on the buy page in flashing lights.
Attachments
Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin
This is an interesting article
http://www.abc.net.au/insidebusiness/content/2007/s2420909.htm
Interesting that Mr Rowe from Brisconnections says below with regards to the online brokers that the ticket (I assume he is talking about the buy page) does have a notation about the liability, but as you can see by the screencaps in my first post thats not the case!!
ALAN KOHLER: But you're a director of the ASX. Does the ASX have a role to play in informing people who are buying BrisConnections shares about the instalments?
TREVOR ROWE: The ASX's normal process is about 30 to 40 days before calls are due, they write to shareholders reminding them.
ALAN KOHLER: Before they buy the shares now. Is there a better way for them now?
TREVOR ROWE: Well brokers and financial advisers should be aware of these liabilities that their clients are taking on and they should be advising any buyers of a stock that they have this on call liability.
ALAN KOHLER: Except a lot of trading is on Commsec and e-trade.
TREVOR ROWE: And that's part of the problem.
ALAN KOHLER: And nobody's advising anybody.
TREVOR ROWE: But the ticket does have a notation to it that says there is an on call liability. I can't guarantee that these people, when they buy this stuff, are either being properly informed or they're informed themselves
This is an interesting article
http://www.abc.net.au/insidebusiness/content/2007/s2420909.htm
Interesting that Mr Rowe from Brisconnections says below with regards to the online brokers that the ticket (I assume he is talking about the buy page) does have a notation about the liability, but as you can see by the screencaps in my first post thats not the case!!
ALAN KOHLER: But you're a director of the ASX. Does the ASX have a role to play in informing people who are buying BrisConnections shares about the instalments?
TREVOR ROWE: The ASX's normal process is about 30 to 40 days before calls are due, they write to shareholders reminding them.
ALAN KOHLER: Before they buy the shares now. Is there a better way for them now?
TREVOR ROWE: Well brokers and financial advisers should be aware of these liabilities that their clients are taking on and they should be advising any buyers of a stock that they have this on call liability.
ALAN KOHLER: Except a lot of trading is on Commsec and e-trade.
TREVOR ROWE: And that's part of the problem.
ALAN KOHLER: And nobody's advising anybody.
TREVOR ROWE: But the ticket does have a notation to it that says there is an on call liability. I can't guarantee that these people, when they buy this stuff, are either being properly informed or they're informed themselves
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Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin
I could be wrong, but I think you'll find that Comsec have no responsibility in this instance. They are just the middle man offering a service between the two clients.
I have a "fledgling" legal eagle in the family ... I'll ask their opinion tonight.
I could be wrong, but I think you'll find that Comsec have no responsibility in this instance. They are just the middle man offering a service between the two clients.
I have a "fledgling" legal eagle in the family ... I'll ask their opinion tonight.
Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin
I think you are correct, they have stated that have no responsibility. From what I have been hearing I am stitched up completely from all angles. I think we can all acknowledge that this is just plain wrong, but unfortunately I am not in the right...
Go figure....
I think you are correct, they have stated that have no responsibility. From what I have been hearing I am stitched up completely from all angles. I think we can all acknowledge that this is just plain wrong, but unfortunately I am not in the right...
Go figure....
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Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin
Well now that Rocket's post is back I guess I can restate my view expressed in the earlier post that was removed.
To put it simply, in my view the problem is not with the brokers but with the product. The product became riskier as the price fell and at some point (in my opinion) it should have been deemed to risky to remain available to non-sophisticated retail investors (as opposed to the class of investor that have succesfully met pre-requisite criteria to obtain sophisticated investor status from ASIC).
To me it is irresponsible to offer a product to non-sophisticated retail investors that enables them to incur up to $1,000,000 debt (i.e. both instalments) for a $500 outlay, without requiring them to explicitly acknowledge that they understand the risk involved in the investment.
As I see it the online brokers are non-advice brokers and are simply there to facilitate investment in products that are made available by the ASX.
The best solution would have been to suspend trading in the stock once the price fell to a certain point and the risks began to increase exponentially.
I'm not a lawyer but I would have thought that somewhere there would be investor/consumer protection legislation designed to prevent these sorts of situations occurring that might be able to be used to tackle this.
Rocket it is good to see you are taking a positive approach to a difficult situation. I certainly hope that the whole mess gets sorted out for you.
Well now that Rocket's post is back I guess I can restate my view expressed in the earlier post that was removed.
To put it simply, in my view the problem is not with the brokers but with the product. The product became riskier as the price fell and at some point (in my opinion) it should have been deemed to risky to remain available to non-sophisticated retail investors (as opposed to the class of investor that have succesfully met pre-requisite criteria to obtain sophisticated investor status from ASIC).
To me it is irresponsible to offer a product to non-sophisticated retail investors that enables them to incur up to $1,000,000 debt (i.e. both instalments) for a $500 outlay, without requiring them to explicitly acknowledge that they understand the risk involved in the investment.
As I see it the online brokers are non-advice brokers and are simply there to facilitate investment in products that are made available by the ASX.
The best solution would have been to suspend trading in the stock once the price fell to a certain point and the risks began to increase exponentially.
I'm not a lawyer but I would have thought that somewhere there would be investor/consumer protection legislation designed to prevent these sorts of situations occurring that might be able to be used to tackle this.
Rocket it is good to see you are taking a positive approach to a difficult situation. I certainly hope that the whole mess gets sorted out for you.
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Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin
rocket, i dont know your financial situation, but i'd assume its not in BrisC's/MacBs interest to take a heap of little people to court, people who have no way of paying. once everyone has been processed and declared bankrupt they wont even cover legal fees. so maybe . . . in the end court is unlikely. although, none of this helps at the moment, does it!
I think you are correct, they have stated that have no responsibility. From what I have been hearing I am stitched up completely from all angles. I think we can all acknowledge that this is just plain wrong, but unfortunately I am not in the right...
rocket, i dont know your financial situation, but i'd assume its not in BrisC's/MacBs interest to take a heap of little people to court, people who have no way of paying. once everyone has been processed and declared bankrupt they wont even cover legal fees. so maybe . . . in the end court is unlikely. although, none of this helps at the moment, does it!
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