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BCS - BrisConnections Unit Trusts

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Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

OK, Sunder, there is also a concept of 'just penalty' too.

MCQ promoted their wonderous distribution, then suddenly, as the :fan then the distribution gets canned. The SP tanks and suddenly there is no market to sell the shares. These events are highly unusual, (in fact, has it ever happened before that you just cant sell your shares, other than a trading halt:confused:) And that is solely because of this liability.

I am sure the holders would give away these shares, and another $10,000 with it! But they cant! And that is what takes this situation above and beyond ANY other. They cannot sell the shares they bought AND they have this god-dammned liability. The normal laws of your 'someone has to pay for this and it should be the buyers' is just not on!
 
Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Sunder said:
I'll put my money where my mouth is - I believe the first person to pay for this debacle are BCSCA shareholders, then Underwriters, then the government. Since I am not a BCSCA shareholder, I miss round one, since I'm not a MQG shareholder, I miss round two. Since NSW is a net contributor to QLD taxes, I'll pay in round three. How's that? Totally consistent with my view.

I'm not sure why people are still harping on about "have a heart" "Put yourself in their shoes". You can be sympathetic, while still upholding principles of justice. I am not saying that people "deserve" what's coming to them. I'm saying that people will rightly face what's coming to them. In cases of tradgedy, justice does not always mean everyone comes out scathed only to their degree of complicity, nor does it mean everyone wears the burden evenly.

Let's just say you left a frayed electrical cord crossing the footpath to charge your car battery. It starts raining and a young child gets a nasty non-fatal shock, falls over and fragments their spine up high, and they need life time care - for a full quadraplegic, this is usually about 7 million dollars.

Now, you go to the judge and say "But there is no way I could have known the power cord was frayed. It's not reasonable to check the power cord every single time I use it. And besides, I don't have 7 million dollars, this will bankrupt me!".

Is it fair for the judge to say "Well, I guess it's not your fault, and it's not fair that such a simple mistake will cost you everything. Sorry kid, you're just gonna have to make do with nothing"? This is what you're asking someone to do - take a loss, because your mistake is trivial in comparison to the consequence.

Push this analogy further - there is a victims compensation scheme, an underwriter, if you will, that will give the kid a safety net - a basic level of care even if they can't get compensation. But is it fair to let the other person off totally scott free? Well, no, the law courts will do all it can to get everything it legally can from the "offender", including garnishing wages, before the safety net kicks in.

This is the tried and tested, and "most fair" way of dealing with things, and this is likely how it's going to happen here.

Remember, this is NOT a single party issue. Someone will suffer, and there is a rightful and fair order to this, even if some people will pay disproportionately for their mistake.
Click to expand...

Sunder, I'm not a bcsca holder either, however, I do see this situation differently to your analogy. If it was a brand new electrical lead that was faulty and caused the damage you describe, it would be a different story.

My analogy is more along the lines of a very deep but narrow hole that has been dug in a track used by a only few people. While it was initially dug for an apparently excellent reason, those that created this hole don't want it anymore and neither do their wealthy investors.

It is going to cost too much to fill the hole, so they have all decided to conceal it as best they can. As an added bonus, anyone falling into their trap will have to give up everything to pay the little they do own to the creators of this mess.


So, in my analogy, the victims previously had used the same track for many years before and had no reason to suspect there was a trap. Worse still, the trap was created by wealthy people who are better positioned to recover from their losses than trying to eek out a few tiddlywinks from the unsuspecting victims.

In this situation, it appears on the surface that BrisC, Macquarie, the ASX (linked by Trevor Rowe) and possibly some brokers are fully aware of this bcsca trap for small investors/traders and yet are not prepared to even put a simple fence around it by at least disallowing online trading of this share. It is ironic that someone earlier in this thread said they were able to buy online but had to make a phone call to sell. It shows it can be done - so why isn't it?

At current levels, bcsca is totally different to anything I have seen in share trading due to it's exceptionally low share price which attracts those that don't have much to begin with. Also, it costs so little to buy millions of these shares leaving liabilities that only institutional type investors are equipped to handle.

What I see is wrong is that those who have the power to stop the little people falling in their trap are choosing not to -appears they actually want these victims in their trap - apparently caring not about the lives of these people - their children, their grandchildren. Some may have illness or be struggling with other difficulties in life.

Sunder, I know you don't agree that these folks are victims, but IMHO it is a very grey area when prevention could have been put in place to ensure those investing in this project were suitably heeled.

It may not be illegal, but IMO it does seem incredibly unfair and immoral...

My :2twocents - food for thought...
 
Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

I had a thought, in Sunday's Telegraph was an article about Kevin Rudd injecting 450 million dollars or so into reducing & preventing homelessness in the next 4 years. Well, we may/will have homelessness thrust upon us if this all goes pearshaped. Why don't we offer the shares to the Federal Govt, as a gift, to stop us from becoming homeless, wouldn't that work? That would be under the umbrella of preventing homelessness is effect. It will only cost us a postage stamp to try anyway.
 
Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

FWIW I feel like adding my :2twocents into this. Without going into too much of a sob story, I only started investing 3 months before the big bang and have lost more than half of my entire life savings due to margin lending and really, really bad timing (and a lack of experience which is essentially what I have now paid for). But even with my gung ho attitude, when I saw these bargain shares my 'too good to be true' alarm went off and so I at least did a google and ASF search before buying and found out about the debt thing. Although in retrospect this could be put down to luck as much as smarts, but like I said, I felt the old 'if something seems to good to be true' and did a 5 second search (also because I new that I was so inexperienced and was dealing with a complex thing [i.e. tghe fin markets]).

So my heart truly does go out to you guys that are caught up in this (I have already lost my investment property to the margin loan). I can see both sides of the story however: if you bought the shares blah, blah, blah as Sunder says and I can see his point. But I also can see that you can not normallly get a million $ debt so easily. I would hope that it is that point that you could argue best in a law court, that you really werent aware of what you were getting into (and the pundits will argue that ignorance isnt a defence).

I hope the legal way plays out and the little battlers don't get done for all, but if I were in the boat i would seriously be considering what awg mentioned; i.e. selling a whole stack off to someone who doesn't mind going bankrupt. I don't know if the ASX will be happy with whichever broker organises the transaction (as you wouldnt just be able to sell them on the market), but surely you could find someone who will 'buy' the shares and wont be able to 'pay' the payment.

It seems sleazy and morally wrong for good reason I suppose, but if it were my entiore life savings and house etc on the line I would agree with the morals of taking it all just because of buying $500 worth of shares. Like I said, I hope it wouldn't come to it, but if it were me its an avenue that I certainly would not discount.
 
Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Bushie, that suggestion raises the question of taking your plight to your local MP (federal). Anyone done this?
 
Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

and as a P.S. - why in gods name is the ASX still allowing this to be traded on the open market? Surely sales of this stock should be of an 'organised' matter for the near future, to stop anyone from unwising falling into this terrible hole...
 
Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Rastan said:
FWIW I feel like adding my :2twocents into this. Without going into too much of a sob story, I only started investing 3 months before the big bang and have lost more than half of my entire life savings due to margin lending and really, really bad timing (and a lack of experience which is essentially what I have now paid for). But even with my gung ho attitude, when I saw these bargain shares my 'too good to be true' alarm went off and so I at least did a google and ASF search before buying and found out about the debt thing. Although in retrospect this could be put down to luck as much as smarts, but like I said, I felt the old 'if something seems to good to be true' and did a 5 second search (also because I new that I was so inexperienced and was dealing with a complex thing [i.e. tghe fin markets]).

So my heart truly does go out to you guys that are caught up in this (I have already lost my investment property to the margin loan). I can see both sides of the story however: if you bought the shares blah, blah, blah as Sunder says and I can see his point. But I also can see that you can not normallly get a million $ debt so easily. I would hope that it is that point that you could argue best in a law court, that you really werent aware of what you were getting into (and the pundits will argue that ignorance isnt a defence).

I hope the legal way plays out and the little battlers don't get done for all, but if I were in the boat i would seriously be considering what awg mentioned; i.e. selling a whole stack off to someone who doesn't mind going bankrupt. I don't know if the ASX will be happy with whichever broker organises the transaction (as you wouldnt just be able to sell them on the market), but surely you could find someone who will 'buy' the shares and wont be able to 'pay' the payment.

It seems sleazy and morally wrong for good reason I suppose, but if it were my entiore life savings and house etc on the line I would agree with the morals of taking it all just because of buying $500 worth of shares. Like I said, I hope it wouldn't come to it, but if it were me its an avenue that I certainly would not discount.
Click to expand...

Hi, good to hear from someone who almost bought but investigated further. Obviously thousands over the past 6 months have fallen for this, but thousands also would have looked into it further. Well done in that regard and sorry to hear of your bad luck with your other ventures, I hope it turns around for you...;)
 
Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

i dont think you even need a brokerage of any kind to arrange an "off-market TX".

I believe all necessary arrangements can be completed via the share registry.

at no cost

an SRN will then be assigned to the new owner.

i think it would be wise to ensure the payment was completed electronically by debit from account to account, for proof of genuine transfer.

I dont think it would be wise to use someone who is already bankrupt, as this may not be legal.

I doubt bankruptcy/legal action would be pursued against a derelict.

you just need to start scouring the railway stations/hostels.:(

sounds terrible I know, and I would only even consider it myself, if i felt sure the person understood that their would be a downside, but they still wanted the cash NOW bad enough.

I know for a fact $2000 ( for instance) would be a fortune for some people.

any sort of legal matter would bleed you dry:eek:

I could be incorrect about some of the above statements.

I reiterate, I do not recommend this approach, as such, and would definitely seek legal advice before I went down this track, as well as soul-searching, I only put forward the notion as a possibility
 
Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Julia said:
Bushie, that suggestion raises the question of taking your plight to your local MP (federal). Anyone done this?
Click to expand...

Yes Julia, I have made contact with both Qld Govt MP & Federal Govt MP, they are both pursueing it from their positions. I have suggested to any others caught to do the same as weight of numbers will help in this case.
 
Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

cuttlefish said:
Though to add to that, when I went through the online beginners to shares course that was linked to in that risk section, it does cover the types of shares and in particular mentions contributing shares with these comments:

Contributing shares

* partly paid
* require certain future payments at certain future dates
* shareholders are obliged to pay outstanding capital when due, unless the company is a no liability company in which case shares can be forfeited instead
Click to expand...

Hi, I've been trying to find that section for a week now can you indicate what links to follow to find it please. I have found this page but no mention.
http://www.asx.com.au/products/shares/getting_started/sharemarket_basics.htm#What_are_shares
 
Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

thermalmonster said:
I thought of listing mine on e-bay

But my concience wouldnt let me
Click to expand...

One tactic you folk could employ is simple but costs a few dollars.

Buy up as many Brisconnect shares as you can.

An old adage in banking circles is that the more you owe the safer you are.

Actually increasing your holdings may make you safer from the Macquarie Bank hemlock.

gg
 
Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Garpal Gumnut said:
One tactic you folk could employ is simple but costs a few dollars.

Buy up as many Brisconnect shares as you can.

An old adage in banking circles is that the more you owe the safer you are.

Actually increasing your holdings may make you safer from the Macquarie Bank hemlock.

gg
Click to expand...
Good Lord, gg, that seems incredibly risky!

To the Brisconnections shareholders here, I guess you wouldn't have had much of a Christmas. Do hope the new year will bring some encouraging news. Keep on at your MP's, especially the Qld State one. Maybe also a letter to Ms Bligh?
 
Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Julia said:
Good Lord, gg, that seems incredibly risky!

To the Brisconnections shareholders here, I guess you wouldn't have had much of a Christmas. Do hope the new year will bring some encouraging news. Keep on at your MP's, especially the Qld State one. Maybe also a letter to Ms Bligh?
Click to expand...

Not a bit Julia.

I was once in a business turning over many millions. The banks endured my overdrafts and risky punts with pleasure.

I then temporarily semi retired, lay on the beach and had to queue up with the masses.

The difference in how they dealt with me was amusing and amazing.

So Brisconn holders, one option for you would to buy up, buy often and buy big.

Another option is to have Macquarie heavies come for your Holden or doona.

The more you owe the safer you are.

gg
 
Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Garpal Gumnut said:
One tactic you folk could employ is simple but costs a few dollars.

Buy up as many Brisconnect shares as you can.

An old adage in banking circles is that the more you owe the safer you are.

Actually increasing your holdings may make you safer from the Macquarie Bank hemlock.

gg
Click to expand...


Groves and co will caution you that eventually the banks will come a calling and demand their pound of flesh. If they can shut down the likes of MFS ABC Madoff etc then a few mums and dads will get taken out fairly casually.

GG i trust you were not really serious in recommending that increasing yiur holding ere would offer any shred of protection?

I do understand where you are coming from however the difference is that if there is not a cash machine (ie a going concern that will generate revenues) backing up the investors then the banks will cut their losses and shut anyone they like down. Only reason they will leave you in tact is if they can see a return in the future somewhere which would not be the case here.
 
Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Q

If they take you to the cleaners do you still own your shares?

or are you paying for somthing that you dont own?

Like, (uk) if you were to get repossesed by your mortgage lender the house would have some worth or future worth. The bank could not legaly sell it for less than it is worth, you could contest a stupid price.
You then would have to pay any shortfall once the house was sold.

Therefore perhaps if you (partly) own a million shares in BCSCA perhaps you would be more likely to be able to pay your liability once the market improves? in 2- 5 years time.

Your asset or potential to be able to repay that debt hangs in the success of BCSCA. So what does Trevor Rowe say " The company will make substantial profits whithin the next 5- 7 years."
In that case there best option is to defer any legal proceedings until such time as the company is worth somthing. They have much more chance of recovering the money.
so therefore once the share price exceeded $3.200 you would be able to pay your debt with interest !!! If BCSCA dont believe the share price will ever exceed that amount then the whole bunch of them ought to resign now !!!
 
Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

If going down the bankruptcy path, or wanting information, please refer to

www.itsa.gov.au

Insolvency & Trustee Service Austalia

If I recall rightly, a law firm by the name of Fox Symes (is that right?) does a lot of that sought of thing (although one can fill out the forms yourself).

Lifeline have personnel trained in the bankruptcy area which would cost you nothing for some information. They are busy in that area at the moment because of our current financial climate.

I recall a rule where transfers of assets made within a certain timeframe before applying for bankruptcy are not valid transfers. In this case, I'm unsure how a transfer of these shares would be treated, and way above my area of knowledge.

Not sure if any of the above is helpful, but there are plenty of rules in relation to bankruptcy.

You can call itsa, and ask for a Bankruptcy pack.
 
Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

TheAbyss said:
Groves and co will caution you that eventually the banks will come a calling and demand their pound of flesh. If they can shut down the likes of MFS ABC Madoff etc then a few mums and dads will get taken out fairly casually.

GG i trust you were not really serious in recommending that increasing yiur holding ere would offer any shred of protection?

I do understand where you are coming from however the difference is that if there is not a cash machine (ie a going concern that will generate revenues) backing up the investors then the banks will cut their losses and shut anyone they like down. Only reason they will leave you in tact is if they can see a return in the future somewhere which would not be the case here.
Click to expand...

they are shares like any others on the asx.

buy/sell all reasonable tactics.

hold equally.

they are a dog share though.

if I won the lotto I'd buy every one I could get my hands on.

the banks will be able to bankrupt a few hundred simple souls who bought cluelessly, but a hundred million they would not have the gumption for.

gg
 
Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Hey GG

You dont have to win the Lotto to by them you fool

I reckon you could by 99,00000 of them for bugger all.

I tell you what I will give you mine for nowt, hows that sound.
If you are realy desperate for some theres a guy on ebay selling 775,000 of them but he is charging $349 buy it now.

,.... now why has he not got any bids??????
 

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