BCS - BrisConnections Unit Trusts

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Cobber said:

Has anyone heard of this Ombudsman thing. I was talking to a friend about what is going on and his broker suggested going to the Ombudman - sorry bit naive.

Click to expand...

http://www.fos.org.au/centric/home_...te/how_to_lodge_a_dispute_banking_finance.jsp click on the online dispute form halfway down the page, fill it in and follow the steps.

Also complain to the ASX http://www.asx.com.au/supervision/complaints/company.htm click on the complaint form link

And ASIC http://www.asic.gov.au/asic/asic.ns...mpanies+or+people?openDocument#complaint_form

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

rocket12 said:

Sorry for jacking your post i'm sure Sunder will reply as well. Speeking for myself I wouldn't want anyone else to bail us out other than the QLD government or the underwriters.

Click to expand...

yeah thats cool Rocket i understand what yr saying but if a million punters took 250 shares each and that saved ruining a multitude of lives --- (geez the Gov. would save a fortune on zoloft for a start) then i seriously dont have a prob with that -------- far too much greed in the world as it is ----

and ya never know maybe the shares might be worth more than 2 bucks one day

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Cartman said:

yeah thats cool Rocket i understand what yr saying but if a million punters took 250 shares each and that saved ruining a multitude of lives --- (geez the Gov. would save a fortune on zoloft for a start) then i seriously dont have a prob with that -------- far too much greed in the world as it is ----

and ya never know maybe the shares might be worth more than 2 bucks one day

Click to expand...

Forgot to mention thanks for the offer... And yes the silly thing is the shares if I could afford my 4 million will probably worth more than that one day as it sounds like a very big project...

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Recently on this thread, I suggested a "way out" for trapped investors.

I did so in all seriousness.

method was to conduct an "off-market" transfer to a willing party.

my suggestion was to find an elderly homeless alcoholic

explain to them what it is and why you are doing it.

agree on a sum of money

do the deal.

So long as you determine the person has no assets, income or prospects, then I believe the moral dimension is within the bounds of what i personally would find acceptable.

If my house was on the line....

I have no holding in BrisC

my suggestion is soley for the possible assistance of the several posters who appear to have a problem, (and curiosity)

I think it would be of interest to them if other ASF members posted their opinion on the practicality of this option.

I cant see any administrative or legal obstacle, but there may be some i dont know of.

a desperate measure for sure, but depends on how desperate one feels.

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

awg said:

Recently on this thread, I suggested a "way out" for trapped investors.

I did so in all seriousness.

method was to conduct an "off-market" transfer to a willing party.

my suggestion was to find an elderly homeless alcoholic

explain to them what it is and why you are doing it.

agree on a sum of money

do the deal.

So long as you determine the person has no assets, income or prospects, then I believe the moral dimension is within the bounds of what i personally would find acceptable.

If my house was on the line....

I have no holding in BrisC

my suggestion is soley for the possible assistance of the several posters who appear to have a problem, (and curiosity)

I think it would be of interest to them if other ASF members posted their opinion on the practicality of this option.

I cant see any administrative or legal obstacle, but there may be some i dont know of.

a desperate measure for sure, but depends on how desperate one feels.

Click to expand...

awg, its been tried before.

Its called "Bottom of the Harbour Scheme"

a mate in the late 70's early 80's made a few quid out of it but the regulators followed him with zeal.

I'm no lawyer but I'd look in to it.

gg

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

hey Sunder,
I can understand you taking pitty on Mac Bank IF !
Us punters had willingly and knowingly defaulted on our Agreements.

None of us obviously new about the $2.00 installments.
When you go for a home loan and agree to the repayments, then yes you have defaulted on your agreement, But for ##c# sake we have all been stitched up.
How can someone have a $1M liability at the click of a mouse button with no contract, nothing signed and no credit worthiness check is completely Wrong, Immoral, and extreeemly irresponsible.
If I went on COMSEC now and tried to by $1million of BHP shares the transaction would bounce back the next day because there aint enough funds in the account to pay for it!!
If I then went to comesec for a million dollar loan to by them they would want some pretty dam good security, and the paperwork would be 10 pages thick.

So I urge you to think again about the scenario that is unfolding and put yourself in our shoes for just one moment.

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Garpal Gumnut said:

awg, its been tried before.

Its called "Bottom of the Harbour Scheme"

a mate in the late 70's early 80's made a few quid out of it but the regulators followed him with zeal.

I'm no lawyer but I'd look in to it.

gg

Click to expand...

one VERY important difference?

no tax is avoided

I do not wish to suggest any person pursue an act of illegality, I want to make that perfectly clear, and I am sure no one else does either.

I do not wish to speculate on the morality of actions with regard to any company or shareholder

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Sunder said:

To the people involved in this, it's very personal. To anyone not involved in this, most can see why others should not be made to pay for their mistakes. I will not convince you that this is just a very very very expensive mistake, and not necessarily the fault of anyone else.

Click to expand...

Most? Really? How do you know this? If anything I would have thought that most people not involved would think this is an appalling situation for those involved and should never have been allowed to happen, and that the people who created it should be the one's held responsible.

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

profit off it said:

Most? Really? How do you know this? If anything I would have thought that most people not involved would think this is an appalling situation for those involved and should never have been allowed to happen, and that the people who created it should be the one's held responsible.

Click to expand...

Hey Profit off it - thank you for the vote of confidence. We obviously weren't 'in our right minds' when we searched for relevant info, saw a good project with long term benefits in the real world and in the financial world, and made a judgement call to risk $500 or $1,000 or in some cases more, in an attempt in a bear market to purchase a parcel of shares that could pay dividends in years to come, absolutely no different from any other investor. The kicker is that the debt attached was NOT VISIBLE in all the lead up screens, nor in the available news releases as at 17/11/08, nor in the company reports in Netwealth that sent you to Aspect Huntley for the co. report. (also as at today 22.12.) The poor sucker that purchased today is also a victim of not accessing the obscure warnings, that are 'oh so available' to those who look. (depending on which online trading system he is using.) I hope he finds this thread soon so we can ease his pain with a little support.
As a matter of interest check out Google finance - BCSCA & search to your hearts content, NO MENTION OF $2-00 UNPAID!

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

awg said:

one VERY important difference?

no tax is avoided

I do not wish to suggest any person pursue an act of illegality, I want to make that perfectly clear, and I am sure no one else does either.

I do not wish to speculate on the morality of actions with regard to any company or shareholder

Click to expand...

The idea has merit, and doesn't tread on any legal toes as far as I know. 'Selling' the parcel to some homeless bum on the street/already bankrupt person is in effect almost identical to selling it on market to someone for $0.001. The same way some guy sold it to u on the ASX...

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Prospector said:

But isnt Commsec a negligent 3rd party in not warning you prior to purchase, where NAB and E*Trade did?

Click to expand...

Slater and Gordon are purely looking for holders that used financial advisors or actual live brokers to purchase their shares. And are going to be suing the financial advisors. I assume this senario has happened quite a lot for S & G to take this route.

I feel for any financial advisor or broker caught up in this, their career and livelyhood shot to pieces.

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Possibly

I guess they hold proffesional Indemnitey insurance though?

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

rocket12 said:

Slater and Gordon are purely looking for holders that used financial advisors or actual live brokers to purchase their shares. And are going to be suing the financial advisors. I assume this senario has happened quite a lot for S & G to take this route.

I feel for any financial advisor or broker caught up in this, their career and livelyhood shot to pieces.

Click to expand...

If it were me, I wouldn't just be accepting that from S. & G. Imo Comsec have failed to provide proper disclosure in not clearly stating on the Buy screen that there is another $2 to pay.

As we've already discussed, NAB and E-trade are in the clear over this if what's available on their websites now mirrors what was available when the affected shareholders bought.

Rocket, Thermalmonster et al, have you actually sought any legal advice at this stage? If you have no assets you may be eligible for legal aid. Enquire through your local courthouse. Alternatively seek a 10 minute appt at set fee from a solicitor to briefly outline the situation and get an opinion as to whether they feel there is an option to pursue. If so, they might be prepared to do it on a no win/no fee basis.
These are just suggestions. I don't know whether they are useful or not.

I think it would be worth the cost of a short legal interview to get an objective opinion. In such a stressful situation as this, it's very easy to start going round in circles and lose perspective.

Re Sunder's comments: I understand that what Sunder has said seems lacking in compassion, and possibly as though he/she is being judgemental towards BCSCA holders. I don't think this is how it was meant, but rather is an attempt to offer a purely objective view as to where the debt chips will have to fall if it's not possible to demonstrate liability in terms of broker lack of disclosure, e.g. Comsec.

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

I wonder if the person who bought the $500 worth of shares todays knows hes up for a cool $1 million ..... i think its a disgraceful situation... i think if I had shares in this one id probably wake up every morning and throw up.....

i dunno know who would look at market depth like that and buy a share but my answer would be probably some1 who thought they were risking $500. (what i mean to say is i can understand how people are in this situation even todays poor soul, but todays warning signs are more obvious than those who intitaly took the bait

none the less, my deepest sympathies to all holders. i hope the outcome is good for all

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Cartman said:

are you in Sunder? ----- and i am serious!!

Click to expand...

I'll put my money where my mouth is - I believe the first person to pay for this debacle are BCSCA shareholders, then Underwriters, then the government. Since I am not a BCSCA shareholder, I miss round one, since I'm not a MQG shareholder, I miss round two. Since NSW is a net contributor to QLD taxes, I'll pay in round three. How's that? Totally consistent with my view.

I'm not sure why people are still harping on about "have a heart" "Put yourself in their shoes". You can be sympathetic, while still upholding principles of justice. I am not saying that people "deserve" what's coming to them. I'm saying that people will rightly face what's coming to them. In cases of tradgedy, justice does not always mean everyone comes out scathed only to their degree of complicity, nor does it mean everyone wears the burden evenly.

Let's just say you left a frayed electrical cord crossing the footpath to charge your car battery. It starts raining and a young child gets a nasty non-fatal shock, falls over and fragments their spine up high, and they need life time care - for a full quadraplegic, this is usually about 7 million dollars.

Now, you go to the judge and say "But there is no way I could have known the power cord was frayed. It's not reasonable to check the power cord every single time I use it. And besides, I don't have 7 million dollars, this will bankrupt me!".

Is it fair for the judge to say "Well, I guess it's not your fault, and it's not fair that such a simple mistake will cost you everything. Sorry kid, you're just gonna have to make do with nothing"? This is what you're asking someone to do - take a loss, because your mistake is trivial in comparison to the consequence.

Push this analogy further - there is a victims compensation scheme, an underwriter, if you will, that will give the kid a safety net - a basic level of care even if they can't get compensation. But is it fair to let the other person off totally scott free? Well, no, the law courts will do all it can to get everything it legally can from the "offender", including garnishing wages, before the safety net kicks in.

This is the tried and tested, and "most fair" way of dealing with things, and this is likely how it's going to happen here.

Remember, this is NOT a single party issue. Someone will suffer, and there is a rightful and fair order to this, even if some people will pay disproportionately for their mistake.

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Julia said:

Re Sunder's comments: I understand that what Sunder has said seems lacking in compassion, and possibly as though he/she is being judgemental towards BCSCA holders. I don't think this is how it was meant, but rather is an attempt to offer a purely objective view as to where the debt chips will have to fall if it's not possible to demonstrate liability in terms of broker lack of disclosure, e.g. Comsec.

Click to expand...

Thank you Julia.

I know it seems I'm coming across as not having a heart, but all I'm trying to say is:

Life is unfair, and sometimes we have to pay consequences disproportionate to the action, but it's even less fair to expect someone else to bail you out. They call this moral hazard, and it's a term being thrown around with the bailing out of US banks, who took on risks they didn't understand at the time.

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Sunder said:

Since NSW is a net contributor to QLD taxes, I'll pay in round three. How's that? .

Click to expand...

sounds like how a politician would answer

Sunder said:

Remember, this is NOT a single party issue. Someone will suffer, and there is a rightful and fair order to this, even if some people will pay disproportionately for their mistake.

Click to expand...

firstly, you are a good writer --- you explain your points well --- legally you may be totally right;

My main issue was that the folk on this thread dont need to be depressed any more than they probably already are --- for eg (analogy cause u like them) your daughter runs out on the road and gets both her legs smashed up and also cant walk for the rest of her life ---- yep there are consequences-- bills-- ongoing care etc etc

we all know there are consequences --- what im saying is you wouldnt want your neighbours knocking on your door everyday telling you why kidz shouldnt run on the road --- it serves very little purpose ----

id rather see someone with your obvious intellect trying to look for angles that might give some hope --- im sure u arent trying to be unsympathetic but the proverbial salt in the wound applies bigtime on this one

if these Brisdudes do shaft everyones cash off them and send a few hundred families to the wall it will affect the next generations of all these families as well ---- the social issues alone could end up costing the government more than the whole shabang is worth ----- depression; medical issues; hell what does it cost the community if 2or 3 people suicide because of this nonsense and ill take pretty slim odds that will end up happening ----

nuff ranting from me anyway ---

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Cartman said:

we all know there are consequences --- what im saying is you wouldnt want your neighbours knocking on your door everyday telling you why kidz shouldnt run on the road --- it serves very little purpose ----

Click to expand...

Fair enough.

I just feel our society is coming to the point where anytime something bad happens, someone must be at fault, and someone must pay.

Sometimes, the dice do just come up double ones, and everyone loses.

The sooner we realise this, the sooner we'll clear our courts of vexatious and frivilous litigation cases.

Let's leave it at that, shall we? It seems I have made my point clear, and you have a valid point as well.

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Sunder said:

Fair enough.


The sooner we realise this, the sooner we'll clear our courts of vexatious and frivilous litigation cases.

Let's leave it at that, shall we?

Click to expand...

yeah no worries lets just hope the powers that be can sort the whole mess out

Re: Brisconnections shareholders - financial ruin

Julia said:

If it were me, I wouldn't just be accepting that from S. & G. Imo Comsec have failed to provide proper disclosure in not clearly stating on the Buy screen that there is another $2 to pay.

As we've already discussed, NAB and E-trade are in the clear over this if what's available on their websites now mirrors what was available when the affected shareholders bought.

Rocket, Thermalmonster et al, have you actually sought any legal advice at this stage? If you have no assets you may be eligible for legal aid. Enquire through your local courthouse. Alternatively seek a 10 minute appt at set fee from a solicitor to briefly outline the situation and get an opinion as to whether they feel there is an option to pursue. If so, they might be prepared to do it on a no win/no fee basis.
These are just suggestions. I don't know whether they are useful or not.

I think it would be worth the cost of a short legal interview to get an objective opinion. In such a stressful situation as this, it's very easy to start going round in circles and lose perspective.

Re Sunder's comments: I understand that what Sunder has said seems lacking in compassion, and possibly as though he/she is being judgemental towards BCSCA holders. I don't think this is how it was meant, but rather is an attempt to offer a purely objective view as to where the debt chips will have to fall if it's not possible to demonstrate liability in terms of broker lack of disclosure, e.g. Comsec.

Click to expand...

Personally, I have talked to a few lawers over the phone mainly about the shelf companty stuff, asset protection etc, I have given a couple of them more of a background as to what has gone on and they have indicated we have a path to follow. I didnt wish to sit down however with a lawer and get things rolling on my own.

Quite a few of us now the have hooked up via this forum will be engaging a lawyer in the new year, I am trying to get one of the big gun lawyers M & B but they are so busy pre chrissy, and don't come back until the new year. So will have to wait to make an appointment. Once we have a case started we can get a heap of others to join in with us. Unlike the S & G route none of us want to sue anybody, we just want it proved we don't have a liablity.