Ban Women Soldiers

[Garpal Gumnut]

The latest problems at ADFA make it a nobrainer that women should not serve in the ADF, unless in suitable corps, such as Nursing or Transport.

This politically correct claptrap places young women in danger, in the ballsy world of soldiering. More "scandals" will emerge when young men and women are billeted together in a highly charged situation such as cadet training.

I do wish our politicians could see the error of their ways in this regard.

gg

 

[explod]

As usual, great new thread GG.

But sorry big dissagree on this one.

Make the armies of the world all girls. Will be less pregnancies so reduced population growth; and,

men will not get the blame anymore.

Make men totally redundant so they can join GG on the upper sunshine state bending bananas whilst sobering up.

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

It never ceases to amaze me how we place such stresses on women, expecting them to perform at the same level in soldiering, a profession both brutal and mechanistic, as their male counterparts.

War is ugly, and our soldiers are professionally trained, however, it is unfair to expect women to behave in critical situations with the same vigour as male members of the Defence Force.

gg

 

[Gringotts Bank]

I've seen some female cricket players who could do the job!

 

[tothemax6]

Ah forget it gg, the world doesn't think like that anymore.
Nowadays people have no sense of direction, and no idea how to think or behave. They are all big bags of noise and cognitive dissonance.

The idea of a nation putting its women on the front line of wars is so bizarre and masochist to the logical man, that it's occurrence really is a sign of the times.

But if I must state reasons:
- In simplified terms, the purpose of a soldier is to kill other people to maintain the existence of his nation. That's the ugly truth.
- Men are suited to this job, and women are not, for every possible reason under the sun, from physiology to psychology.
- As additional effect, placing women amongst men, and I'm sure there are lunatics who will debate this, substantially reduces a mans concentration on the 'job at hand'. It also adds new concerns which reduce his ability to fight properly - e.g. a man will for moral reasons worry more about what the enemy soldiers will do to his women than his men.

In short, when a nation takes the position that its women should be on the front line, its probably on the way out anyway.

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

Ah forget it gg, the world doesn't think like that anymore.
Nowadays people have no sense of direction, and no idea how to think or behave. They are all big bags of noise and cognitive dissonance.

The idea of a nation putting its women on the front line of wars is so bizarre and masochist to the logical man, that it's occurrence really is a sign of the times.

We are a young strong nation, and should not be held hostage to basket weavers and opportunists who push a social agenda on our armed forces.

While I respect a woman's right to achieve, the Army or Navy is no place for a woman.

gg

 

[pixel]

It never ceases to amaze me how we place such stresses on women, expecting them to perform at the same level in soldiering, a profession both brutal and mechanistic, as their male counterparts.
gg

Tell that the male members of the DF, gg. Without their attempts to "make a gal" and boasting about it on facebook, the soldiers would be under a lot less stress - regardless whether they're setters or pointers.

But one aspect seems to get lost in the entire discussion about gender equality in the Armed Forces: War being such a brutal, inhumane business, it will attract mostly people with a particular disposition; among that group, actions are driven by testosterone rather than respect for another's delicate psychology.
If we train our soldiers to "kill them before they kill you", yet expect at the same time sensitivity and respect, we're raising a bunch of schizophrenics.

IMHO the Defense Forces need a complete overhaul, rethinking their role from the ground up, with recruitment targets to suit:
Either build a killing machine of brutes that "do unto them before they can do unto us".
Or set up an outfit that brings welfare to our neighbours by building schools, roads and aid depots in case of disasters.
But don't try and tell young people to do both equally well. The few that might be capable of reconciling both attitudes will find far better-paying jobs in Politics and Industry.

PS: The last couple of comtributions - posted while I was typing - seem to prove that my aspect had NOT been lost. I fully agree with tothemax' and your replies.

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

Tell that the male members of the DF, gg. Without their attempts to "make a gal" and boasting about it on facebook, the soldiers would be under a lot less stress - regardless whether they're setters or pointers.

But one aspect seems to get lost in the entire discussion about gender equality in the Armed Forces: War being such a brutal, inhumane business, it will attract mostly people with a particular disposition; among that group, actions are driven by testosterone rather than respect for another's delicate psychology.
If we train our soldiers to "kill them before they kill you", yet expect at the same time sensitivity and respect, we're raising a bunch of schizophrenics.

IMHO the Defense Forces need a complete overhaul, rethinking their role from the ground up, with recruitment targets to suit:
Either build a killing machine of brutes that "do unto them before they can do unto us".
Or set up an outfit that brings welfare to our neighbours by building schools, roads and aid depots in case of disasters.
But don't try and tell young people to do both equally well. The few that might be capable of reconciling both attitudes will find far better-paying jobs in Politics and Industry.

PS: The last couple of comtributions - posted while I was typing - seem to prove that my aspect had NOT been lost. I fully agree with tothemax' and your replies.

TOMMY

by Rudyard Kipling (1865-1936)



I went into a public-'ouse to get a pint o' beer,
The publican 'e up an' sez, "We serve no red-coats here."
The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:
O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away";
But it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play,
The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
O it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play.

I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me;
They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,
But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls!
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, wait outside";
But it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide,
The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,
O it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide.

Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;
An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.
Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, 'ow's yer soul?"
But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll,
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll.

We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,
But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints,
Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;
While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, fall be'ind",
But it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind,
There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
O it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind.

You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all:
We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot;
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool -- you bet that Tommy sees!

A soldiers life is not a happy one.

Leave it to blokes to kill and maim and live to old age with the guilt.

It is no place for women.

gg

 

[NewOrder]

I am not sure if the OP is serious or taking the piss. Surely in 2011 men are not so backward to think that women are not capable of being in the ADF. The latest problem while shocking had nothing to do with the perils or hardships of war or fighting, it was to do with the unevolved male beings that participated.

What about we have higher expectations of men instead of lower expectations of women.

 

[Gringotts Bank]

... or we could search the ranks of the womens' AFL! : Dang, there'd be some big, mean, red-headed Irish women in that lot!

 

[Happy]

Women and men are not equal and I would hate to be left behind wounded, just because female companion could not carry that much weight.

Of course EQUALITY seems to have taken over common sense, logic and we have to live with it.

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

Women and men are not equal and I would hate to be left behind wounded, just because female companion could not carry that much weight.

Of course EQUALITY seems to have taken over common sense, logic and we have to live with it.

We can still protest about it.

I know of nobody in line, in the ADF who supports this policy of placing women in recruit or officer training with men.

Nobody.

Except the slack pigeon chested gits looking for promotion from half colonel.

gg

 

[Julia]

I am not sure if the OP is serious or taking the piss. Surely in 2011 men are not so backward to think that women are not capable of being in the ADF. The latest problem while shocking had nothing to do with the perils or hardships of war or fighting, it was to do with the unevolved male beings that participated.

What about we have higher expectations of men instead of lower expectations of women.

Agree entirely. Just considering this single post from White Goodman:

sluts, they are everywhere

it seems some ignorant people are happy to blame the victim.
I hope you, white goodman, do not have daughters. Or a female partner for that matter. They would inevitably be damaged by your disgusting attitude.

Women and men are not equal and I would hate to be left behind wounded, just because female companion could not carry that much weight.

Of course EQUALITY seems to have taken over common sense, logic and we have to live with it.

I agree with gg's basic premise on physical and probably even emotional grounds.
As Happy says, they are simply not equal.
Plenty of better places for women to realise their full potential.

That, however, in no way excuses the appalling behaviour by the ADF in this case. Good for Stephen Smith.

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

Julia,

Give me one good reason why our Armed Forces should flout millenia of military tradition and have women soldiers.

gg

 

[Julia]

Julia,

Give me one good reason why our Armed Forces should flout millenia of military tradition and have women soldiers.

gg

Why would you ask me to do this?
I just agreed with your premise.

However, if women are employed by the ADF, they should not expect to be treated with disrespect and abuse.

The two issues are quite separate, I would have thought.
i.e. whether women should be part of a fighting force,
and if they are, why should they expect to be abused which is what seems currently to be the case.
For a young woman to be raped and then told to 'suck it up' is utterly abhorrent.

 

[NewOrder]

Julia,

Give me one good reason why our Armed Forces should flout millenia of military tradition and have women soldiers.

gg

Women are intelligent, able, tactical people, they are good leaders and good followers. Women as a generalisation may not be as physically strong as some men but they are mentally as strong and it ain't always brawn (sp) that wins out.
Isn't peace keeping a big part of the ADF? If so then surely women win that one hands down.

Millenia of outdated traditions should always be challenged, unless of course you wish to live in complete stagnation *yawn* There are some pretty foul thought patterns going on in this thread, well outdated viewpoints actually and they need to be challenged.

I am a pacifist by nature and would never join the ADF, not because as a woman I don't think I am capable but because it goes against my core beliefs. I would happily support other women who choose to join.

 

[the phantom]

If women can pass the same physical demanding tasks as men in 'training till graduation' they should be able to serve.

Posting behaviour which would be considered 'private' but x-rated or severely embarrassing due to a personal but normal nature, between either sex, should be considered a criminal breach, and the offender jailed, as the victim has severe damage to their potential life-long career.

I also hope, that those in the forces can respect women not only in their own company, but when they serve overseas ... it is about having morals, if you can not respect the women you serve with, what about other women they deal with.

 

[Neutral]

I don't have a problem with women serving in the ADF. They are & rightfully so precluded from some military roles because of their physical inadequacies amongst other things. ie combat roles etc. But they do play an important role in diplomacy. The pen is mightier than the sword.

The story that has been uncovered by the woman at the centre of the controversy was not played out under any combat nor stressful conditions.

Men & women in the ADF need to co-exist. because that is how the world needs to operate.

That aside, a few questions:

I thought these people were meant to be our future defence leaders in the making and are held up to higher standards than GE's?

Is it an offence to have sexual relations with a colleague in the ADF?

Has the male who posted the video & images been reprimanded for bringing the defence force into disrepute? I thought the military's foundations are that of discipline?

What did the woman at the centre of the controvesy do wrong other than go public with the story as a consequence of no support by the ADF?

For a young woman to be raped and then told to 'suck it up' is utterly abhorrent.

BTW she was not raped. She consented to sex, just not to being filmed and distributed.

 

[Liar's Poker]

However, if women are employed by the ADF, they should not expect to be treated with disrespect and abuse.

Thought I'd give a different slant to this topic:

Firstly, I don't condone this behavior at all, but what if this is the working conditions for everyone. As in, women being treated with disrespect and abuse is being treated equally in the ADF.

I'm interested to know if this kind of behavior has only been brought to light because it happened to a female and was given greater weight accordingly.

I wonder how many male ADF employees have been abused and haven't been heard because they are men.

Anyone who thinks they should be treated equally in an organisation which relies on bureaucracy and ranks to operate is kidding themselves.

Like GG has mentioned above, war is not a place for rational behavior.

-Liar-

 

[Neutral]

I'm interested to know if this kind of behavior has only been brought to light because it happened to a female and was given greater weight accordingly.

I wonder how many male ADF employees have been abused and haven't been heard because they are men.

-Liar-

http://www.news.com.au/breaking-new...hile-in-the-navy/story-e6frfku0-1226035564804

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...ells-of-adf-rape/story-e6freuzr-1226036238200