Australian (ASX) Stock Market Forum

Averaging down experience

First of all, I think you need to have a lot of money to "average" down. So like the other person above said, if you had an allocation percentage to shares of a certain percent of your portfolio and to the particular subclass, you would end up overweight in a falling stock if you keep pumping money in.

Sure, if you are skilled and have the best charting tools and know how to use them, then that can be justified. but for novice investors, dollar cost averaging incredibly risk. I know we are talking about direct share ownership here but if you talk investment funds, it is just a term fund managers use to keep your money in the funds they manage so they can earn fees. I can quote a list of managed funds who were the "darlings' at the time a decade or more ago and featured in money magazine etc whose price has fallen by a half and if you had dollar cost averaged, you would be sitting on a massive unrealised loss.

So to put it simply, dollar cost averaging is a bad idea for inexperienced novices unless you have too much money to play with.

Also, transaction costs do add up in this strategy.

I would like to see someone put a chart up for an investment bank that traded up to 90 bucks a share just before their decline and see if it could have been predicted via charts (the stock is now worth approx $24). If you averaged down, I would see you now having unrealised losses bigger than my current super balance lol and as the famous economist JM Keynes said, in the long run we are all dead so there is next to no chance of that particular stock getting back to 90 bucks. That was a bubble imo.

Back in that period, we all thought Babcock & Brown could be the next Macquarie Bank but if you have averaged down with that one, we all know what the result would be lol They were both considered blue chip so there is no difference whether the stock is blue chip or not when you dollar cost average because poorly managed debt can do disastrous things to any company, but then you also need to learn to read financial statements or you would not understand a company.

Being not afraid to sell when you should is one of the key fundamentals of investing to beat the market. Better lose $2000 bucks than to lose 20,000 and then assess at the bottom whether to get back in again with a clear mind. While gut instinct overwhelms most when a position goes against them and the money involved is large, we need to think logically (or just ask your partner what she thinks about it using a roundabout way).

Preservation of capital should be first and foremost for anyone planning for their future as opposed go speculating or gambling on the stockmarket for quick cash (especially if you are using your SMSF money lol) Better to take the money you save from cutting your unrealised losses and put it to some of the popular super cheap resources stocks and you can make big $$$ in an equally short timeframe. (cheap to me is under $1 per share)


IMO, if you think or believe strongly the stock is going to fall further for a while (after detailed research eg looking at a chart and other evidence), get out of the stock, then sell CFDs on the stock, if cfd exists for it (but obviously don't put your house on it) then exit out at the bottom, then buy back into the actual stock on the up. This strategy will easily recoup any initial losses due to leverage.
 
Another timely thread revival.

(5th-May-2011) So_Cynical,

I have observed that we often have the same buying point on quite a few stocks, due to buying support, however this is not what I would deem to be 'good support' which is what I look for. Good support is support that is reached for the first time after a series of higher highs and higher lows. What you have here is what I call 'poor support' as the previous low was not on the way to a higher high, but a lower high. What I have found is that 'by separating 'support' into 'good support' and 'poor support', the probabilities of trades working are greatly enhanced.
I would have $3.50- $3.80 as the 'good support' level for PTM.

brty

Good call brty :xyxthumbs

The 3.50 > 3.80 area has proven to be support even thought the stock did trade for 1 day at under 3.50.

I have 3 parcels...and im reluctant to buy more as i like to limit myself to 3 parcels, my average price is 4.48 currently an unrealised loss of 14.58% easy to see how 1 more average down at around 3.65 would of been nice...that opportunity may come around again.
  • 4.73
  • 4.39
  • 3.95
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So Cynical
Can you just run me through the trades.
How many at what level
And your thinking going forward.

I note you have added to losses and tied funds up in loss for months.
How do you equate this in your thinking?

How many of these do you have going?

Why did you not sell at the second buy level instead of buying more--- is it that hard to ake a loss?
 
So_Cynical,

I consider that spike down below "good support" to be a warning that the reaction may not be great and the likelyhood of further decline a high probability.

Currently I am in 97% cash after some disastrous trading on my part. I am down 6% for the financial year and cannot see anything that currently warrants going long in. The current situation in markets reminds me of the line from the Kenny Rogers song 'The Gambler'...

know when to walk away and KNOW WHEN TO RUN.

brty
 
So Cynical
Can you just run me through the trades.
How many at what level
And your thinking going forward.

I note you have added to losses and tied funds up in loss for months.
How do you equate this in your thinking?

How many of these do you have going?

Why did you not sell at the second buy level instead of buying more--- is it that hard to ake a loss?

It's very hard to take a loss when you quote your trading statistics in closed trades only! A bit like those insolvent European banks not recognising their loss on the Greek debt. I look at my trading account marked-to-market everyday...and that's the best way to trade imho.

To be fair, PTM is a decent company that is cyclical. The share price will rise in the next bull market. If one is buying with his/her own money then he/she will suffer mostly opportunity cost partly compensated by (hopefully) ongoing dividends.

But the same can't be said to those averaging down in shares that are in structural decline or are running into liquidity events.

I think anyone attempting to average-down should at least learn the ability to distinguish between cyclical downturn or terminal illness...
 
So Cynical
Can you just run me through the trades.
How many at what level
And your thinking going forward.

I note you have added to losses and tied funds up in loss for months.
How do you equate this in your thinking?

How many of these do you have going?

Why did you not sell at the second buy level instead of buying more--- is it that hard to ake a loss?

Thing to keep in mind tech is that im sitting on a 14.58% unrealised loss that's probably closer to 10.5% after dividends and franking credits, overall not a big deal. I didn't sell at the second level because that's not what i do....thinking going forward is that at some point in the future ill exit this in profit or at least break even with dividends.

So_Cynical,

I consider that spike down below "good support" to be a warning that the reaction may not be great and the likelyhood of further decline a high probability.

That was that crazy down 150 points then back up 200 day...PTM wasn't the only stock to suffer a flash crash that day.



It's very hard to take a loss when you quote your trading statistics in closed trades only! A bit like those insolvent European banks not recognising their loss on the Greek debt. I look at my trading account marked-to-market everyday...and that's the best way to trade imho.

To be fair, PTM is a decent company that is cyclical. The share price will rise in the next bull market. If one is buying with his/her own money then he/she will suffer mostly opportunity cost partly compensated by (hopefully) ongoing dividends.

But the same can't be said to those averaging down in shares that are in structural decline or are running into liquidity events.

I think anyone attempting to average-down should at least learn the ability to distinguish between cyclical downturn or terminal illness...

As per usual skc, i cant argue with any of the above :)

My closes trade stats are good because i have alot of open losers (especially in August) but ive recovered somewhat and now the whole portfolio is actually in profit 2.6%

To be fair my closed trade stats also don't include my open (and part open) winners like.
  • EVG 121%
  • PFL 90%
  • HDF 88%
  • BPT 76%
  • SND 68%

The next bullish run up will be when i reap the big rewards of timing and time in the market...as for now ill have to suffer though with the 20 odd % jump in $ dividend yield that ive managed to produce by selling/part selling winners and averaging into losers.
 
But the same can't be said to those averaging down in shares that are in structural decline or are running into liquidity events.

I think anyone attempting to average-down should at least learn the ability to distinguish between cyclical downturn or terminal illness...

Either way you are taking an unnecessary risk skc, you will not find out if it has a terminal illness until its too late, why bother ?
If its going down its costing you money and you cannot tell where the bottom is - simple.


Thing to keep in mind tech is that im sitting on a 14.58% unrealised loss that's probably closer to 10.5% after dividends and franking credits, overall not a big deal. I didn't sell at the second level because that's not what i do....thinking going forward is that at some point in the future ill exit this in profit or at least break even with dividends.

Thats gambling, why even bother in the first place ?
How much of an unrealised is acceptable to you ?

Sorry guys, I just can't get my head around the concept of increasing exposure and risk by buying into something that is decreasing in value and then trying to apply reasoning of any sort to such decisions just seems like you are searching for emotional justification.
 
Sorry guys, I just can't get my head around the concept of increasing exposure and risk by buying into something that is decreasing in value and then trying to apply reasoning of any sort to such decisions just seems like you are searching for emotional justification.

I think averaging down can be useful ... IF the right stocks are chosen.

The following companies, I would happily average down into...

COH - cochlear
BKL - Blackmores
RHC - Ramsey Healthcare
REH - Reece
CSL - CSL
WOW - Woolworths
CPU - Computershare
ABC - Adelaide Brighton
CBA - Commonwealth Bank
QBE - QBE
BHP - BHP
CCP - credit corp
ZGC - Zicom

That is based upon a history of consistent growing earnings over a long period of time, a decent ROE over a long period of time, and a decentish yeild.

IMO (strictly)

1.) If one was to take a 5+year timeframe (minimum).
2.) Position there sizes appropriately. (an absolute must)
3.) Reinvest dividends to further increase there positions in the above companies.
4.) Do the appropriate research to make sure its mostly or only sentiment driving the downtrend.

It would be pretty farking hard to come out of that timeframe, and that selection of companies with a loss ... even more so If you took appropriate hedging through the use of options, or even just set aside a certain amount to put into Australian bonds.

The possible looming correction could present an opportunity for me to pick up companies like those above, at incredibly low prices. An opportunity I will try not to miss. Whether that is achieved by averaging down, reading a chart, or calculating an entry point and MOS, does it really matter if the result is the same ?
 
The possible looming correction could present an opportunity for me to pick up companies like those above, at incredibly low prices. An opportunity I will try not to miss. Whether that is achieved by averaging down, reading a chart, or calculating an entry point and MOS, does it really matter if the result is the same ?

Could you repost that list of stocks above with the "incredibly low prices" alongside each one.
What is an incredibly low price today is likely to be expensive tomorrow.

I watched the ABC 24 Finance program this morning and they had a gentleman on there who has been and investor for 50 years and has recently lost about 30% of his investment on Leighton Holdings.
He is now involved in starting a class action against LEI for inadequate disclosure etc etc.

Seriously, think about it for a minute, something is failing to perform, is decreasing in value and is costing you money but you average down and hang on and then its their fault :banghead:
 
The possible looming correction could present an opportunity for me to pick up companies like those above, at incredibly low prices. An opportunity I will try not to miss. Whether that is achieved by averaging down, reading a chart, or calculating an entry point and MOS, does it really matter if the result is the same ?

Two vastly different methods of trading.
Cant compare each.

My take on Averaging down is that if your wrong about direction from the get go why hold it.
And if your wrong from the get go and keep getting it wrong why through good money after bad.
If its that easy to find that highlighted in Black why not simply wait for THOSE opportunities---and if they prove wrong get the hell out until you can see that the market agrees with your analysis.

If its dropping in price and your expecting it to gain in price --YOUR WRONG!
Drop in the casino and try using Martingale theory on any game in the house.
Unless you have the capital backing of a small country your doomed.

It doesnt matter that your wrong but it does matter how long you remain wrong.

Even if your sure those selected will perform.
 
Two vastly different methods of trading.
Cant compare each.

My take on Averaging down is that if your wrong about direction from the get go why hold it.
It doesnt matter that your wrong but it does matter how long you remain wrong.
How long is it one is wrong?? One day if the price remains the same or drops 3%? One week if the price remains the same or drops 3%?
Prudent to give the trade some room to move in my opinion. So it does not matter how long you are wrong. That saying can boost broker coffers with higher stock trade turnover.

Nice saying for when the market is declining. ;)
 
As per usual skc, i cant argue with any of the above :)

My closes trade stats are good because i have alot of open losers (especially in August) but ive recovered somewhat and now the whole portfolio is actually in profit 2.6%

Didn't know you are so agreeable! :) I was actually hoping you'd pick up on what I was saying... I think your position in PTM has a chance of coming back, but I think it's important to recognise that GFF and APN are undergoing structural, permanent changes for the worse and the fact that they were trading much higher in the past has no bearing on their price into the future.

Either way you are taking an unnecessary risk skc, you will not find out if it has a terminal illness until its too late, why bother ?
If its going down its costing you money and you cannot tell where the bottom is - simple.

I don't really average down. I always thought those average down are just lazy... I much rather research and buy a different share than buy something I've already got. But I do believe there is nothing wrong with "the theory of average down" - i.e. buying companies when they are cheaper even though you already have a position. The underlying thing that's wrong is simply the trader/investor's analysis. And if the analysis is wrong then he/she will lose money on the next pick anyway.

Most people average down because they refuse to believe (or fail to recognise) they are wrong and most average down tragedies come from doing so without due regard to over-arching risk management (i.e. overall position size).

So I do advocate no average down as a blanket rule is most suitable for most people But if one was to average down at all, at least only do so when it is right...
 
How long is it one is wrong?? One day if the price remains the same or drops 3%? One week if the price remains the same or drops 3%?
Prudent to give the trade some room to move in my opinion. So it does not matter how long you are wrong. That saying can boost broker coffers with higher stock trade turnover.

Nice saying for when the market is declining. ;)

Good traders will know how and why their trading profits so they will know exactly how long is too long.

This saying is designed for those traders who feel the pain of the loss they have sustained yet can't bring themselves to realize the loss. Those that bottom draw the ones they should have sold ages ago. Who think only those fools who are selling such a bargain---- value stock--- can possibly be wrong.

Its a nice saying for those who dont understand it and why it's critical to long term success.
 
Sorry guys, I just can't get my head around the concept of increasing exposure and risk by buying into something that is decreasing in value and then trying to apply reasoning of any sort to such decisions just seems like you are searching for emotional justification.

The thought occurred to me the other day that we all want to buy everything cheaper, cheaper flights, cheaper cars, Insurance, tv's, holidays...we look for savings and bargains, go to our favourite car yard and try and talk the salesman down because the guy up the road has offered you a better price on the same flash new car.

We want to buy our dream house cheaper...we want everything cheaper and i want to buy my shares cheaper...if ive chosen to own shares in XYZ and i have an opportunity to buy more shares in XYZ at a lower price then why wouldn't i do that? why would/should i be afraid or fearfully of that?

I cant think of a single thing i don't want to buy cheaper.
 
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