Australian Politics General...

bellenuit · 1 March 2017

Value Collector said:
So how much interest should a depositor earn?

And how much would you have reduced cba's earnings by last year to make their profit reasonable in your view?

If you think their profits are unreasonably high, I assume you invest in them? If the unions think the same, then presumably the super funds under their control over allocated to CBA. Maybe the poor guy who hasn't excess funds to invest cannot take advantage of the excess profits of CBA, but surely fund managers, individual investors and government funds can.

But at the end of the day, those profits aren't guaranteed. And what may look good today may turn out to be a terrible investment tomorrow.

Unless you think the big 4 are colluding in some way to keep profits high, competition will ensure that they average overtime, with the most profit going to the most efficient. It's not as if Macquarie and ING aren't going to capitalise on any over charging (interest rates, fees etc.) and offer a product to undercut.

The more I read your posts, the more it appears to me that you thing that business is an enemy and the better they are as a business, the worst they are for society.

Capitalism has its faults, but the alternative...... enough said.

SirRumpole · 1 March 2017

bellenuit said:
Unless you think the big 4 are colluding in some way to keep profits high,

Now there is an idea. There are only 4 of them so it wouldn't be hard to do.

Tisme · 1 March 2017

SirRumpole said:
Now there is an idea. There are only 4 of them so it wouldn't be hard to do.

Tax by proxy. The higher the profits the higher the take by govt and nobody blames the govt for making policy that encourages it. It's one of the reasons the LNP want the ALP to stop using banks as a weapon in question time.

SirRumpole · 1 March 2017

Tisme said:
The higher the profits the higher the take by govt and nobody blames the govt for making policy that encourages it

Providing the banks are not indulging in tax dodges which wouldn't be beyond the bounds of reality.

Value Collector · 1 March 2017

Interesting Fact, there are 820,000 share holders owning Commonwealth bank shares, and some of those are super funds with 100's or 1000's of members, and some of the holdings are for couples where the are in one partners name.

Add to that the shareholders of the other big banks, and ownership of our banks is pretty spread out across the population, so they aren't just super rich folk taking advantage of society.

bellenuit said:
If you think their profits are unreasonably high, I assume you invest in them?

The Next thing the person then says is, "Nah, shares are to risky", So straight away the person is admitting owning equity in businesses has a higher level of risk than their cash, but they can't seem to admit that this means the person holding the equity taking the most risk in the operation deserves a decent return.

SirRumpole · 1 March 2017

Value Collector said:
but they can't seem to admit that this means the person holding the equity taking the most risk in the operation deserves a decent return.

And the customers can get stuffed, which seems to be the attitude of a lot of businesses these days.

Value Collector · 1 March 2017

SirRumpole said:
And the customers can get stuffed, which seems to be the attitude of a lot of businesses these days.

I bet most of the share holders are customers also.

I am not a CBA shareholder (I have been writing puts on them for 4 years trying to get some shares but haven't got any yet)

I am a CBA customer and I think they offer a great service, at CBA I have multiple bank accounts, Loans, term Deposits, Credit Cards, I Buy shares through commsec, My business has CBA Eftpos terminals, when I travel I use their travel money card, I have a bank guarantee.

I do lots of business through them, I have never felt like I was being ripped off, The relationship is mutual, I benefit from the products offered above.

They treat me well also.

Tisme · 1 March 2017

Value Collector said:
I bet most of the share holders are customers also.

I am not a CBA shareholder (I have been writing puts on them for 4 years trying to get some shares but haven't got any yet)

I am a CBA customer and I think they offer a great service, at CBA I have multiple bank accounts, Loans, term Deposits, Credit Cards, I Buy shares through commsec, My business has CBA Eftpos terminals, when I travel I use their travel money card, I have a bank guarantee.

I do lots of business through them, I have never felt like I was being ripped off, The relationship is mutual, I benefit from the products offered above.

They treat me well also.

You're lucky, the brand I deal with has a bad habit of closing accounts and online access. I think they might have an IBM system running the show.

SirRumpole · 1 March 2017

I do lots of business through them, I have never felt like I was being ripped off, The relationship is mutual, I benefit from the products offered above.

My comment was wider than just banks, but you must be aware of legal actions taken against banks for bad financial advice and illegal fees to name just two.

http://www.smh.com.au/business/bank...ass-action-for-bad-advice-20140515-38dd2.html

http://thenewdaily.com.au/money/finance-news/2016/10/27/cba-customer-refunds/

Hardly ethical behaviour.

Value Collector · 1 March 2017

SirRumpole said:
Hardly ethical behaviour.

Doesn't sound like a clear cut case to me, Some times investors that lose money just want blood, if the investments had gone well they would be bragging at BBQ's about how smart they were.

But even if this "Rogue" financial planner (Articles word, not mine), was doing the wrong thing, you can hardly Tar the entire company with the same brush.

I mean CBA has Multiple different businesses, and thousands of employees are you saying that all these businesses and staff are unethical.

At the end of the day, its the investors responsibility to understand what they are investing in, going to an advisor is not a licence for ignorance about where you money is going.

SirRumpole · 1 March 2017

Value Collector said:
I mean CBA has Multiple different businesses, and thousands of employees are you saying that all these businesses and staff are unethical.

A company is responsible for the actions of its employees by clearly defining a corporate culture that determines how its employees treat their customers. That clearly wasn't done (or it was and the culture was to rip people off as much as possible) and the management and shareholders have to cop the consequences.

At the end of the day, its the investors responsibility to understand what they are investing in, going to an advisor is not a licence for ignorance about where you money is going.

That's a logical fallacy. If you pay an expert for advice you expect that expert to serve your interests. You shouldn't have to have medical qualifications before you see a doctor, or a mechanical engineering degree before you see a car mechanic.

luutzu · 1 March 2017

Value Collector said:
So how much interest should a depositor earn?

And how much would you have reduced cba's earnings by last year to make their profit reasonable in your view?

How about Inflation +1%.

To say that a bank is being fair in paying practically nothing, less than nothing, for people's money... that's just absurd. That's special interest talking, not fairness.

Where do you get off saying depositors are getting a good deal because their money is safe and they get access to the ATM, and yea, NetBank and bank statements too.

First, those also costs money after a certain number of usage. Not free. Bank statement being posted does get a $2 charge.

Don't mistake the fact that people have to put up with these because they have to, don't mistake that as them thinking it's fair or liking it. They have no choice, and the few banks that's left knew it.

It's just an abuse of their position.

luutzu · 1 March 2017

Value Collector said:
So how much interest should a depositor earn?

And how much would you have reduced cba's earnings by last year to make their profit reasonable in your view?

The banks can earn as many billions as it can, just why does depositors have to pay for it?

Should I now go and tell the banks to not pay me the 1.7% interests... all so they can be stronger and better help the Australian economy?

luutzu · 1 March 2017

sptrawler said:
Like I said the banks make billions of profits, but they lend trillions to make it and most people feel safe leaving their money in there.
It is a fine balance, but no one has to use them, save the money and buy for cash. Lots of migrants in the 50's did that, I think a lot of Asians do it now, but the Banks do have to make money to lend money and give people confidence to deposit money.
Just check out what happened in Greece, Italy, Spain, U.K, USA, during the height of the GFC

Most people have to use the bank. To get paid from a job, to cash a cheque [unless you want a high fee to get cash out right away], to receive anything from the gov't...

So banking isn't really an option in most cases.

Yes there's the option of not putting money in the bank; put it under the mattress and guard it.

But that's not good enough a reason to say that the bank provide security for your cash. Yes, that's its job. It's like when you lend me your money, I better keep it safe. I can't turn around and say, sorry dude I lost your cash... we're cool?

So the bank can't use the very basic requirement for people lending it money to justify its gouging.

I mean, say you were to lend me, a bank, money... then I have the nerve to tell you that all the time I'm spending to take your money, it's not free man; all the effort I took to ensure your money given to me is safe, not free either... So i'll deduct that from whatever payment I'll give you.

Then I use your money, lend it to someone else at two to three times the costs... then pull the same stunt. Account keeping fee blah blah.

Should you feel sorry now that I spent all that time taking your money and making more money with it? Paying you nothing?

Yea sure.

luutzu · 1 March 2017

Value Collector said:
Doesn't sound like a clear cut case to me, Some times investors that lose money just want blood, if the investments had gone well they would be bragging at BBQ's about how smart they were.

But even if this "Rogue" financial planner (Articles word, not mine), was doing the wrong thing, you can hardly Tar the entire company with the same brush.

I mean CBA has Multiple different businesses, and thousands of employees are you saying that all these businesses and staff are unethical.

At the end of the day, its the investors responsibility to understand what they are investing in, going to an advisor is not a licence for ignorance about where you money is going.

What's with blaming the victims?

My wife used to work at a bank. They don't play nice with their customers man.

Customers are sales target, not people who really could use a helping hand.

sptrawler · 1 March 2017

luutzu said:
Most people have to use the bank. To get paid from a job, to cash a cheque [unless you want a high fee to get cash out right away], to receive anything from the gov't...

So banking isn't really an option in most cases.

Yes there's the option of not putting money in the bank; put it under the mattress and guard it.

But that's not good enough a reason to say that the bank provide security for your cash. Yes, that's its job. It's like when you lend me your money, I better keep it safe. I can't turn around and say, sorry dude I lost your cash... we're cool?

So the bank can't use the very basic requirement for people lending it money to justify its gouging.

I mean, say you were to lend me, a bank, money... then I have the nerve to tell you that all the time I'm spending to take your money, it's not free man; all the effort I took to ensure your money given to me is safe, not free either... So i'll deduct that from whatever payment I'll give you.

Then I use your money, lend it to someone else at two to three times the costs... then pull the same stunt. Account keeping fee blah blah.

Should you feel sorry now that I spent all that time taking your money and making more money with it? Paying you nothing?

Yea sure.

Don't forget, they are a business, not a public service.
They provide a service, and charge for it, same as a multitude of other companies.

luutzu · 1 March 2017

Value Collector said:
Interesting Fact, there are 820,000 share holders owning Commonwealth bank shares, and some of those are super funds with 100's or 1000's of members, and some of the holdings are for couples where the are in one partners name.

Add to that the shareholders of the other big banks, and ownership of our banks is pretty spread out across the population, so they aren't just super rich folk taking advantage of society.

The Next thing the person then says is, "Nah, shares are to risky", So straight away the person is admitting owning equity in businesses has a higher level of risk than their cash, but they can't seem to admit that this means the person holding the equity taking the most risk in the operation deserves a decent return.

So 820K people own "some" of CBA; assuming similar numbers also own the other banks... that's 3.2M.

They're not all Aussies aren't they? Some might hold more than just the one bank stock.

So maybe half of that 3.2M, or 1.6M aussies are risk-takers and what's good for the banks is good for them.

What's the population of Australia? 22M?

That's not the benefit of the few at the expense of the many?

luutzu · 1 March 2017

sptrawler said:
Don't forget, they are a business, not a public service.
They provide a service, and charge for it, same as a multitude of other companies.

Yes I realise that.

That's why I told VC before that it's fair enough to say that that's how it is, that's how the world works. That banks take advantage of people because they can.

But he's arguing that depositors are having a good deal and the banks are barely making it.

luutzu · 1 March 2017

Value Collector said:
Doesn't sound like a clear cut case to me, Some times investors that lose money just want blood, if the investments had gone well they would be bragging at BBQ's about how smart they were.

But even if this "Rogue" financial planner (Articles word, not mine), was doing the wrong thing, you can hardly Tar the entire company with the same brush.

I mean CBA has Multiple different businesses, and thousands of employees are you saying that all these businesses and staff are unethical.

At the end of the day, its the investors responsibility to understand what they are investing in, going to an advisor is not a licence for ignorance about where you money is going.

Most people are ethical. Just when the ethics of the company is unethical, it pushes them to do unethical things.

Like the big aussie banks giving bonuses to "financial advisors" who make the most sales, rather than to those who find suitable products.

Or Wells Fargo in the US deciding that each bank counter employee have to open 8 bank products per customer or something. That if they don't, they'd get fired. If they do, they get a bonus.

So faking bank account opening, fake buying new bank credit accounts etc. etc.

sptrawler · 1 March 2017

It is the same with all businesses, I have a car and I needed a part, the spare parts person said I had to buy the whole assembly for $1000. Therefore I direct purchased it from overseas for $50 to my door, why should the dealer be allowed to gouge me?
I think, from memory the banks interest margin is about 2%, that isn't outrageous.
The interest on credit cards is, but nobody is forcing people to use them, a lot of the problem is the want it now mentality.IMO

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