Australian Job Losses

[Klogg]

LOL! nice one. In all seriousness, even with career specific degrees, the promise of a career, good money and job security are no longer a given. Don't know of any jobs that will get you to 100K out of uni and not many that will get you even close 3-4 yrs in.

Maybe it's just me but the whole go to uni get paid well thing is on its head in Oz.

There aren't any that will get you 100k out of uni (and there shouldn't be), but 3-4 years in you can definitely get it.
I can honestly say IT offers more than this after 3-4 years.

The problem arises when you study a course that has no future. How does someone who studies an Arts offer a service worth $100k a year? (I'm talking about the majority, not a couple outliers)

 

[FlyingFox]

There aren't any that will get you 100k out of uni (and there shouldn't be), but 3-4 years in you can definitely get it.
I can honestly say IT offers more than this after 3-4 years.

The problem arises when you study a course that has no future. How does someone who studies an Arts offer a service worth $100k a year? (I'm talking about the majority, not a couple outliers)

I know there are options. I didn't say there weren't any. As for IT, it depends really on whether you picked up a niche market or not. A while ago SAP, Oracale DB etc were paying small fortunes but generally speaking this is not the case.

 

[Julia]

I still think the main reason we're seeing declining outcome levels is due to parenting, and home life in general, rather than the quality of our teachers. Next most significant reason is changing expectations/workloads of teachers. I think any change in the quality of our teachers over the last few decades is of least significance. Still important, and they have tried to address that with the entrance exam (in QLD at least) implemented 3 or 4 years ago, but still not the greatest determining factor.

I think we should agree to disagree on this. I gather you are very young if your preceding generation was educated in the 70's. You might have some quite different views after a couple more decades of experience.
Thanks, anyway, for the discussion.

 

[Smurf1976]

So far as the trades are concerned, you'd be amazed at how many apprentices don't end up completing their trade with the dropout rate close to 50%.

And of those that do complete, many more will be doing something unrelated just a few years later. Some will stay on the tools, some will move into related supervisory, financial or management roles but a lot will be doing something totally unrelated within a few years.

I don't know what the figures for uni are, but anecdotal evidence seems to be that a great many people will, within a few years at most, not be using their education to earn an income. There seem to be many who go through uni and then end up employed in a field pretty much unrelated to their uni education. I'm not arguing that it's wrong or right, just observing.

So far as primary and high school education is concerned, I think that much of the problem stems from the willingness to pass students who don't really measure up. When I was at school, it was always made very clear that if you didn't pass then you would FAIL and that this would bring adverse consequences. These days, there seems to be a reluctance to actually FAIL anyone, and that removes the incentive to do well.

Suffice to say that I remember quite well being "on detention" at lunchtime for having failed spelling or other tests. Yes, he was a fairly "hard" teacher but he got results and nobody seemed to suffer any harm from his methods. Suffice to say that he was very focused on producing students who could read, write, do maths and so on. He was also adamant that everyone needed to learn to type, since computers were coming in, and that we ought to understand finance and the stock market too. This was in grade 5 by the way.

 

[Zedd]

I think we should agree to disagree on this. I gather you are very young if your preceding generation was educated in the 70's. You might have some quite different views after a couple more decades of experience.
Thanks, anyway, for the discussion.

Always the ageist Julia. Always disappointing to have that thrown in your face, but impossible to refute. Maybe I will have a different opinion in a few decades.

I think we both agree there's been a decline in average literacy and numeracy standards.
If we're going to agree to disagree could you at least clear up in what order of significance you place the blame vs my own opinions of:
1. Decrease in parenting (ie. encouraging the practice of literacy and numeracy skills at home)
2. Increased workload of teachers
3. Decrease in literacy and numeracy skills of teachers

 

[brty]

If I could just put my 2c worth in the teacher discussion...

2. Increased workload of teachers
3. Decrease in literacy and numeracy skills of teachers

It is quite clear in a free market that teachers are underpaid. If we, the collective we, want the best people teaching, then they need to be appropriately compensated for doing so. Currently they are choosing other professions. A classic case of if you pay peanuts you get monkeys.

The increased workloads of teachers is another aspect that is greatly overlooked. For years teachers pay rises around the country have been linked to 'productivity increases'. Compared to many professions teachers have been falling behind in relative terms in both wages and job satisfaction. Therefore the standard of teachers must fall/has been falling.

 

[johenmo]

If we're going to agree to disagree could you at least clear up in what order of significance you place the blame vs my own opinions of:
1. Decrease in parenting (ie. encouraging the practice of literacy and numeracy skills at home)
2. Increased workload of teachers
3. Decrease in literacy and numeracy skills of teachers

Teaching is of interest to me because I grew up with teachers (not one myself) & know a few. The older primary school teachers have remarked to me that kids arrive at primary school with poor or no literacy or numeracy abilities more often than they used to. How much effect has the shift to two income families & daycare had on this? More than we'd like to admit, I feel. This is not to denigrate childcare - but they aren't set up to teach.

Stats exist to show the children of lower decile families don't arrive at school with as good a skills as kids from higher decile families - & there are always exceptions. I agree with the #1 above being #1 because a) without parental expectations, the teacher's efforts can be futile and b) the foundation CAN be created at home before starting education. The expectation from asian parents is generally much, much higher. Our expectations and help helped our son move his english scores from C/C+ to B+ to A+ range.

#3 - there are & have been a few maths teachers who are brilliant mathematicians but are crappy teachers. This was also the case when I was at school decades ago. Teaching/training is not the same as imparting or delivering information.

Administrative workload/red tape is undeniably increasing. More focus on the process than the original objective IMO.

 

[Julia]

Always the ageist Julia.

Not at all. And I'm not 'throwing your age in your face'. Be glad you still have most of your life ahead of you. I know how little I appreciated that reality when I was your age. Ask anyone in the baby boomer generation if their views about much have altered since they were 20 and I doubt too many will say no.

I think we both agree there's been a decline in average literacy and numeracy standards.
If we're going to agree to disagree could you at least clear up in what order of significance you place the blame vs my own opinions of:
1. Decrease in parenting (ie. encouraging the practice of literacy and numeracy skills at home)
2. Increased workload of teachers
3. Decrease in literacy and numeracy skills of teachers

I'm not a researcher or a sociologist so I can't say. My recent experience (over the last decade) has only been in mentoring programs in public schools, both primary and secondary, where I'm seeing children already determined to be disadvantaged. I've certainly not found any of these kids to have come from a stable, two parent family where education was highly valued and some of them have been fighting massive disadvantage with single parents who have multiple addictions and almost zero parenting skills.

The schools are also in a demographic which is socially and culturally disadvantaged.

I also know children of friends who are just as literate and socially adept as any parent would wish, having enjoyed modelling and encouragement from parents who value education highly.

And then I suppose lots of kids in between these two levels.

So I really don't think I could prioritise which of your proferred reasons is dominant. They largely feed off one another. A great teacher will have more capacity to inspire the desire to learn, to influence parents who often are well meaning enough, just lack the understanding of how to best help their children.

But I stand by the fall in at least literacy amongst teachers trained in the last 15 or so years, perhaps longer, and believe raising the entrance standard would be a good start. Brty and johenmo make good points also.

Sorry if this answer lacks the absolute clarity you want. I don't see the issue as black and white.
(The older you get the more you recognise the shades of grey.)

 

[rryall]

Telstra axes 1100 jobs

http://www.theage.com.au/business/telstra-axes-1100-jobs-in-restructure-20130925-2udqw.html

 

[Uncle Festivus]

Our politicians are asleep at the wheel again - what's it gonna take for them to do something about this!

QANTAS engineers have slammed the airline's decision to close its maintenance base at Avalon next year, saying it will rip $50 million out of the Victorian economy.

Qantas Domestic chief executive Lyall Strambi announced today that the airline plans to close the heavy engineering base near Melbourne from next March at the cost of up to 300 jobs because there is not enough work to keep it going.

Technology giant IBM has quietly slashed its Australian workforce, with anxious staff preparing for up to 1,000 more redundancies, the ABC understands.

TOYOTA will axe up to 100 jobs and must slash the cost of building cars in Australia to ensure the future of its local manufacturing operations.

The Simplot vegetable processing facilities at Bathurst, NSW, and Devonport, Tasmania, will both remain open for at least three years.

However, the Bathurst plant will have the amount of vegetables it processes slashed by 50 per cent after this growing season.

The Bathurst plant will also see 110 of its 170 jobs cut in an effort to restrict operations to normal working hours.

Household appliances company Electrolux has announced it will close its factory at Orange in the central west of New South Wales in 2016.

The decision, made by the Swedish company in Stockholm, will mean the loss of around 544 jobs at what is the last refrigerator manufacturing operation in Australia.

STAFF at a major Bathurst employer face an uncertain future after Downer EDI yesterday announced a major review of its operations.

About 100 employees could be out of work before Christmas if the company goes ahead with plans to close its Bathurst facility.

Etc Etc!!

 

[MrBurns]

I think they have to develop something we can export and employ people themselves but they only seem interested in their own employment.

 

[IFocus]

Our politicians are asleep at the wheel again - what's it gonna take for them to do something about this!

Etc Etc!!

Latest jobs numbers were horrendous with full time work being replaced with part time work plus the high rate of youth not having full time jobs or career paths.

It is a US style economy we are growing here.....sucks

 

[DB008]

QANTAS engineers have slammed the airline's decision to close its maintenance base at Avalon next year, saying it will rip $50 million out of the Victorian economy.

Qantas Domestic chief executive Lyall Strambi announced today that the airline plans to close the heavy engineering base near Melbourne from next March at the cost of up to 300 jobs because there is not enough work to keep it going.

Were the unions demanding some outrageous pay-rises (~30%) recently?

 

[Smurf1976]

At work I deal with various suppliers, contractors etc and the story is the same with most of them. In short, things are pretty quiet so far as business is concerned.

Small contractors, big contractors, even government. It's the same story - not a lot is happening so far as engineering works, construction etc are concerned. It's the same pretty much everywhere - no money, downsizing etc.

For one example (I won't name the company) but it's a local engineering business here in Tas. A few years ago they had contracts worth $ millions and didn't really do small jobs at all. This week I gave them a small job worth just $300 and they bent over backwards to do it rather than risk me giving it to someone else. Like pretty much everyone else in this line of work they are desperate for whatever work is available.

 

[poverty]

Too many unions have been pricing their own workers out of a job for too long. You will notice that these industries that shut down like Auto workers or Airliner maintenance workers end up on extremely comfortable salaries as their employer shuts up shop and offshores their jobs! Gee, maybe we could have forgone that last pay hike?

 

[FxTrader]

Too many unions have been pricing their own workers out of a job for too long. You will notice that these industries that shut down like Auto workers or Airliner maintenance workers end up on extremely comfortable salaries as their employer shuts up shop and offshores their jobs! Gee, maybe we could have forgone that last pay hike?

Such an errant, simplistic view of the local labor market and the usual vilification of unions is all to typical. The real problem is globalization and the labor arbitrage opportunities it delivers to an amoral business community intent on maximizing profit by reducing costs.

Plenty of non-union members of the workforce are losing their jobs to offshoring since it's so much cheaper to pay an Indian, Filipino, Chinese etc. worker to provide skilled labor at wages that would in many cases condemn one to poverty here. This is a mega trend that has been transforming the world economy into a wonderland for the exploitation of cheap labor and wealth transfer to the 1%. The consequences for countries like Australia are clear, innovate and educate or suffer the inevitible decline in living standards we have grown accustomed to.

 

[satanoperca]

The consequences for countries like Australia are clear, innovate and educate or suffer the inevitible decline in living standards we have grown accustomed to.

Innovate and educate faster than the other countries or you will still see a decline in living standards. But then again we have dirt to sell for the mean time.

I have watch the manufacturing sector move to East Asia over the last twenty years, now it is the white collar professional sectors also been sent overseas, graphic design, website development, accounting services, legal services etc.

I gave up the fight and joined the rest. I outsource most of my business activities to east Asia.

And if you think Australia is the only one effected here is a story from another country. This year I joined in partnership with a Malaysian web development company with 15 employees. The current owner, Chinese Malay has in the last two years setup an office in Burma as the cost of labor is to high in Malaysian for him to be competitive selling web based solutions to east Asian countries. Currently 9 university graduate in Burma, cost per graduate, approx $400 US a month. Now, I can already guess what people are going to say - exploitation. Go say that to the Burmese, they are happy to have a job and in their country it is a well paying job. Don't they deserve to have the same living standards as us in Australia, haven't they been fighting for the right for higher living standards with their lives for some time.

So where does this leave the average Australian worker, adapt or perish. I watch the news about factory closing down, the attitude of the average worker is they have some right to have a job. They better learn, that it is privilege to have a job and one must work for it.

If Australia is going to survive in the new world order, workers need to be flexible and constantly learning new skills, we also need to reduce the burden in this country of social welfare and hand outs. Don't want to work, then don't, starve as this is the platform we are competing on.

Cheers, off to Vietnam to see my dentist. Woops, let that out, why pay exorbitant dental fees when you can have the work done by equally trained Dentists in another country and have a holiday at the same time. Also to catch up with two graphic design firms I use in Ho Chi Minh City.

Cheers

 

[ROE]

There is a trend in crowded sourcing in white collars jobs for highest talent with cheap labour
All done via the Internet and the work can be 50-80% cheaper than sourcing it in
Australia but this is in early stage, this will build momentum in the next decade

Got a friend who start a business based on this idea and he isn't done too bad out of it
He can out bid anyone on price as he has talented labor oversea ready
To work at a fraction of Aussie price... They are highly skill people in
Russia, Romania, China and Philippines etc...

He take the job and he delivered the result all without Aussie workers.
Can't stop the trend and changes...just have to go with it and find other way to make money...
There is no way Australia can maintain the current pay rate
I say it will drop in the next decade

 

[Smurf1976]

At some point I think we'll see serious calls for protectionism. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, it's just what I see in the future and here's why.

Most people who make decisions of broader significance, be they politicians, senior mangers etc, have a background in something else. And that "something else" is in most cases a white collar profession. There are exceptions, but most senior managers or bureaucrats didn't spend their 20's and 30's working on a production line or in any job that requires the use of tools. More likely, their background is in law, finance, administration, accounting, medicine or some other white collar profession or clerical role.

In my experience at least, people who move onto other things later in their careers usually don't turn against their former occupation as such. There are exceptions, but most don't seek to destroy their own former occupation.

We've been losing factory jobs since the 1970's at the hands of increasing global trade and that is well known. But most managers and politicians are not former factory workers such that they feel no real personal connection to manufacturing. At best, they might have had a white collar job with a company that used to manufacture locally, but in most cases they didn't work on the production line as such. It is thus easy to feel no real connection to it.

But we are now set to do to white collar professions what has already been done to manufacturing and that is to offshore much of it. Trouble is, the people making the decisions at high levels (especially politics) in most cases do have some sort of personal connection to these occupations.

Already we see a few rumblings about the reality that plumbers, electricians etc (difficult to offshore further given that manufacturing is already mostly gone) are seeing their incomes rise relative to many white collar jobs which are now becoming subject to offshore competition.

Maybe I'm wrong but I suspect that if you are a former administrative worker then you have a certain view of where that job sits in society. The idea that a tradesman or even a truck driver (no offence to anyone - my own background is as an electrician) is worth more in the market than someone who went to uni for 4 years doesn't sit too well with many people. And those people are the ones who end up in senior positions or politics and call the shots.

Add in the huge mortgage debts these days and I think things will get interesting and we'll see some sort of move toward protectionism not necessarily in traditional areas (eg manufacturing) but in white collar roles. The mechanism is difficult to see, but I can certainly see a desire on the part of many to do it.

Australia is no longer competitive at practically anything. We certainly aren't at manufacturing or practically anything that's done in an office. We can't even put frozen vegetables in bags competitively. Even with mining, the gas industry is now struggling to compete. All of which leaves us with very few options.

The former factory jobs have already been replaced with tourism, lawn mowing and all sorts of other services but there's really nowhere for the white collar workers to go once their jobs go offshore. At least there isn't unless we can somehow make it work with practically everyone employed in physical service delivery (ie not in an office or factory) with a few iron ore and coal mines paying the bill for the whole lot. I just don't see that working out too well, at least not in the longer term.

 

[Whiskers]

Such an errant, simplistic view of the local labor market and the usual vilification of unions is all to typical. The real problem is globalization and the labor arbitrage opportunities it delivers to an amoral business community intent on maximizing profit by reducing costs.

Plenty of non-union members of the workforce are losing their jobs to offshoring since it's so much cheaper to pay an Indian, Filipino, Chinese etc. worker to provide skilled labor at wages that would in many cases condemn one to poverty here. This is a mega trend that has been transforming the world economy into a wonderland for the exploitation of cheap labor and wealth transfer to the 1%. The consequences for countries like Australia are clear, innovate and educate or suffer the inevitible decline in living standards we have grown accustomed to.

Yes, living standards, or more specifically the moral and ethical standards of government is the common denominator... not unions, or lack of.

In the countries where multinationals send the work for cheap labour, too often it's virtual or actual slave labor... because the regulatory authority and rule of law is far less established and enforced. Corruption and financial power yields them more financial gain there than they can get here. Hardly a justifiable reason to allow corporations to shift labour offshore in this day and age without some sort of ethical and social strings attached to them and or foreign aid to the other country.

I also agree we need to continue to innovate and ensure our politicians support the scientific and research infrastructure for that.

But too often we forget about the effect of monetary policy. That can make or break the cost of labour and cost of imports, both. Look at how hard the US has been playing monetary policy to protect it's economy and others are starting to retaliate in the currency wars.

It seems to me that our monetary policy is focused too much on the best interests of our major financial institutions than the long term interests of our manufacturing and exporting industries. We see too much boom and bust in local manufacturing and exports v imports.