Asylum-seekers 'dead, missing' in explosion on way to Christmas Island

Underpants Gnome said:

'evening robandcoll,

If anything, I think that kind of supports what I'm saying. Because of that experience your judgement might be clouded and maybe you're tarring all refugees with the same brush (whether you realise it or not). It's also possible they had plans to move on from the beginning but there would have been no point if there was a chance of being deported soon.

And that's what I took issue with in the first place - people making instant judgement calls based on their own prejudices before any of the facts were even made clear.

All this in a country that supposedly supports the principles of innocent until proven guilty, and a 'fair go' for all.

Julia - they'd probably have trouble with the metal detectors carrying all that gold!

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If you saw a Lion in the park and said "watchout it's dangerous" would you be biased and prejudiced to that animal?

From ABC, 20 Feb. 09
GOVT 'MAY BE LIABLE' FOR BOAT BLAST COMPENSATION

A human rights lawyer says the Federal Government could be liable to pay compensation to the families of those killed and injured after the Ashmore Reef asylum boat explosion.
The blast killed three of the 47 Afghans and two crew on board and the Defence Department says two others listed as missing are presumed dead.
Forty-one boat blast survivors remain in three hospitals.
● 23 in Royal Perth Hospital; all have been operated on and are in a stable condition.
● Seven in Royal Brisbane and Women's Hospital. Four remain in critical condition and are in induced comas. Five have developed blood infections.
● 11 in Royal Darwin Hospital; all are in a stable condition.
● Three released into the custody of the Department of Immigration and Citizenship.
● Three killed, two missing and presumed dead.
Sources have told the ABC some of the asylum seekers poured fuel onto the boat as a threat before the blast.

But Greg Barnes from human rights group Rights Australia says because the boat, known as SIEV 36, had been taken into custody it may emerge the Navy had a duty of care to the asylum seekers.
Mr Barnes says there could be grounds for compensation.
"One of those could be that the Navy didn't exercise its duty of care sufficiently or was negligent in the way it dealt with the asylum seekers who were in very dangerous waters," he said.
"But it does depend on there being a duty of care and two, it does depend on whether reasonable steps have been taken by the Navy to secure the safety of asylum seekers."

Mr Barnes says the asylum seekers' injuries should add weight to any claims for asylum.
"I think on moral grounds it should, it certainly should," he said.
"On moral grounds Australia has an obligation to these people and whatever happened on this ship it is a tragic set of circumstances.
"To return people in those circumstances where they are mentally and physically badly scarred to Afghanistan in particular, where there is not the same level of treatments and where their lives are at risk, would be inhumane in the extreme."

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I can only compare it to publican being responsible for patron’s intoxication and liable for damages drunk patron causes.

Well done Mr Barnes, Australia is country of milk and honey and must be milked to the max.

Happy said:

I can only compare it to publican being responsible for patron’s intoxication and liable for damages drunk patron causes.

Well done Mr Barnes, Australia is country of milk and honey and must be milked to the max.

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The Barnesy's of the world are only concerned about fuzzy rights......

their business is not to concern themselves with the fact that, for every active right, there is an active obligation imposed on others.

Whether that active obligation is just or not, is not Mr Barne's concern.

Which is why the law is an ass.....especially when carried out by obese elites who couldn't tell you what the median wage is.

helicart said:

The Barnesy's of the world are only concerned about fuzzy rights......

their business is not to concern themselves with the fact that, for every active right, there is an active obligation imposed on others.

Whether that active obligation is just or not, is not Mr Barne's concern.

Which is why the law is an ass.....especially when carried out by obese elites who couldn't tell you what the median wage is.

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Even without the human rights activists buying into it the Australian taxpayer is up for a huge bill to clean up the mess caused by these illegal immigrants, and after the wash up we will be left with a boatload of undesirables.

All that money could be better spent on migrants who are already here who have worked hard to assimilate and are now among the first to lose their jobs in the recession.

Anyone watching Four Corners last night would have been touched by the plight of women who have lost their jobs in Woollongong. The majority of the women losing their jobs at Bonds clothing factory, came from Macedonia years ago. These women could speak very little English and clothing factory work answered their needs. They were good workers, they settled in well and the factory was like an extended family to them.

No they are out of work and have little prospect of finding work. In fact there is no work in Woollongong anyway. Mealy mouthed politicians visit and make promises they never keep.

Rudd's policy should be no more migrants (legal or illegal) until we have work for those already here.

Calliope said:

Rudd's policy should be no more migrants (legal or illegal) until we have work for those already here.

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what bugs me is Rudd's strongest trait is as a lying furtive propagandist.....
and he won't stop at gagging the navy and border patrol.....he and dkhed advisor Lachlan Harris will snow the media on what is going on up north.....

We bend over backwards to make illegals happy, but there is no satisfying some people;

Emergency crews called to violent protest at detention centre
AAPApril 21, 2009 09:53am+-PrintEmailShare
THE Department of Immigration and Citizenship still does not know what triggered a violent protest by illegal Chinese immigrants at Maribyrnong Immigration Detention Centre in Melbourne's west.
About 20 detainees went on a destructive spree, wrecking furniture at the centre in Hampstead Road about 8pm (AEST) yesterday.

Emergency crews from the Metropolitan Fire Brigade were placed on standby outside the facility as detention services provider G4S brought the situation under control.

When asked what triggered the unrest, an immigration spokesman said: "Their reasons were their own.''

"There was some property damage but the detention services provider got it under control pretty quickly.''

The protesters were among 39 illegal immigrants detained in March at a Warrnambool abattoir.

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In the absence of any other complains we can only assume they were disappointed with the furniture. Which was probably made in China.

Why don't we kill 2 birds with one stone and start a french styled Australian foreign legion. Anyone who likes can join our army for 5 years and then move to Australia. This would allow us to:-

1. To withdraw Australians from Iraq and Ahfganistan by replacing them with this new army. This would also destroy the will of the Taliban as they could no longer claim Western casualties.
2. Increase our troop numbers to protect our borders
3. Ensure new immigrants have served Australia (5 years army service is definately worthy of citizenship)

Taltan said:

Why don't we kill 2 birds with one stone and start a french styled Australian foreign legion. Anyone who likes can join our army for 5 years and then move to Australia. This would allow us to:-

1. To withdraw Australians from Iraq and Ahfganistan by replacing them with this new army. This would also destroy the will of the Taliban as they could no longer claim Western casualties.
2. Increase our troop numbers to protect our borders
3. Ensure new immigrants have served Australia (5 years army service is definately worthy of citizenship)

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Taltan if you were to ask any of the Special Forces troops serving in Afghanistan you would be hard pressed to find one that wants to them to be withdrawn. Most of our troops have already been withdrawn from Iraq.

I think the US runs a similar program where if you sign up for the military you can fast track your citizenship. But I am pretty sure they have to have a green card to start with.

Yes the lawyers like Barnesy's would be happy to milk the system dry all the while lining their own pockets.

Hi helicart, don't have time to respond to your whole post but I will say you make far, far too many assumptions and generalisations about me. Oh, and IIRC I provided some factual sources on page 2 which is more than you've bothered to do. You skipped right over that and ranted about our Marxist education system instead . I wouldn't mind a source showing the link between asylum seekers and massive amounts of gold, wouldn't hurt your credibility.

Is it a book of fiction you're writing? Sorry couldn't resist But if it's half as entertaining as your posts I'll buy a copy.

It's Snake Pliskin - LOL, that's a terrible analogy, are you a /b/tard by any chance?

That Barnsey guy can get ****ed. How the hell are the Navy/govt. liable for what happened? Compensation my ****.

Underpants Gnome said:

Hi helicart, don't have time to respond to your whole post but I will say you make far, far too many assumptions and generalisations about me. Oh, and IIRC I provided some factual sources on page 2 which is more than you've bothered to do. You skipped right over that and ranted about our Marxist education system instead . I wouldn't mind a source showing the link between asylum seekers and massive amounts of gold, wouldn't hurt your credibility.

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UG, when you grow up into a daddy gnome, and come out from the dark, underneath the mushroom you live under, you will realize there are people who think they know better than you....politicians, judges, boards of directors, public servants, etc etc.......they make laws to withhold information from you because they don't think you are mature and intelligent enough to "handle the truth"...........

the information I have passed on comes from people who would be put in jail for revealing it to the public via the media. but you discover this when you come out from under your familiar mushroom, and meet other gnomes with beards and wrinkles....gnomes from the defence forces who have served time in Afghanistan or Vietnam, or had first hand experience in detention camps.

So unfortunately, I am going to have to let you live with your smug preconceptions.....because I can't give you a convenient literature reference or a url to sway your mind from its comfortable closed mindset nor your bottom from its cushioned comfort in a cosy armchair.

Though I might add that if you want to play with the adults, then you read up on the history of the Hazara and other tribes within Afghanistan, as I asked in my previous post to you.



As for my book, it is written for you and your friends......... the title is

"How To Leave Home Without Your Mother"

Do we have some sort of moral obligation towards asylum seekers from Iraq and Afghanistan, given our participation in the so called coalition of the willing which wreaked destruction on these countries?

Julia said:

Do we have some sort of moral obligation towards asylum seekers from Iraq and Afghanistan, given our participation in the so called coalition of the willing which wreaked destruction on these countries?

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I agree we shouldn't be there at all........like the US, we'll go insolvent if we try to sort out every country's problems.

Anyone with strong emotions about Afghanistan and illegal migrants should read up on the place. There's been conflict there for at least a thousand years. The Shiite Hazaras, orginally from Persia, get slapped around by the Sunnis any time scarcity of resources cycles upwards. There would be a lot less Hazara now if the West hadn't been involved.

The popn of Afghanistan is around 33 million....10% of those are Hazara....3.3 million....It is a bit naively gullible to believe 3.3. million Hazara can't look after the few hundred of their own who say they need asylum in Australia.

Finally, why do you call them asylum seekers? They have asylum once they enter Pakistan and Iran, where there are established and successful Hazara communities. The ones that spend the big bucks coming over here are trying to fast track into a developed welfare state. they have a long history of trying to scam their way into developed nations where the currency is strong and pay good compared to home. Once in, they set up remittance economies, where they send a great portion of their under taxed black market earnings back to Afghanistan.

Some Hazara also get involved in developed nations as drug distributors for Afghanistan's primary export, heroin.

Aussies are being snowed by liberal progressive soft headedness, in govt and in the media. To rely on the ABC, SBS, or commercial media, and even the education system, for your views on the world, is to become an uncritical mind controlled drone. Everyone will do themselves a favour by being conscious of that.

helicart said:

I agree we shouldn't be there at all........like the US, we'll go insolvent if we try to sort out every country's problems.

Anyone with strong emotions about Afghanistan and illegal migrants should read up on the place. There's been conflict there for at least a thousand years. The Shiite Hazaras, orginally from Persia, get slapped around by the Sunnis any time scarcity of resources cycles upwards. There would be a lot less Hazara now if the West hadn't been involved.

The popn of Afghanistan is around 33 million....10% of those are Hazara....3.3 million....It is a bit naively gullible to believe 3.3. million Hazara can't look after the few hundred of their own who say they need asylum in Australia.

Finally, why do you call them asylum seekers? They have asylum once they enter Pakistan and Iran, where there are established and successful Hazara communities. The ones that spend the big bucks coming over here are trying to fast track into a developed welfare state. they have a long history of trying to scam their way into developed nations where the currency is strong and pay good compared to home. Once in, they set up remittance economies, where they send a great portion of their under taxed black market earnings back to Afghanistan.

Some Hazara also get involved in developed nations as drug distributors for Afghanistan's primary export, heroin.

Aussies are being snowed by liberal progressive soft headedness, in govt and in the media. To rely on the ABC, SBS, or commercial media, and even the education system, for your views on the world, is to become an uncritical mind controlled drone. Everyone will do themselves a favour by being conscious of that.

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Another good post filled with facts.

The western guilt syndrome is prevalent among those who should know better.

Julia said:

Do we have some sort of moral obligation towards asylum seekers from Iraq and Afghanistan, given our participation in the so called coalition of the willing which wreaked destruction on these countries?

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Julia,

It's the internal bickering of religious zealots that has wreaked destruction in those countries for centuries.

Underpants Gnome said:

It's Snake Pliskin - LOL, that's a terrible analogy, are you a /b/tard by any chance?

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Should Barnsey be taking up the Lion's case?

Feel free to elaborate on that abusive cowardice word you chose to unspell.

Snake, with a name like that, are you ex defence forces or did you just enjoy the movie?

Reports indicate that the boat was diesel-powered (as most Asian boats are). As diesel fuel does not explode, and these people are said to have poured petrol around the boat, looks like some pre-planning went on .

New bunch arrested nr Barrow island of WA coast today


pity they didnt listen to that bloke that said blow em out the water the first time i say

Snake - not an insult, nor a misspelling, but you answered my question. Sorry if you took it the wrong way.

Heli - sorry, didn't get to respond to your point about the Hazara. I've done quite a bit of reading about their history earlier this year, prompted by a book I read (can't remember the name, it was fiction) so while I'm by no means an expert, I'm not completely ignorant.

It's Snake Pliskin said:

Julia,

It's the internal bickering of religious zealots that has wreaked destruction in those countries for centuries.

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Completely acknowledged, Snake. And I am not a supporter of allowing these people into Australia. But the bombing of both these countries has ruined infrastructure and fostered an increase amongst the warring factions plus suicide bombers etc. Before GWB with our kind assistance bombed the hell out of Iraq (not sure about Afghanistan) they had a reasonably civilised life there if you avoided Saddam and his ilk.

Helicart: why do I call them asylum seekers? What would you like me to call them? Illegal immigrants? OK, I'm fine with that. I probably just used the term asylum seekers because that is how they are most commonly referred to. I don't think it's all that important. If they feel they are religiously persecuted I'd imagine it's reasonably appropriate for them to 'seek asylum'.

I don't think we know yet the stated reasons for the currently hospitalised people's attempting to come here. Religious persecution by the Taliban was stated by the bunch which were intercepted in Indonesia.

Are you saying they are not persecuted in Afghanistan? (and please it would be good if you just answer the question without attempting to paint me as a left wing refugee advocate which I'm not.)

My previous post raised the point that the invasion by the West of both Iraq and Afghanistan has caused the deterioration of living conditions in both countries. Under Saddam, e.g. Iraquis had to tread carefully, but the country was largely functional, they had consistent electricity, water supply, education, etc and did not have to fear being blown up every time they left their homes.

The reasons offered by GWB - and supported by our own government at the time and apparently still supported with respect to Afghanistan - for invading both these countries is complete bull**** imo. In Iraq there were no weapons of mass destruction - though this was later swept under the carpet and replaced by the apparent messianic zeal to bring democracy to the Middle East.

If Middle East countries are not attracted to democracy, then I don't think it's any of our business. It was a completely spurious rationale for being over there.

I'm simply attempting to tread an objective path in this discussion. I don't want these people in Australia, but at the same time I can appreciate what hell their lives must be in their home countries, and at least part of this misery has been contributed by the US, Australia et al.