ASF spelling and grammar lessons

[2020hindsight]

1. This is a nice example of the common tendency of language police to emphasise the use of logic at the expense of both common sense and linguistic subtlety. Of COURSE things can be invented more than once. I myself invented risotto, not knowing that it had been invented by other people centuries before I was born.

2. Take another look at this so-called common phrase. If I were to slip into my grammatical nerd hat, I'd point out that it's a clause rather than a phrase (phrases don't have verbs), but that's the least of its problems.

3. What about the facts? Wouldn't you expect the name Alexander Graham Bell to be in the place of Thomas Edison? I did. So I googled "edison telephone", and found this:

4. "Bell was undoubtedly the first inventor of the art of transmitting speech over an electric circuit, but, with his particular form of telephone, the field was circumscribed."

5. The article is discussing Edison's role in the history of the telephone, and Bell is called the the "first inventor" because Edison invented a new, different, and ultimately superior, form of telephone. That's not redundancy. That's skilled use of the language. Ghoti (in fighting mood)

lol , well -
1. I invented risotto third then lol - just that some people call it other names. Like "swill" for instance (a la Spook in Wizard of Id). And I get nicknamed "Turnkey" whenever I cook lol.

2 to 5. moralless (moraless?) -
more or less no argument from me on the rest -
in fact I think I said so at the time....

They get pretty picky yes?
"Thomas Edison first invented the telephone"
should read "Thomas Edison invented the telephone" - sheesh serious pedantry IMO

I just wish NO-ONE invented the budy phone
I'd be a significantly richer man

It could stay one of those mysteries - until a generation or two when my grandkids were old enough to give my kids the bludy phone bills.

2. possible exception of para / clause / phrase 2 where you seem to have caught the bug as well lol.
have a good one 2020

PS FURTHERMORE , It should say
Thomas Edison invented the bludy lightbulb! lol

PS thought for the day ... when Edison first invented the lightbulb - I wonder what appeared above his head??
what about when he made his previous invention?

PS I used to say "it could remain one of those mysterious mysteries" btw - that was last week.

 

[Snagglepuss]

This sentence on another forum tickled my fancy:

"My Ni stock is MCR, purchased for the poultry sum of 66c"

- Snaggle.

 

[rederob]

This sentence on another forum tickled my fancy:

"My Ni stock is MCR, purchased for the poultry sum of 66c"

- Snaggle.

Snaggle
He wins the quinella - both homophonous and polysemous.
But only if we know he was referring to the amount as "chicken feed".
The homonymous purists have warned me not to award a trifecta.
Correct wait.... anyone?

 

[wayneL]

This sentence on another forum tickled my fancy:

"My Ni stock is MCR, purchased for the poultry sum of 66c"

- Snaggle.

I guess he bought it all in one fowl swoop as well.

(Usually written as "foul", but of course we pedants know it is "fell". )

 

[2020hindsight]

Wayne, just found some comments on google.. http://www.wordwizard.com/ch_forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=18009

"If a hawk gets a chicken in each claw, is that a two-fowl swoop?"

good opportunity to define a few more figures of speech

MALAPROPISM (If you don't know what you're doing when you say "fowl" or "foul" etc)...

Some folks just don’t know or misheard the original expression and we’ve got an example of a MALAPROPISM – “a ludicrous misuse of a word, especially by confusion with one of similar sound.”

PUN (If you do )

Others clearly know what the original expression is and we’ve got a PUN – "an intentional play on words." The pun actually worked well in some of the examples I saw where it was made clear that the action taken was, indeed, ‘foul.’ I guess if I were using the pun, I would probably put ‘foul’ in quotes or italics.

The original expression was AT ONE FELL SWOOP and the first use of the phrase in English appears to be in Macbeth where Shakespeare likens the murder of Macduff’s wife and children to a hawk swooping down on defenseless prey. Although ‘fell’ here meant ruthless, savage, fierce (also basis of the word ‘felon’), in the expression IN/AT ONE FELL SWOOP it now means sudden, and the entire idiom means all at once, in a single action, as in “The new law lifted all controls in one fell swoop.”

PS If someone accuses you of a malapropism - you look em in the eye and reply, "very punny"

 

[2020hindsight]

was it slip of the tongue or a witticism?
who's the joke on ? and was it funny?
was it typo? maybe a malapropism?
or some "pony brain" being punny?

sorry think that should be "puny brain" cant remember

 

[noirua]

I did see a thread, on another website, where posts were written using the next letter in the alphabet.

ASF is a wonderful forum. = BTG jt b xpoefsgvm gpsvn. and then backwards = GTB tj b mvgsfeopx .nvspg

At first I could not see the point in this thread. Maybe, you, like me, will work it out in the end - epph .ldvm

 

[2020hindsight]

was it slip of the tongue or a witticism?
who's the joke on ? and was it funny?
was it typo? maybe a malapropism?
or some "puny brain" being punny?

Is a meant-well wee drop :alcohol:
just a wee mental prop
(much like Mal must be propped when he's pissing)
Now is Mal a pisspot?
or is Mal a pissed prop?
or is Mal just a Mal-a-propped-prism? .

PS Do I look like I care, can I bearishly bear
should I tear out my hair till I'm hairless
Do I care , more or less?
less like more
more like less
yes I carelessly add I could care less.

 

[2020hindsight]

SEQUENCE OF WORDS...

Someone penned a quote once (forget where I found it) :-
"I'd prefer to be wisely worldly than to be worldly wise".

Presumably because the first option leaves the door open for pushing your luck

But it makes you realise how easily the meaning of a sentence changes just because a couple of words are juggled

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=170339&highlight=burns#post170339

 

[Snagglepuss]

Some pretty poor grammar here from the "Green Guide" insert in The Age newspaper (which should know better):

Up-market routers that combine wireless with a broadband modem - so there's one fewer box on your desk, one fewer AC adaptor plugged into your wall and one fewer bit of hardware to go wrong - are sometimes called hubs ...

"One fewer box"?!

- Snaggle.

 

[Judd]

Some pretty poor grammar here from the "Green Guide" insert in The Age newspaper (which should know better):



"One fewer box"?!

- Snaggle.

Oh well, maybe less is more?

 

[2020hindsight]

Some pretty poor grammar here from the "Green Guide" insert in The Age newspaper (which should know better):
"One fewer box"?! - Snaggle.

interesting one snaggle...
how about "one box fewer?"

Snaggle - you'd also have to take it up with the washington post
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/27/AR2006082700644.html What One Fewer Planet Means to Our Worldview

and freespace http://freespace.virgin.net/seant.ellis/onefewer.htm "...I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." -Stephen F. Roberts


meanwhile...
http://www.seattle.gov/waytogo/onelesscar.htm Take the One Less Car Challenge!

http://www.onelesstear.com/ One less tear

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m4422/is_n11_v8/ai_11582809

Make one fewer error - Wood on Words - Column
Communication World, Nov, 1991 by Alden S. Wood
For those of us who write for a living, problems like the following are as common as the common cold, and just as annoying. Please read this lead datelined oakland, Calif.:

"Mike Greenwell was clearly gearing for a major announcement ... [perhaps] ... why he has one fewer home run than Mike Gallego this season."

Well, what's wrong with fewer ... except that it sounds weird? Do not the AP and UPI stylebooks croon virtually identical lyrics on fewer/less, chanting "use fewer for individual items, less for bulk or quantity"? Are not home runs individual achievements, judiciously totted up by statisticians of sports reporting?

All true, fellas and gals, but your ear still warns you, "Keep digging, bozo." And eventually you will find a book like Theodore M. Bernstein's The Careful Writer (Atheneum, 9th printing in 1972), a book that always keeps the needy reader in mind, that always adds the esoteric exotica the desperate writer must have, to wit:

"There is one oddity about fewer: Whereas it is fine to write, 'The Liberals won three fewer seats than in the previous election,' (ONLY THREE - BULLDUST !!) you cannot say 'one fewer seats,' nor can you say 'one fewer seat.' The only escape hatch is 'one seat fewer.'"
Ditto "one home run fewer" in our citation

PS which is correct ?
'Not many of these buildings are fewer than thirty years old.'
'Not many of these buildings are less than thirty years old.'?

. I must note here that Ted went yet another step, adding, "The only other problem about fewer is to distinguish whether it is quantity or number that is being spoken of. For instance: 'Not many of these buildings are fewer than thirty years old.' The thought here is not of individual years but of a period of time; therefore, less."

 

[Snagglepuss]

Interesting quotations and links, 2020, thanks for those!

Cheers, Snaggle.

 

[2020hindsight]

continuing ...
cripes, by the time we investigate all these - .... this thread could still be going in the next millenium !!! lol
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Figure_of_speech

[edit] Tropes
Main article: Trope (linguistics)
allegory: An extended metaphor in which a story is told to illustrate an important attribute of the subject
allusion: An indirect reference to another work of literature or art
.........
hysteron proteron: Reversal of anticipated order of events
................
zoomorphism: applying animal characteristics to humans or gods

Is it ok to say ....
"putting on your shoes and socks?"

or should you say
"putting on your socks and shoes??"

damned if I know - but I have found a big word that discusses this (and other red herrings lol)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hysteron-proteron

Hysteron proteron

The hysteron proteron ("latter before") is a rhetorical device in which the first key word of the idea refers to something that happens temporally later than the second key word. The goal is to call attention to the more important idea by placing it first.

The standard example comes from the Aeneid of Virgil, Moriamur, et in media arma ruamus, or "let us die, and charge into the thick of the fight" (ii. 353).

An example of hysteron proteron encountered in everyday life is that of a person getting up and putting on their shoes and socks (rather than socks and shoes). Another common example is "lock and load" (whereas a bolt-action rifle must be loaded and then locked).

after reading the next bit, try to guess what they'd call the movie "Momento"??!!
A zig-zag-hysteron-proteron ?? (who nose)

On a larger scale, the structure of the Odyssey also takes advantage of hysteron proteron strategies. The epic begins by narrating Telemachus' difficulties dealing with his mother's suitors and his search for information about his years-missing father, events that, temporally, occur nearly at the end of the overall sequence. When the poem introduces Odysseus, it does so after he has spent seven years in captivity on Calypso's island and is finally leaving; he builds a raft but is shipwrecked. He relates to his hosts, the Phaeacians, the adventures that brought him to this point, bringing the story up to his stay on Calpyso's island. The Phaeacians help him finish his voyage, and he returns to Ithaca where he meets up with Telemachus and, together, the two deal with the suitors, who were the poem's first main concern.
In this way, the Odyssey's use of hysteron proteron shares elements with frame narratives, which remain a popular device today in movies and fiction.

Hysteron proteron, in addition to being a rhetorical device can be used generally to describe a situation that is the reverse of the natural or logical order. "Putting the cart before the horse" and "topsy-turvydom" are examples/synonyms of hysteron proteron.[1]

 

[wayneL]

Has anybody been watching "Adventures in English" on SBS? It chronicles the history and evolution of the English language since the arrival of Angles (the word from which the word "English" derives), Saxons and Jutes.

Basically, English is a Germanic language with Celtic grammar, and infusions from Old Norse, Latin and French.

Fascinating.

 

[2020hindsight]

Wayne - Adventures in English is bludy brilliant (IMO) !

continuing ...
cripes, by the time we investigate all these - .... this thread could still be going in the next millenium !!! lol
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Figure_of_speech

[edit] Tropes
Main article: Trope (linguistics)
allegory: An extended metaphor in which a story is told to illustrate an important attribute of the subject
......
commiseration: Evoking pity in the audience.
correctio: Linguistic device used for correcting one's mistakes, a form of which is epanorthosis.
denominatio: Another word for metonymy
double negative: grammar error that can be used as an expression and it is the repetition of negative words
epanorthosis: Immediate and emphatic self-correction, often following a slip of the tongue.
erotema: Synonym for rhetorical question
euphemism: Substitution of a less offensive or more agreeable term for another
hermeneia: Repetition for the purpose of interpreting what has already been said
hyperbole: Use of exaggerated terms for emphasis
hypophora: Answering one's own rhetorical question at length
hysteron proteron: Reversal of anticipated order of events
innuendo: Having a hidden meaning in a sentence that makes sense whether it is detected or not
invocation: An apostrophe to a god or muse
irony: Use of word in a way that conveys a meaning opposite to its usual meaning

.......
zoomorphism: applying animal characteristics to humans or gods

Here's one that Wikipedia didn't mention (in that list at least) ...
double entendres

Since it is the basis of almost all TV sitcoms, plus James Bond gags, plus Mae West, plus barroom jokes etcetc, might as wekk post a few examples ..

Sir Les Patterson :-
"The key to cardiovascular fitness is getting it up, and that applies to the heart rate as well!" - (lots of double entendres in anything he says lol)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_entendre

An unfortunate choice of phrase

Paul Boateng lowers the tone of BBC1's serious political discussion program 'Question Time' with an accidental - and curiously prophetic - double entendre.

They were discussing an exchange of hostile words between UK Deputy PM John Prescott and French environment minister Dominique Voynet. Prescott had blamed the breakdown of talks at an environmental summit on Voynet, to which she responded that Prescott was behaving in an "inveterate macho" and "really pathetic, shabby" manner."

innuendo is something similar I guess
also ambiguity

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_entendre . A double entendre is a figure of speech similar to the pun, in which a spoken phrase can be understood in either of two ways. This can be as simple as a phrase which has two mutually exclusive meanings, and is thus a clever play on words.

An example of this would be the title of the short story, "The Most Dangerous Game", by Richard Connell, in which the title can refer both to the "game" that is most dangerous to hunt, and "game" that is most dangerous to play.

But for many, perhaps even most, persons, a risque, even sexual, element is central to their understanding of double entendre. The Oxford English Dictionary defines it as 'A double meaning; a word or phrase having a double sense, especially as used to convey an indelicate meaning' . In these cases, the first meaning is presumed to be the more innocent one, while the second meaning is risque, or at least ironic, requiring the hearer to have some additional knowledge.

Structure
When innuendo is used in a sentence, it could go completely undetected by someone who was not familiar with the hidden meaning, and he or she would find nothing odd about the sentence (aside from other people finding it humorous for seemingly no reason). Perhaps, because an innuendo is not considered offensive to those who do not "get" the hidden implication, it is often prevalent in sitcoms and other comedy which would in fact be considered suitable for children. Children would find this comedy funny, but because most children lack understanding of the hidden implication in innuendo, they would find it funny for a completely different reason than most adult viewers.

ambiguity = "Let him have it" "I'll let you go now" etc - they would not normally be classed as double entendre. (Not sure Why Not!!?)

...Historical usage

The poem Ozymandias by Percy Shelley published in 1818 is an example of ironic double entendre. Looking upon the shattered ruins of a colossus, the traveller reads:

My name is Ozymandias, king of kings:
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!

King Ozymandias' intended meaning of "despair" was that nobody could hope to equal his achievements, but time and neglect have rendered another meaning – that the mighty are mortal and will inevitably share his fate of oblivion in the sands of time.

......Bawdy double entendres were the trademark of Mae West, in her early-career vaudeville performances as well as in her later movies.


[edit] Modern usage
Double entendres have now become more popular in modern movies and television works, as a way to conceal adult humor in a work aimed at general audiences. The James Bond films are rife with such humour. For example, in Tomorrow Never Dies (1997), when Bond is disturbed by the telephone while in bed with a Danish girl, he explains that he's busy brushing up on his Danish, to which Moneypenny replies, "You always were a cunning linguist, James." (The joke, of course, is that cunning linguist sounds like cunnilingus.)

Another example would be "I broke a g-string while fingering a minor" which is a double entendre understood only by guitarists or musicians who would understand that the g-string is a guitar string and a minor is a chord.

.....
One popular joke that simultaneously contains and defines a double entendre typically is told as: "A girl walks into a bar and orders a double entendre... so the bartender gives it to her."

British comedy
Sexual innuendo is common in British sitcoms and radio comedy such as I'm Sorry I Haven't a Clue. For example, in Are You Being Served?, Mrs. Slocombe makes frequent references to her "pussy", such as "It's a wonder I'm here at all, you know. My pussy got soakin' wet. I had to dry it out in front of the fire before I left." Someone unfamiliar with sexual slang might find this statement funny simply because of the references to her pussy cat, whereas generally a viewer would be expected to detect the innuendo ("pussy" is sexual slang for vagina).

....—there are riddles in Old English with different possible interpretations. Shakespeare used innuendos in his plays. Indeed, Sir Toby in Twelfth Night is seen saying, in reference to Sir Andrew's hair, that "it hangs like flax on a distaff; and I [Sir Toby] hope to see a housewife take thee [Sir Andrew] between her legs and spin it off;"

Attitudes to this kind of humour have changed enormously since the 19th century. In the Victorian theatre, innuendo was considered unpleasant, particularly for the ladies in the audience, and was not allowed. In the music hall, on the other hand, innuendo was in constant use in songs. Music Hall in this context is to be contrasted with Variety, the one common, low-class and vulgar; the other demi-monde, worldly and sometimes chic.

In the 20th century, there began to be a bit of a crackdown on lewdness, including some prosecutions. It was the job of the Lord Chamberlain to examine the scripts of all plays for indecency.

Nevertheless, some comedians still continued to get away with it. Max Miller, famously, had two books of jokes, a white book and a blue book, and would ask his audience which book they wanted to hear stories from. If they chose the blue book, it was their own choice and he could feel reasonably secure he was not offending anyone.

The blue, innuendo type of humour did not transfer to radio or cinema at that time, but eventually and progressively it began to filter through from the late 1950s and 1960s. Particularly significant in this respect were the Carry On films and the BBC radio series Round the Horne, ..... Spike Milligan, writer of The Goon Show, has remarked that a lot of blue innuendo came from servicemen's jokes, which were understood by most of the cast (who had all served as enlisted soldiers) and many of the audience, but which would pass over the heads of most of the BBC producers and directors, who were mostly "Officer class."

In 1968, the office of the Lord Chamberlain ceased to have responsibility for censoring live entertainment. By the 1970s innuendo had become widely pervasive across much of the British media.

 

[2020hindsight]

hell - without double entendre , it would be one boring world - especially for cartoonists

 

[2020hindsight]

bloopers or just "funny"
but a good "double entendre" - can be hilarious

Big Breakfast Donna Air Says Something She Shouldn't

 

[2020hindsight]

figures of speech .. continued..

what's it called when we say "the White House said...", or
"the pen is mightier than the sword" (??)

(google is mightier than the pen ?)

google reckons it's Metonymy.. (oops lol)

http://www.indopedia.org/Denominatio.html

Metonymy

( pl:metonimia) In rhetoric and cognitive linguistics, metonymy is the use of a single characteristic to identify a more complex entity. It is also known as denominatio or pars pro toto (part for the whole).

In rhetoric, metonymy is the substitution of one word for another with which it is associated. Metonymy works by contiguity rather than similarity. Typically, when someone uses metonymy, they don't wish to transfer qualities (as you do with metaphor); rather they transfer associations which may not be integral to the meaning.

The common figure "The White House said..." is a good example of metonymy, with the term "White House" actually referring to the authorities who are symbolized by the White House, which is an inanimate object that says nothing. The Crown for a kingdom is another example of this kind of metonymy. Metonymy can also refer to the rhetorical strategy of describing something indirectly by referring to things around it: describing someone's house in order to describe them, for example. Advertising frequently uses this kind of metonymy, simply putting a product in close proximity to something we want (beauty, happiness). See also figure of speech, synecdoche, metalepsis.

In cognitive linguistics, metonymy is one of the basic characteristics of cognition. It is extremely common for people to take one well-understood or easy-to-perceive aspect of something and use that aspect to stand either for the thing as a whole or for some other aspect or part of it. For example,

The pen is mightier than the sword.
"Pen" denotes publishing and "sword" denotes military force.

In linguistics, as in rhetoric, the distinction between metaphor and metonymy is important. For example, the phrase "to fish pearls" uses metonymy, drawing from "fishing" the notion of taking things from the ocean. What remains similar is the domain of usage and the associations, but we understand the phrase in spite of rather than because of the literal meaning of fishing: we know you do not use a fishing rod or net to get pearls.

In contrast, the metaphorical phrase "fishing for information", transfers the concept of fishing (waiting, hoping to catch something) into a new domain. (example drawn from Dirven, 1996)

 

[2020hindsight]

Metonymy?

"Pilbara told Beijing that they were today, and to ignore Canberra because they were yesterday." (? - Metonymy x 4? I think lol)