Animal rights and ethical food production

[Value Collector]

Expected this from So_Cynical perhaps but not you Ann, but cynically funny !
I guess if the animal is treated well in life and put to rest without torture it's all good. I'm thinking a way to put it down in a fraction of a second with a blade like laser beam (to be invented in the future). Even better if we could copy the green alien laser beam used by 'The Predator' (see movie with Arnie) which cauterises the wound as it cuts through flesh, so there is no blood spill.

I am thinking that the better option is just to get the meat without the need for the animal in the first place, rather than thinking of ways to slaughter it.

Whether that be plant based meat alternatives, or simply growing the chicken breast without having to grow the whole living breathing animal.

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In my mind, even if the slaughter was painless and the animal never knew it happened, it’s still wrong to do it when you don’t have to.

I mean If a serial killer was drugging his victims drinks, putting them to sleep before cutting their throats and eating their bodies, we would still think that was wrong.

When he stood up in court and defended his actions by saying “my victims had good lives up until I drugged them and cut their throats, they never felt anything”, we wouldn’t look at that as being honorable.

Nor would we say things like, it’s his personal choice what he eats at the end of the day.

Or, it’s your choice to avoid eating humans and I support your right to be a non human eater, but you really have to shut up and just let the cannibals eat human flesh if they want, it’s their choice.

 

[aus_trader]

I am thinking that the better option is just to get the meat without the need for the animal in the first place, rather than thinking of ways to slaughter it.

Whether that be plant based meat alternatives, or simply growing the chicken breast without having to grow the whole living breathing animal.

————

In my mind, even if the slaughter was painless and the animal never knew it happened, it’s still wrong to do it when you don’t have to.

I mean If a serial killer was drugging his victims drinks, putting them to sleep before cutting their throats and eating their bodies, we would still think that was wrong.

When he stood up in court and defended his actions by saying “my victims had good lives up until I drugged them and cut their throats, they never felt anything”, we wouldn’t look at that as being honorable.

Nor would we say things like, it’s his personal choice what he eats at the end of the day.

Or, it’s your choice to avoid eating humans and I support your right to be a non human eater, but you really have to shut up and just let the cannibals eat human flesh if they want, it’s their choice.

I was just thinking of a better/quicker way in the meantime since I can't see all the animal farming businesses going out of business anytime soon...

 

[galumay]

I mean If a serial killer was drugging his victims drinks, putting them to sleep before cutting their throats and eating their bodies, we would still think that was wrong.

In the past some societies cannabilism was practised, it wasnt wrong in their culture.

In nearly all societies today eating animal meat is not even considered in the context of right or wrong, its just what omnivores like homo sapiens do.

I think where the issue gets emotional is when people try to push their personal dietary choices onto others with some sort of imagined moral imperative. I dont care if you are a vegan, or a vegatarian, on a keto diet, gluten free, more power to you and your choices - but start trying to tell me what I can or cant eat, or that i am 'wrong' for choosing a particular dietary habit then you are going to get a very pointed "F*$% Off, and mind your own business."

 

[Value Collector]

In the past some societies cannabilism was practised, it wasnt wrong in their culture.

In nearly all societies today eating animal meat is not even considered in the context of right or wrong, its just what omnivores like homo sapiens do.

I think where the issue gets emotional is when people try to push their personal dietary choices onto others with some sort of imagined moral imperative. I dont care if you are a vegan, or a vegatarian, on a keto diet, gluten free, more power to you and your choices - but start trying to tell me what I can or cant eat, or that i am 'wrong' for choosing a particular dietary habit then you are going to get a very pointed "F*$% Off, and mind your own business."

If they killed and ate some one against there will, that would be wrong regardless of the culture.

You are mistake what is lawful, with what is moral, they are to different things.

You are also mistaking what is a personal choice vs a moral choice.

Eg smoking is a personal choice, because the only person you harm is you, so it’s your choice, I don’t give a crap if people smoke.

However, if your habit is generating innocent victims, it no longer is a personal choice, it becomes a moral choice.

There is lots of legal ways to act immorally, this does not make it ok though.

 

[galumay]

If they killed and ate some one against there will, that would be wrong regardless of the culture.

No, its about context and perspective - it would be wrong by our standards/morals. It was morally fine, right, and legal in those cultures that practised it.

I think you are mistakenly viewing morality as some sort of absolute.

Generally the majority of a society has certain moral values that are widely and deeply shared - but morality is also dynamic in society, many practices that were considered immoral a generation or two ago are now accepted, hence there are always practices that are in a state of flux, where some people consider them moral, and others maintain them to be immoral. Morality also varies with things like religious belief, political beliefs and cultural background.

Your distinction between moral and personal choice doesnt really make sense to me either, our personal morality (belief in what is wrong or right), informs our personal choices. I think a moral choice is just a personal choice that aligns with your personal morality, not a different thing based on effect as you seem to imply.

ps I think its time to stop the philosophical discussion, we have dragged the thread even further off topic and ending up discussing cannabilism in a thread about a chook farming business has probably set some sort of undesirable record! So I shall sign off and let the chook farmers have their say.

 

[Value Collector]

No, its about context and perspective - it would be wrong by our standards/morals. It was morally fine, right, and legal in those cultures that practised it.

I think you are mistakenly viewing morality as some sort of absolute.

Generally the majority of a society has certain moral values that are widely and deeply shared - but morality is also dynamic in society, many practices that were considered immoral a generation or two ago are now accepted, hence there are always practices that are in a state of flux, where some people consider them moral, and others maintain them to be immoral. Morality also varies with things like religious belief, political beliefs and cultural background.

Your distinction between moral and personal choice doesnt really make sense to me either, our personal morality (belief in what is wrong or right), informs our personal choices. I think a moral choice is just a personal choice that aligns with your personal morality, not a different thing based on effect as you seem to imply.

ps I think its time to stop the philosophical discussion, we have dragged the thread even further off topic and ending up discussing cannabilism in a thread about a chook farming business has probably set some sort of undesirable record! So I shall sign off and let the chook farmers have their say.

As I said something being moral is different to it being legal.

If you are innocent and don’t want to die, it is wrong for someone to kill you, regardless of their personal beliefs or the beliefs of their peers.

I do t believe in morality is subjective or absolute, but it is objective.

 

[wayneL]

If only we could convince all the other carnivorous animals to become vegan, we could all live in peace...

 

[aus_trader]

If only we could convince all the other carnivorous animals to become vegan, we could all live in peace...

Yeah, that'll stop one of the neighbouring cats from eating the native birds and leaving a whole circle of shredded feathers in my garden every other week

 

[noirua]

#BREAKINGNEWS – HUGE NEWS! Today is #WorldDayForLaboratoryAnimals and Beagle Freedom Project is thrilled to announce that we have rescued 29 beagles used in animal testing in South Korea!

We are conducting this rescue in partnership with our friends at Beagle Rescue Network in South Korea. Beagle Freedom Project made a commitment to save them by sponsoring their rescue so that they could be released, otherwise the rescue could not have happened.

 

[mullokintyre]

It seems that all those vegans, vegetarians, and other plant lovers are just not putting their money where we thought they might.
From Zero hedge

The fake meat industry appears to be in a death-spiral as sales at plant-based 'meat' companies Impossible Foods and Beyond Meat have imploded.

As Axios reports, "after years of hype, the tide is turning against the first generation of plant-based protein makers."


Last year, both companies were riding high - with prime placement on supermarket shelves, and Burger King even adding an Impossible Whopper to its menu.

Impossible Meat even began to branch out - looking to expand offerings to highly processed meats such as chicken nuggets and sausages.

Sales have collapsed, however, which according to a recent Bloomberg report, has resulted in Impossible Foods planning to lay off around 20% of its workers.

Impossible Foods Inc., the maker of meatless burgers and sausages, is preparing to cut about 20% of its staff, according to a person familiar with the matter.
The Redwood City, California-based company currently employs about 700 workers. The new round of dismissals could reduce that amount by more than 100.
Impossible Foods also offered voluntary separation payments and benefits to employees at the end of 2022, said the person, who asked not to be named discussing private information. An internal document viewed by Bloomberg confirmed the separation packages being offered. The company previously reduced headcount in October, cutting about 6% of its workforce at the time. -Bloomberg
Beyond Meat's sales fell over 22% in the third quarter of 2022, as the company is preparing to similarly cut 20% of its workers. The company has also lost several executives.

According to the report, supermarket sales fell by 15% y/y as of Jan. 1, according to market-research firm IRI, while orders in restaurants dropped 9% in the12 months ended in November, according to NPD Group.

Meanwhile, data from consumer-experience strategy firm HundredX suggests waning interest in general - as the percentage of shoppers polled who have eaten Impossible products and say they won't do it again has risen.

Beyond Meat stock is also down around 67% vs. one year ago.

There will always be those who prefer vegetarianism or veganism, but it seems they will be hard pressed to get the rest of society to join them.
Mick

 

[Value Collector]

It seems that all those vegans, vegetarians, and other plant lovers are just not putting their money where we thought they might.
From Zero hedge

There will always be those who prefer vegetarianism or veganism, but it seems they will be hard pressed to get the rest of society to join them.
Mick

I don’t think so, I am in the USA st the moment and there is more plant based options than ever before in the freezer sections of the grocery stores, and in restaurants.

A couple of years ago the only options were beyond meat or impossible burger, but now there are so many different options competeing with them.

Also, vegans eat a lot more than just fake meat, and generally eat less and less fake meat the longer they are vegan.

So I wouldn’t look at the growth in two plant based meat companies slowing as being a sign that the plant based movement in general is failing.

 

[mullokintyre]

I don’t think so, I am in the USA st the moment and there is more plant based options than ever before in the freezer sections of the grocery stores, and in restaurants.

A couple of years ago the only options were beyond meat or impossible burger, but now there are so many different options competeing with them.

Also, vegans eat a lot more than just fake meat, and generally eat less and less fake meat the longer they are vegan.

So I wouldn’t look at the growth in two plant based meat companies slowing as being a sign that the plant based movement in general is failing.

And how do know the other plant based suppliers won't follow suit?
Two companies having big layoffs cos sales are down, restaurants finding that customers will not repeat the fake meat experiment is not an indication that things are heading in the wrong direction?
Mick

 

[wayneL]

And how do know the other plant based suppliers won't follow suit?
Two companies having big layoffs cos sales are down, restaurants finding that customers will not repeat the fake meat experiment is not an indication that things are heading in the wrong direction?
Mick

Have you seen the price of that crap (not to mention the ingredient list). The plebeians just can't afford top top dollar for what is basically processed rubbish.

 

[Value Collector]

And how do know the other plant based suppliers won't follow suit?
Two companies having big layoffs cos sales are down, restaurants finding that customers will not repeat the fake meat experiment is not an indication that things are heading in the wrong direction?
Mick

The rate that new products are coming on to the market is definitely not a sign that the market itself is shrinking, the category is growing as far as I can see.

But beyond and impossible are at the higher end of the price bracket, and some of the cheaper ones are better in my opinion, for example my wife and I prefer the coles brand “herb and sons” nuggets over the impossible nuggets and they are half the price.

————————
But the “fake meats” are just a small sub set of plant based foods, vegans and vegetarians don’t just substitute meat dishes they used to eat with fake meat dishes.

I used to eat meat at least twice a day, now that I am vegan I eat meat substitutes maybe once a fortnight, but I do eat dairy substitutes more regularly.

 

[Value Collector]

Have you seen the price of that crap (not to mention the ingredient list). The plebeians just can't afford top top dollar for what is basically processed rubbish.

I don’t really eat meat substitutes at home, but when travelling I often do, and the price is about the same.

Eg. I was at an Italian restaurant last night, and the vegan option that contained fake meat (a vegan chorizo) was the same price as the other pastas on the menu.

Vegan burgers are normally much different in price.

 

[wayneL]

Fwiw

 

[StockyGuy]

Fwiw

I admire your commitment to destroying the vegan scourge. I say this as a vegan lol. FWIW also it's ever so slightly annoying sometimes seeing that vegan friendly pronouncement on certain junk food. I do like the restriction a vegan diet usually enforces - sweets eg usually have milk, egg, or gelatin etc.

Processed doesn't necessarily mean junk, though.

 

[Value Collector]

I admire your commitment to destroying the vegan scourge. I say this as a vegan lol. FWIW also it's ever so slightly annoying sometimes seeing that vegan friendly pronouncement on certain junk food. I do like the restriction a vegan diet usually enforces - sweets eg usually have milk, egg, or gelatin etc.

Processed doesn't necessarily mean junk, though.

I consumed junk food before I was Vegan and I consume Junk food as a vegan. I didn’t go vegan for health reasons (although over all my diet is healthier now) I went vegan to reduce animal cruelty.

 

[StockyGuy]

I consumed junk food before I was Vegan and I consume Junk food as a vegan. I didn’t go vegan for health reasons (although over all my diet is healthier now) I went vegan to reduce animal cruelty.

Yeah, veganism makes strange bedfellows, so to speak. The animal welfare thing is more a very happy side effect for me.

 

[SirRumpole]

Will a vegan diet save the planet ?

From the Leftist ABC.

Will a vegan diet save the planet?

The environmental and health impacts of our diets show that it's worth considering veganism – or at least flexitarianism.

www.abc.net.au