Anglo Boomers Destroyed the World

[prawn_86]

If you can't do that - then perhaps market bubbles shouldn't be laid at the feet of just one generation.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

I agree totally with this. Perhaps it is the way the human mind works as it ages and causes these cycles

What worries me Prawn is not what BB's have done in the past, or how easy they have had it compared to any other generation or anything like that. What worries me is that currently 5 people are employed for every 1 retired. Give it 20 -30 years and that number will drop to 2.7 people employed for every 1 retired.

Scary eh? But what are we going to do? Line them up against a wall when the revolution comes?

Sounds like a plan to me

Seriously though, this is part of my thoughts/ramblings. The boomers were supposed to change the world for the better, yet they have spent a lot of money on themselves and a big majority will not be self funded in retirement, meaning that the younger generations have to support them. The strange thing is that now they are in power they still have very little vision/foresight to make things as easy as possible for the next generations... Again i guess this is just a human trait

 

[Julia]

So, just curious Prawn. What caused the other bubbles to pop? You've used a nice little subset of data to try and support your argument but lets take a somewhat wider view. What causes all those bubbles in the market prior to the BB's coming in and stuffing everything up? /sarcasm.

What about 1974?
How about 1929?
How about 1891?

In fact just go back for me and tell us about each of the events that occurred on average about 8 years apart since 1875 and relate them to the baby boomers for me will you? If you can't do that - then perhaps market bubbles shouldn't be laid at the feet of just one generation.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Thank heaven for a balanced comment.

What worries me Prawn is not what BB's have done in the past, or how easy they have had it compared to any other generation or anything like that.

Certainly bb's have had definite advantages. But haven't they simply made the most of the opportunities offered? The significant asset increases in the 70's and 80's were there for the taking. It was a great time to buy property. Are Gen Y suggesting that the bb's should have just stood aside and not taken advantage of these opportunities to create wealth?

There is another thread today on Luck and most contributors are correctly suggesting 'luck' involves largely being aware of opportunities and acting on them.

So it does seem that rather than logic driving some of the derogatory comments about bb's, it's envy. I doubt that human nature essentially changes much from generation to generation.

What worries me is that currently 5 people are employed for every 1 retired. Give it 20 -30 years and that number will drop to 2.7 people employed for every 1 retired.

Yep, and I'd agree that many of the bb's have put personal spending ahead of providing for their own retirement.

Scary eh? But what are we going to do? Line them up against a wall when the revolution comes?

Well, that's perhaps a little bloody and extreme, but what Gen Y could actively promote in their own interests is a changing of the law on voluntary euthanasia.
Very, very few people want to be old and useless, neither do they want to feel like a burden on younger people imo, so we need to deal with the whole nonsense of keeping old people alive in nursing homes.

Seriously though, this is part of my thoughts/ramblings. The boomers were supposed to change the world for the better,

Were they/we? I was never aware of this. Who charged the b b's with this responsibility?
And, although you omitted consideration of technological/medical etc advances in your OP, I don't think you can ignore the huge progress here. Nioka has mentioned his own experience here with health.
This is a double-edged sword, however, as we are mistakenly (imo) keeping people alive too long.

yet they have spent a lot of money on themselves and a big majority will not be self funded in retirement, meaning that the younger generations have to support them.

Very fair point, but maybe also consider that they will be working longer. Perhaps the great burden you so worry about will turn out to be less than currently considered as the shortage of workers forces employers to retain/employ older people.

Another aspect you might consider is that lots of older people would like to be working. They don't want to be unemployed and short of money. But until they absolutely have to use older people, employers are going to resist hiring anyone over 40.

The strange thing is that now they are in power they still have very little vision/foresight to make things as easy as possible for the next generations... Again i guess this is just a human trait

Prawn, this post from you is a lot more reasoned and less inflammatory than was your OP and that's appreciated.
I agree with you absolutely about the lack of vision of our woeful leaders everywhere.

It just seems a bit unreasonable to blame a whole generation of individuals, many of whom have had to overcome quite a lot of difficulty, and who have worked extremely hard to be in a position at retirement where they have achieved their goal of not being a burden to the succeeding generations.

 

[medicowallet]

. Give it 20 -30 years and that number will drop to 2.7 people employed for every 1 retired.

Scary eh? But what are we going to do? Line them up against a wall when the revolution comes?

Cheers
Sir O

Do the right thing and aggressively increase the retirement age.

But then again, how could you do that when BB control the vote?

 

[Sir Osisofliver]

I agree totally with this. Perhaps it is the way the human mind works as it ages and causes these cycles



Sounds like a plan to me

Seriously though, this is part of my thoughts/ramblings. The boomers were supposed to change the world for the better, yet they have spent a lot of money on themselves and a big majority will not be self funded in retirement, meaning that the younger generations have to support them. The strange thing is that now they are in power they still have very little vision/foresight to make things as easy as possible for the next generations... Again i guess this is just a human trait

Look Prawn, if you could get in a time machine and go visit your grandfather when he was your age and asked him what he wanted out of life, he probably wants the same sorts of things that you do...

Meet someone nice
Maybe raise a family (ok we know he did this one )
Freedom to live in a certain way

I know that when I was younger I was more idealistic and that as I got older I realized that there are very few opportunities to make lasting change - especially on something as grand as a national level or inside people's heads. We cannot control what others do, and who are we to even try? That way lies the thought police where some animals are more equal than others. The only control is self-control - and how we react to what others have done.

I'm not sure if you read Julia's thread about what formed your view on Money. In it I revealed that my Grandfather was a very wealthy man. My Mother was born into privledge and my Father, due to his alcohol and gambling addictions, blew my mothers inheritance in the space of ten years. Now I could either be stuck bitching and moaning at the lost opportunity (and one of my siblings has been stuck with this mindset for decades) or have the self control to do something to improve my situation.

Do not fear the coming times young padawan. Fear is the path to the dark side: fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering.

Patience, discipline, humility, peace with one's self and self-sacrifice are fantastic virtues for a Jedi knight in order to bring about a greater good. But not all of us are destined to be knights...some just don't feel the force...and we can't make them.

Cheers

Sir O

 

[prawn_86]

As usual Sir O your post is correct.

My old man was the same, idealistic when young, but happy with his lot now. As i mentioned earlier, perhaps this is just human nature and once we get comfortable we get complacent and content to not change things for the better. I just find it a bit weird that the hippies of years ago who preached free love etc are now the ones perpetuating a lot of the same problems they rallied against

I'm not scared or angry, i'm in a great position personally, its just annoying knowing things could be better (same as being a shareholder and wanting each company to improve i guess).

 

[Julia]

As usual Sir O your post is correct.

Indeed it is.

I just find it a bit weird that the hippies of years ago who preached free love etc are now the ones perpetuating a lot of the same problems they rallied against

Is this what you're referring to when you say that baby boomers were supposed to change the world?
If so, I'm not quite sure how sexual freedom and liberal drug use (which is what the hippie movement was all about) is especially going to make the world a better place for succeeding generations?

Could you maybe address this point. I'm interested.

 

[burglar]

Indeed it is.


Is this what you're referring to when you say that baby boomers were supposed to change the world?
If so, I'm not quite sure how sexual freedom and liberal drug use (which is what the hippie movement was all about) is especially going to make the world a better place for succeeding generations?

Could you maybe address this point. I'm interested.

Hippies were about running away

Running from the A-bomb
Running from the rat-race
Running from authority
Etc.

 

[prawn_86]

Is this what you're referring to when you say that baby boomers were supposed to change the world?
If so, I'm not quite sure how sexual freedom and liberal drug use (which is what the hippie movement was all about) is especially going to make the world a better place for succeeding generations?

Could you maybe address this point. I'm interested.

Well there was news out last week that the 'war on drugs' cost Aus $15b pa. Surely that money could be put to better use if some drug laws were relaxed. (This is a topic we have been over already)

As far as i understand the hippies were also about less corporate ownership, more and free education/healthcare etc. Yet now we see privatisations and increased government revenue raising through taxes and levies and declining healthcare and utilities

 

[Sir Osisofliver]

As usual Sir O your post is correct.

My old man was the same, idealistic when young, but happy with his lot now. As i mentioned earlier, perhaps this is just human nature and once we get comfortable we get complacent and content to not change things for the better. I just find it a bit weird that the hippies of years ago who preached free love etc are now the ones perpetuating a lot of the same problems they rallied against

I'm not scared or angry, i'm in a great position personally, its just annoying knowing things could be better (same as being a shareholder and wanting each company to improve i guess).

*Sir O hands Prawn the peace pipe*

But you seem worried and uncertain Prawn. Whilst I appreciate that your concern is more about others than yourself...an admirable quality...You must first help yourself to be in a position to help others. This is bit that most forget that you refer to. They help themselves...and then they get comfortable and content and they don't pass on the benefits of their wisdom and experiences....

And in a lot of circumstances it's because the benefits of their wisdom and experiences are not wanted. It's not a one-way street between the older generation giving the younger generation the benefits of their wisdom and it be gladly and wholeheartedly supported by the younger generation. There is resistance...teenagers know everything, like nothing the older generations say can like have any meaning in like the current day and age... like things have changed so much....like the world is like sooo different...like, you know, whatever.

And then the older generation get affronted that their lessons aren't being learned, that all these young uppity layabouts never had it so good and are bitching and moaning but won't do what we tell them to do.

"The young people of today think of nothing but themselves. They have
no reverence for parents or old age. They are impatient of all
restraint. They talk as if they alone knew everything and what passes
for wisdom with us is foolishness with them. As for girls, they are
forward, immodest and unwomanly in speech, behaviour and dress."

"The children now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for
authority, they show disrespect to their elders.... They no longer
rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents,
chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their
legs, and are tyrants over their teachers."

Source...Socrates..400 BC

the more things change.........


Cheers

Sir O

 

[sinner]

"The young people of today think of nothing but themselves. They have
no reverence for parents or old age. They are impatient of all
restraint. They talk as if they alone knew everything and what passes
for wisdom with us is foolishness with them. As for girls, they are
forward, immodest and unwomanly in speech, behaviour and dress."

"The children now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for
authority, they show disrespect to their elders.... They no longer
rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents,
chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their
legs, and are tyrants over their teachers."

Source...Socrates..400 BC

the more things change.........


Cheers

Sir O

Damn I hate that quote. Why do old people love to bring it up?

Guess what, Socrates did not say that!

 

[Sir Osisofliver]

Damn I hate that quote. Why do old people love to bring it up?

I don't know, why do you think old people love to bring it up?

Guess what, Socrates did not say that!

*Sir O looks at Prawn; nods towards Sinner, looks above at the quote that teenagers know everything; gives Prawn the eye again; looks at the qualities of good Jedi Knight; shakes his head sadly at Sinner, and then watches to see if Sinner exhibits good self-control*

Sinner, Socrates didn't write himself, so his observations are generally second or third hand and tend to be attributed to other people...like his student Plato who made the comments that Socrates said that in his Republic Book 4.


If that quote is not to your liking...how about this one...

"I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on
frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond
words... When I was young, we were taught to be discreet and
respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly wise
[disrespectful] and impatient of restraint" (Hesiod, 8th century BC).

Point is old farts trying to pass on their wisdom and being ignored by younger generations isn't exactly new.

Cheers

Sir O

 

[Smurf1976]

Looking at any economic or other measure of overall progress, I'd say that the inflection point was circa 1970 for the Western world. Boomers couldn't really be blamed for that, 20 year olds generally don't run the world, although the point could certainly be made that they have failed to reverse the decline.

 

[Julia]

Well there was news out last week that the 'war on drugs' cost Aus $15b pa. Surely that money could be put to better use if some drug laws were relaxed. (This is a topic we have been over already)

Yes we have. Is a legitimising of drug use really what you think makes the world successful or otherwise??

As far as i understand the hippies were also about less corporate ownership, more and free education/healthcare etc. Yet now we see privatisations and increased government revenue raising through taxes and levies and declining healthcare and utilities

Why would the hippies be on about free education and healthcare, since they and those somewhat before them had enjoyed both of these?
I was around in that era and don't recall a single issue about corporate ownership.
There was much more public ownership of utilities and infrastructure then. That is not necessarily always for the good and some of the privatisation has led to considerable progress.

I'm not sure where you are getting your information from in terms of what the hippie generation were all about. There was much about ban the bomb etc, and of course anti the Vietnam War which at least demonstrated some level of social responsibility, but it was way more about stuff like Woodstock,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodstock_Festival
and having idols like Janis Joplin and Jimi Hendrix. Think the beat generation with writers like William S. Burroughs ("Junkie"), Alan Ginsberg and Jack Kerouac, who espoused liberal drug use and an end to all sexual repression. Also Timothy Leary, who introduced that generation to LSD, and considered it the key to an evolving society. Probably not so different from what you yourself are promoting.

Sir O again makes the point that pretty much everything remains the same, however the current young generation likes to view it.
This might be something that can only be seen with maturity.

Looking at any economic or other measure of overall progress, I'd say that the inflection point was circa 1970 for the Western world. Boomers couldn't really be blamed for that, 20 year olds generally don't run the world, although the point could certainly be made that they have failed to reverse the decline.

On this point, prawn, given that you are so disillusioned with the achievements or lack of same on the part of your forebears, what are your own plans to ensure that the generations which succeed you will not feel as you do now when you yourself are approaching retirement?

 

[sptrawler]

Im not looking for a slanging match either.

I have just been pondering the fact that Western soceity seems to have topped out and standards of living are now declining despite all the promise and potential that was supposed to come from the BB generation.

Glen - I think you have mentioned some very apt points

Well I just am going to blow up unless I say something.
I am 55, which isn't much above my kids, my wife and I had 3 before I was 25. When I finished my apprenceship my wife and myself went north to earn some money to buy a house for cash. Well the house we had to rent in the 80's was non air conditioned(ceiling fans in the bedrooms) asbestos and tin roofs, in Exmouth. We went without to save enough to buy a house for cash.
The house that we could afford had to be cut in half and jinkered to a block, then put back together.
Then I had to re- plaster and build a bathroom replaster the walls and renew the ceilings. Initially we had only a handbasin so you had to have a shower in a baby bath and then tip it down the toilet.
After I had finished fixing up that house, as well as bringing up 4 kids, we sold and bought a 4 x 2 that required a ton of work to finish it off, which I did.
Now I just love to sit back and watch my kids in 4 x2's that are 270sq/m (I have never had a house that big) telling me how tough it is.
The problem is you guys never went to school with sugar on bread, because that was all your parennts could afford. You have never seen a hard time because the baby boomers indulged you kids.
Well I will give you the tip PRAWN_86 the baby boomers are to blame for making a bunch off limp D!!!!!!!!!!!!cks like yourself. Is their any wonder you are folding like a pack of cards.
I am going to be self funded because you guys can't even look after youselves let alone look after me. JEEZ get a life. ACTUALLY THE GUVNMINT WANT US TO KEEP WORKING BECAUSE THEY CAN.T AFFORD TO LOSE US, WE AT LEAST GET ON WITH IT PRINCESS.






























i

 

[sptrawler]

Apologise for the spelling, just infuriated

 

[ghotib]

<ahem> The Pill and the Women's Movement. You bet they changed the world.

Of course the whole generational label thing is silly marketing self-promotion. The pill was not invented or marketed by baby boomers, and the so-called second wave of feminism began in the fifties. But still, they changed the world.

For the better.

Ghoti (still on a high from watching Paper Giants and remembering Cleo)

 

[derty]

Well I just am going to blow up unless I say something.
I am 55, which isn't much above my kids, my wife and I had 3 before I was 25. When I finished my apprenceship my wife and myself went north to earn some money to buy a house for cash. Well the house we had to rent in the 80's was non air conditioned(ceiling fans in the bedrooms) asbestos and tin roofs, in Exmouth. We went without to save enough to buy a house for cash.
The house that we could afford had to be cut in half and jinkered to a block, then put back together.
Then I had to re- plaster and build a bathroom replaster the walls and renew the ceilings. Initially we had only a handbasin so you had to have a shower in a baby bath and then tip it down the toilet.
After I had finished fixing up that house, as well as bringing up 4 kids, we sold and bought a 4 x 2 that required a ton of work to finish it off, which I did.
Now I just love to sit back and watch my kids in 4 x2's that are 270sq/m (I have never had a house that big) telling me how tough it is.
The problem is you guys never went to school with sugar on bread, because that was all your parennts could afford. You have never seen a hard time because the baby boomers indulged you kids.
Well I will give you the tip PRAWN_86 the baby boomers are to blame for making a bunch off limp D!!!!!!!!!!!!cks like yourself. Is their any wonder you are folding like a pack of cards.
I am going to be self funded because you guys can't even look after youselves let alone look after me. JEEZ get a life. ACTUALLY THE GUVNMINT WANT US TO KEEP WORKING BECAUSE THEY CAN.T AFFORD TO LOSE US, WE AT LEAST GET ON WITH IT PRINCESS.

You were lucky! We used to live in a rusty tin can in the middle of the road. One hour after sunset we would clean the road with our tongues, eat a handful of cold gravel and work 20 hours at the mill with no pay! When we got home Dad would beat us and put us to bed with no dinner. But you tell that to the kids today and they simply don’t believe you.

 

[Sdajii]

The problem is you guys never went to school with sugar on bread, because that was all your parennts could afford. You have never seen a hard time because the baby boomers indulged you kids.
Well I will give you the tip PRAWN_86 the baby boomers are to blame for making a bunch off limp D!!!!!!!!!!!!cks like yourself. Is their any wonder you are folding like a pack of cards.

After translating from Rant to English you actually have a pretty good point. Generation Y was spoiled, they are very soft, they are very arrogant, they have a misplaced feeling of entitlement. Growing up without enough food in the household to get by, going to school without shoes because your parents just couldn't afford them, having to help the family survive rather than putting all your time into your latest XBox or PS3 or whatever the kids are playing now might be fun but it doesn't provide kids with a lot of the lessons every generation before them got. Having everything handed to them without having to work for it surely is going to set them up for trouble, and when generation Y is running the show in 20-40 years I think we're going to be screwed pretty hard. Baby boomers will look pretty good in comparison!

 

[sinner]

I don't know, why do you think old people love to bring it up?

Clearly because it resonates with their perception of what is going on (right or wrong!), clearly not because they actually have read Plato.

*Sir O looks at Prawn; nods towards Sinner, looks above at the quote that teenagers know everything; gives Prawn the eye again; looks at the qualities of good Jedi Knight; shakes his head sadly at Sinner, and then watches to see if Sinner exhibits good self-control*

Come off it dude.

Sinner, Socrates didn't write himself, so his observations are generally second or third hand and tend to be attributed to other people...like his student Plato who made the comments that Socrates said that in his Republic Book 4.

Errr, right. Ok Sir O, just wondering now if you've even read any of The Republic, let alone Book 4

If that quote is not to your liking...how about this one...

Yeah ok, I suggest we discuss this one face to face so you can't google answers and spit them back verbatim

Point is old farts trying to pass on their wisdom and being ignored by younger generations isn't exactly new.

Cheers

Sir O

I find the irony of this statement coming from you extremely amusing. Maybe you could take a leaf from the book of old farts like Hesiod and Plato, youngn.

 

[Glen48]

The credit card has lot to be blamed for it meant easy credit instead of going to see the bank manager hat in hand with your bank book, once you got easy credit you needed extra money to cover your indulge so your wife had to work.
In USA were the foreclosure business is booming people are realising a 42" plasma is only worth some thing if you have an income and a stable job once the crunch comes it is a handicap because they are off to live in their car or trailer park and realise the only thing you need are:
food, fire, water shelter, clothing. medical and gun.

Some thing a lot soon will realise but can't obtain.
We were "lucky " the card came along because our Parents or our children would have done the same thing, any other nation would have we had the taken up this option id it was there, looks at china luxury good's sales are through the roof because they now have what we had years ago and they can see what easy credit has done to us yet want to follow us.
Keeping up with the Jones's and trying to buy happiness will NOT work as we can now see.