All Creatures Great and Small

[Chris45]

Professor of Neuroeconomics Gregory Berns reveals dogs are people too.

http://www.news.com.au/technology/s...s-are-people-too/story-fnjwkt0b-1226734174107

Professor Berns said the findings showed that we need to stop thinking of dogs as property and begin thinking of them as humans.

"Dogs, and probably many other animals (especially our closest primate relatives), seem to have emotions just like us. And this means we must reconsider their treatment as property," he wrote.

Dogs should be granted "personhood" in order to be afforded additional protection against exploitation, the researcher said. And they should be considered wards of the state if they are not treated properly by their owners.

"Perhaps someway we may see a case arguing for a dog's rights based on brain-imaging findings," he wrote.

The penalty for abusing a dog should be the same as the penalty for abusing a young child imo.

 

[Chris45]

A man who reassembled parts of five $100 bills eaten by his golden retriever has been reimbursed by the US Treasury for the "mutt-ilated'' currency.

Occasionally, "money laundering" is a necessity.

http://helenair.com/news/local/us-t...cle_717856e4-2b2a-11e3-9029-0019bb2963f4.html

 

[CanOz]

The penalty for abusing a dog should be the same as the penalty for abusing a young child imo.

totally agree, Domesticated animals are definitely emotional. If people don't know this then likely they're not very observant either....

 

[Julia]

Dog and elephant - best of mates.

http://www.wimp.com/elephantdog/

So gorgeous. Thanks, bunyip.

Professor of Neuroeconomics Gregory Berns reveals dogs are people too.

http://www.news.com.au/technology/s...s-are-people-too/story-fnjwkt0b-1226734174107

Professor Berns said the findings showed that we need to stop thinking of dogs as property and begin thinking of them as humans.

I understand what he means, but we probably shouldn't think of dogs as humans. They are not. They are pack animals and need not equal status but a defined leader and set boundaries. Any group of dogs in the wild will quickly select the dominant dog as leader and this then allows for order and understanding in the pack.
In the domestic situation we need to replicate this situation for the best environment for the dog.

You can love a dog absolutely but still give it the structure its life needs.

The penalty for abusing a dog should be the same as the penalty for abusing a young child imo.

Agree. It's only inadequate human beings that feel any need to abuse any animal.
It won't happen however.

 

[Chris45]

but we probably shouldn't think of dogs as humans. They are not ... You can love a dog absolutely but still give it the structure its life needs.

Agree, and thinking of them as humans is going a bit far I thought. But, as with humans, there is wide variation in dogs' intellectual abilities and there is a growing consensus that some dogs are as smart as 3yo children.

I remember hearing a report a while ago about a man, living alone and possibly in a hot climate, suffering a stroke and lying paralyzed on the floor and his dog kept him alive by getting a piece of clothing, soaking it in the toilet bowl (the only source of water it could access ... let's not dwell too long on the hygiene aspects) and laying the wet cloth on his mouth so he could suck the moisture from it. The dog stayed with him and repeated this behavior, along with copious barking, until help arrived. I wish I had saved the full details of that story because the logic steps involved in that behaviour are quite incredible for a dog and probably beyond that of most 3yr olds.

Then of course there is the famous Border Collie "Chaser". http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2013-07/i-met-worlds-smartest-dog
(If that page doesn't render properly in your browser, I can paste the text here if anyone's interested.)

A friend of mine had a dog (sadly now deceased) who apparently picked up on what a wallet was, and one day when Tony was hunting for it and asked his wife if she knew where he had left it, the dog sniffed it out and brought it to him. Amazing!!!

They are pack animals ... Any group of dogs in the wild will quickly select the dominant dog as leader and this then allows for order and understanding in the pack.

Reminds me of our criminal teenage/bikie/mafia gangs, as well as some native tribes! Humans aren't much different.

and need not equal status but a defined leader and set boundaries

As do children ... something that is sadly lacking in our society these days!

It's only inadequate human beings that feel any need to abuse any animal.

Add to that the disgusting behaviour of hunting and killing animals for pleasure. I don't have a problem with eating animals but ALL animals should be treated with the appropriate respect, especially the ones we eat. The top predators, eg lions, go for the quickest kill possible and it sickens me to the core when I see helpless animals being tortured to death. Recent footage of killer whales toying with seals by tossing them around like rag dolls is disturbing, as is cats toying with injured birds etc. ... probably why I'm not keen on cats (or killer whales) as pets.

 

[Julia]

Agree, and thinking of them as humans is going a bit far I thought. But, as with humans, there is wide variation in dogs' intellectual abilities and there is a growing consensus that some dogs are as smart as 3yo children.

Much smarter in many cases.

I remember hearing a report a while ago about a man, living alone and possibly in a hot climate, suffering a stroke and lying paralyzed on the floor and his dog kept him alive by getting a piece of clothing, soaking it in the toilet bowl (the only source of water it could access ... let's not dwell too long on the hygiene aspects) and laying the wet cloth on his mouth so he could suck the moisture from it.

Yes, lots of stories like this. Goes to not just the dog's intelligence and ability to reason, but the bond between owner and dog. Many years ago I left my then Shepherd, still a very young dog, with a friend she knew well, this friend having just moved to a very different part of the city, a location Shara had never been to, and about 15kms as the crow flies or 20km via busy highways from my home. My friend let her out to do the toilet thing late that first night, and in a flash she had taken off. Calling and checking the immediate neighbourhood was fruitless. Eventually some time later he drove to my house and there was the dog, sitting patiently on the doorstep. How she knew how to find her way I've no idea.

Then of course there is the famous Border Collie "Chaser".

Thanks for that, Chris. I didn't read to the end (one word to a line became irritating after a while) but that's a first class description of the character of a Border Collie, especially the fact that they are probably the most self contained dog, and they just do their thing, almost never interfere with other dogs.

Many really smart dogs never reach their potential because the owners are too lazy to train them.
Working breeds especially need constant mental and physical challenge to keep them content .
Neglect is a form of cruelty: to get a working breed and shut it in the backyard with no stimulation and minimal exercise is a recipe for trouble.

 

[Chris45]

Thanks Julia. That's an impressive story about Shara! I'm sure I couldn't do that.

I'll post the text of that article here anyway, it's a worthwhile read imo.

http://www.popsci.com.au/science/i-met-the-world-s-smartest-dog
I Met The World's Smartest Dog
Chaser isn't just learning objects by name: she's beginning to understand the basic structure of human language.
By Dan Nosowitz Posted 08.26.2013 at 1:29 pm 9 Comments

"Chaser, this is Dan. Chaser! This is Dan," said Deb Pilley, a classical musician who goes by the name Pilley Bianchi professionally and signs her emails as "Pill." Pill is the daughter of John Pilley, a former professor of psychology, who owns Chaser, an average-sized border collie mostly the color of cookies-and-cream ice cream, but with a black patch just to the left of her left eye. Standing in the entryway of Pill's apartment, Chaser looked up at me with round amber eyes. "Hi there," I said, and stuck my hand out for Chaser to smell. She did, briefly, then glanced at Pill, then turned around and ran upstairs to Pill's apartment. The introduction was not dissimilar from a lot of introductions I've had at parties, except this time, I was meeting a dog.

Upstairs, in a spacious Williamsburg, Brooklyn apartment outfitted with mostly reclaimed and vintage furniture, were Chaser, John Pilley and his wife Sally. (Chaser usually lives with John and Sally in South Carolina.) For a couple of hours, I'd talk with John about Chaser, about border collies, animal intelligence, training, syntax, language, and how that all came together. But first was Chaser.

Border collies are the only dogs I like. They seem more self-reliant than other breeds, equally demanding of human attention but less demanding of human affection. They very rarely bark. They don't jump on strangers. They don't slobber. They are work dogs, not lap dogs. Border collies are herders, bred hundreds of years ago to work with sheep around the Anglo-Scottish border. They're highly energetic, but it's focused; they are, unlike many dogs, workaholics. In the absence of herding tasks, many, including Chaser, decide that their "job" is to play fetch. They're not lackadaisical about fetch, getting the ball when they feel like it and giving it back at their leisure: they are impatient and demand the ball be thrown. This isn't playtime. It's work, and its in their genes. They'll do it for hours, every day, and if they're not allowed to "work" enough, they get bored, and then they get destructive. Throughout the recording of my interview with John, you can hear the bouncing of Chaser's favorite ball, because the interview took place during her workday.

Pill has a magnet on her fridge that says "my border collie is smarter than your honor student." It's not quite true--Dr. Stanley Coren, author of The Intelligence of Dogs, estimates that a very bright dog like Chaser has the intelligence of about a two-and-a-half-year-old child. But I wanted to see just how smart she was.

Throughout the interview, Pill gave Chaser what I considered to be some pretty intricate directions. It was never "sit" or "stop," but things like "relax" or "go to the living room," which Chaser actually obeyed. These weren't to impress me; this is the way John and Sally and Pill talk to Chaser. But I wanted to see some tricks.

I got a private demonstration with Chaser in Pill's apartment, which seemed far too put-together for a rambunctious dog like Chaser to be running through. I was given a plush donut-shaped toy, the name of which I was told is "Fuzzy." My first task: hide Fuzzy and have Chaser find it.

"Find" is a difficult test for an animal, because it is entirely based on the spoken word. It requires that the object to be found not actually be in sight, or else how could it be lost enough to be found? "Fetch" allows the dog to see the object as it's thrown, but not "find." Border collies aren't natural hunting dogs like hounds, and all dogs have pretty short attention spans, so the task of finding an object seemed tricky to me.

I hid Fuzzy under a tall piece of wooden furniture, tucked way in the corner. There was only a few inches of space underneath there; Fuzzy wasn't really in sight at all. It was too good of a hiding place. Chaser understood the task, but got frustrated quickly, almost like a toddler. She couldn't find it. I repeated, at John's urging, "Find Fuzzy, Chaser! Find Fuzzy!" in an excited tone. After a minute or two of Chaser scouring the apartment for Fuzzy, John told me to play the hot and cold game.

"Seriously? She understands 'hot' and 'cold'?" I said. "Oh, yes," said John. As she got closer to Fuzzy, I said "hot, Chaser! You're getting hot!" She got more excited at this and began more energetically searching around that area. Just in case, she turned around briefly. "Cold, Chaser!" I said. She quickly turned back around, and within a few seconds had triumphantly located Fuzzy. She clawed him out from my unfairly difficult hiding place and looked up at me, eyes round, tail wagging, ears extended straight upward. "Good girl!" I said, before wondering how old a human child has to be before being able to accomplish that task.

Border collies are handsome, mid-sized dogs, so they're popular for adoption, but are often abandoned or returned to shelters because owners can't cope with their needs. If they can't play fetch, or whatever they've decided is "work," they'll chew holes in walls, ruin furniture, and display signs of neurosis.

All of the border collies I've known have played fetch in this way, but I have never met one quite like Chaser. Her favorite toy and fetch object is a bouncy blue ball, which is named "Blue." She is more dexterous than any dog I've ever seen; lots of dogs are too excited by the attention and the game to hand back the fetch object tactfully, instead wanting to play tug-of-war with it or just losing track of the game. Chaser would sit a couple of feet from me during the interview and very gently and precisely roll the ball at me with her nose. No games, no nonsense: here's the ball back. Throw it again, please.

That need to work is key to understanding how Chaser has been able to learn more human language than any other non-primate--and, in fact, more than almost any primate. Chaser knows upwards of 1,200 words. Not just nouns, but also verbs and modifiers like adjectives and prepositions. John Pilley trained Chaser in an almost evolutionary way, looking at the specific needs and behaviors of the border collie breed and adjusting the teaching method to best suit it. That's how, says Pilley, Chaser was able not just to learn so much human language, but to do it largely without food as a reward.

Pilley did his undergraduate work at Abilene Christian College and initially focused on religion; he holds a Bachelor's of Divinity from there. "While I was in the ministry I earned a degree in counseling, and then went back for my Ph.D in psychology," he says. A lifetime dog owner, he drifted into classical and operant conditioning--"Pavlov, Skinner, those guys," he says--and eventually into the realm of animal cognition.

After watching border collies do the work for which they were bred--herding sheep--he noticed that the dogs were able to identify individual sheep by name. The farmers were able to tell their border collies to circle and guide specific sheep without visually referencing them at all. If it works for sheep, thought Pilley, why not for everyday objects? Most dog training is behavioral: "sit" and "lay down" and other commands that tell a dog to perform an action. To teach Chaser the names of objects, rather than commands, Pilley first tried a technique called "match to sample." It requires two of a certain object. Pilley would place, say, a frisbee and a piece of rope on the ground. Then he'd hold up another, similar frisbee, and say "Chaser: fetch frisbee." Chaser would recognize the visual similarity between the two objects, and begin to make the connection between the word and the object. Correction: Match-to-sample was first tried on the dog that Pilley owned before Chaser, a border collie named Yasha.

I distinctly got the sense that she was thinking, and not just reacting.
That's how most dogs (and other animals) are taught to identify objects. "It was too complicated," says Pilley. "For most organisms, match-to-sample takes hundreds of trials." His solution was to teach behaviors--verbs, essentially--first, and then make sure that the words Chaser was asked to learn actually had value to Chaser. "We know that herding is the primary instinct [for this breed], but there are many roles. Sometimes they have to find the prey, herd the prey, attack the prey, or kill. So anything that reinforces any of those behaviors is innately reinforcing." Pilley adapted his reinforcements to suit what the border collie breed is bred to do. According to Pilley, Chaser can't learn just anything, but the "find" command, which is much more complex than, say, "sit," is a behavior that's bred into Chaser. The act of finding something, in Pilley's words, has value to Chaser. So no food rewards are necessary; Chaser is fulfilled by the task itself.

Each of the thousand or so objects Chaser knows has an individual name. These are usually nonsense words, like "Fuzzy" or "Bamboozel" (sic) or "Flipflopper." But to Chaser, they might as well be the names of sheep.

This could be unusual to border collies. Ranking canine intelligence is a sticky business; Dr. Coren, for his book, ranked the dogs on their "working and obedience intelligence," testing how quickly each breed could learn a command and how consistently each could demonstrate that knowledge. The border collie ranked highest, and the Afghan hound the lowest, but Coren is quick to note that intelligence is not any one thing, and that his ranking only applies to, basically, ability to respond to commands. The beagle, for example, ranks seventh from the bottom--a pretty dumb breed, according to the list. Yet these types of commands don't play to the beagle's strength; a member of the hound family, the beagle was bred as a hunting dog, trained to perform one task. Beagles are single-minded and determined, when tracking down a scent, but that was all they ever had to do--it was never necessary to understand and distinguish between multiple verbal commands. A border collie's job, herding, is complex: move this sheep from this place to this place, keep a herd in a certain area, separate one sheep from the herd, divide the sheep into multiple groups, bring individual sheep to the herder. "Intelligence" doesn't mean much, really; all way can say for sure is that border collies test extremely highly on a certain kind of obedience test.

Chaser has also been proven to retain the names of objects after learning them, even if she hasn't seen them in years. The idea of naming individual objects and teaching a dog to identify them isn't that new; Pilley and Chaser have certainly taken it to an extreme, but that's not what gets Pilley's psychology-sense tingling the most. What really excites him is the idea of teaching Chaser other elements of language: how words interact, how one word can modify another, and how words can signify more than one thing. Chaser is the first known dog to understand the concept of categories in human speech. If you tell her to "fetch ball," and have set aside a ball, even if she's never seen that specific ball before she'll understand that the word "ball," for her, refers to something round and bouncy. And fetch it.

Branching off from that is Chaser's ability to make inferences. Say you set out three objects for her: one is a Fuzzy, one is a Bamboozel, and one is a New Balance sneaker. Chaser knows the first two objects, knows them by name, but has never seen that sneaker before. But tell her to "fetch New Balance," and she'll walk over to the three objects, puzzled, and analyze them for a second. She'll walk among them, look at them carefully, and then gently grab the sneaker and bring it back to you -- because she has figured out that she has to fetch something and this weird object is the only thing that could possibly match up with that weird sound you told her to fetch.

This is bonkers.

* * *

I have never met an animal quite like Chaser before, and I have met lots of animals. There is an intensity in Chaser's eyes that's similar to but brighter and stronger than other border collies; throughout my time with her, I distinctly got the sense that she was thinking, and not just reacting. When Pill told Chaser to "meet" me, she wasn't being cute; Chaser looked at me, did her version of a handshake, noted that I was a human with whom she may interact, and then left.

Chaser seemed to almost be vibrating internally; even when, after being instructed to "relax," she lay down and put her head on her paws, she still seemed ready to jump up and recite Chaucer, if that's what was asked. She is friendly, and likes to meet new people, which not all border collies do, but also has that distinct autonomous trait. She doesn't need warm, fuzzy attention from me; she needs work. When I told her to find Fuzzy, she appreciated that I was giving her a fun task, a new puzzle to figure out and then feel good about completing.

I don't usually say goodbye to animals; they don't know what it means and I feel kind of silly talking to animals as if they're humans. I said goodbye to Chaser, though. I'm pretty sure she understood.

 

[burglar]

... I distinctly got the sense that she was thinking, and not just reacting ...

Hi Chris45,

A wonderful read, so glad you made the effort!

I have quoted the piece which resonates with me and my son's Kelpie bitch!
(Ohh!!? Am I allowed to say that aloud )

She is sometimes disobedient in a rebellious manner.
It's as if to say, "I understand what you're asking, but I need to decide if I want to!"

 

[Chris45]

A wonderful read, so glad you made the effort! I have quoted the piece which resonates with me and my son's Kelpie bitch! (Ohh!!? Am I allowed to say that aloud )

Pleasure Burglar. I know what you mean (and I think as long as you don't use a certain adjective in front of it, it should be OK).

My neighbours have a little Maltese Shih Tzu, a very handsome little devil when washed and trimmed, and I have minded him on a couple of occasions when they have gone away for weekends. He is a strong willed fellow and knows what he wants and will not be pushed around ... although he is mellowing as he gets older.

CanOz, sorry if my earlier comment about cats was insensitive. Your story about the stray cat was very touching and I warmly commend you for your compassion. It reminded me of this video that I saw recently:
https://youtube.googleapis.com/v/ZqaNiv91ceE
Great story!!!

 

[Julia]

My neighbours have a little Maltese Shih Tzu, a very handsome little devil when washed and trimmed, and I have minded him on a couple of occasions when they have gone away for weekends. He is a strong willed fellow and knows what he wants and will not be pushed around

I'm not setting out to be controversial, but this is the very stuff that makes so many dogs unpleasant parts of society.

So many dogs like this are fussed over, given treats all the time, allowed to sleep on the Leader's bed etc, then in public, because they've not been taught their place in the pack, go yapping up into the faces of other dogs.
Particularly with unknown big dogs, this is a huge risk, and even in well trained big dogs, it puts a strain on the larger dog and its owner who expects the large dog to stay at heel and ignore the ball of fluff yapping in its face.

Usually the indulgent owner will smile lovingly and say something like "oh, he thinks he's a Rottweiler" or "oh, he's used to big dogs, so don't worry".

So with all due respect to people who choose to own little yappy dogs, please train them to come instantly on being called, and do not allow them to go up and make a complete nuisance of themselves to other dogs.
Ref. the earlier description of the character of the Border Collie, one breed that never does this, just gets on with its business, and is never a nuisance to any person or other dog.

 

[Chris45]

I'm not setting out to be controversial, but this is the very stuff that makes so many dogs unpleasant parts of society.

Julia, I don't quite understand why you interpreted my comment like that. I'm not a dog expert, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but my belief is that a domesticated dog needs four basic things in life:
(1) continuous access to clean drinking water,
(2) a regular daily feed of quality dog food,
(3) a daily 30 min. walk,
(4) a little bit of daily TLC.

"Pat", as he's called is certainly not a "fussed over" dog. My neighbours allow him limited access inside their house, but I don't in mine. When my neighbours are both at work, he usually spends his lonely boring days behind a tall concrete wall, and I understand he gets fed only once a day and only occasional walks. He sleeps in an outside kennel, or on bare concrete if it's hot, and as far as I'm aware not in anyone's bed, and certainly not in mine.

When I mind him, I give him a small amount of dried food "breakfast" in the late morning and a few minutes of TLC (stroking his head and brushing his coat).

A few hours later, we go for an afternoon walk down to the park. I keep him off the footpath and nature strip and walk him briskly on the road so that he doesn't stop and "scent mark" every letter box, light pole, etc in the street. When outside, I keep him on his extendable lead ... always!

At the park, I head straight to the rough unkempt area amongst the trees, well away from the manicured public area, where he can have a good sniff around and do his "business" amongst the fallen branches and leaf litter and other little piles of "doggy doo" ... and I confess I'm slack and don't clean up after him. In the street, I walk him, but in the park he walks me ... I think that's fair.

The first time I walked him to the park, I made the mistake of taking him through a nice grassy area. He started to squat and I immediately tried to take him across to the rough area but he dug his heels in and stubbornly refused to move so I had to lift him and carry him. Neither of us was very happy with that little episode but I think he got the message.

When we get back, I warm a serving of "My Dog" in the microwave and feed him and then spend 5-10 minutes relaxing with him on an outside couch. I think he's a bit starved of TLC at home and if I stop stroking his head for an instant he immediately nuzzles his head under my hand and demands more.

He sleeps on an old rug on a folding chair on my balcony where he can see me and I can keep an eye on him.

Now if that's "fussing", I plead guilty and would be curious to know what I'm doing wrong.

However, I think I know the sort of "pampered pooch" you referred to ... and I totally agree with your sentiments ... but thankfully Pat is not one of them, well ... not when he's with me anyway, unless I've got it all horribly wrong.

My family had a dog when I was a kid, but sadly we did get it horribly wrong and she was not well cared for, and I feel remorse for the way she was treated. She had some health issues which were not satisfactorily addressed and my father's idea of exercising her was to run a bit of fencing wire along the backyard fence and link her chain to it so she could run back and forth along the wire all day.

 

[Julia]

Julia, I don't quite understand why you interpreted my comment like that.

Hello Chris,
What I was responding to was this:

He is a strong willed fellow and knows what he wants and will not be pushed around

This comment indicates a dog that hasn't been trained to know his place in the pack.

I'm not a dog expert, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but my belief is that a domesticated dog needs four basic things in life:
(1) continuous access to clean drinking water,
(2) a regular daily feed of quality dog food,
(3) a daily 30 min. walk,
(4) a little bit of daily TLC.

Yes, they are all foundations to dog ownership but don't go nearly all the way to a contented dog that's a polite member of society.

(I should probably say at this stage that, in addition to owning and training my own German Shepherds all my adult life, I have put in many years as an instructor at various dog training clubs.) I've made mistakes with my own dogs and found that every single dog, even in the same breed, requires different methods of training. Some dogs have an inherently soft character so will be easily trained and malleable to what you want them to do. Others are - as you seem to suggest above - strong willed and dominant which makes for an uneasy relationship with their owner.

As I alluded to earlier, dogs are pack animals and - left in the wild - will quickly self select a leader, always the dominant dog. If we take on the responsibility of having them as part of our family, it's up to us to provide them with not only the essentials you've listed above, but just as importantly, the structure and boundaries they need. This means from the beginning making it clear that the owner is the pack leader.

It's just like having a child in many ways. You don't just allow the child free will to do as it likes. You provide it with rules and boundaries, acceptable ways of behaving.

What many people don't get is just how necessary this is to the dog. What it needs is consistency and a set of rules it can understand.

A few basics: you can love the dog absolutely and show this all the time when appropriate. But you do not let the dog dictate what happens. It is below you, the leader, in the pecking order. There are multiple small ways to demonstrate this to the dog.

* when exiting a doorway, the dog should sit and wait for you to go through before you then invite the dog to follow. No allowing the dog to push through first which is what will happen naturally with most dogs.

* inside the house dogs tend to lie across doorways. Most people will step around them, reinforcing in the dog's mind that they have succeeded in dominating you. Instead, make it clear to the dog that it needs to move out of your way. When it does this, praise it strongly in a high tone of voice. (You don't speak Dog and the dog does not speak English: all it understands is your tone of voice, so:

*when the dog does something you do not want it to do, you issue a very loud "NO!!!" and immediately give it an alternative action as a command. When the dog does this, you raise your voice to a ridiculously affected high tone and offer much praise.

*be absolutely consistent. Do not let the dog have his way (he will always challenge you every now and again) some days and then on other days come down on him like a ton of bricks for the same action.
Dogs live in the moment, are immensely willing to please you, but need to be clear in their own minds about what the rules are.

*do not ever let the dog sleep on your bed or on the furniture. It should have its own clearly defined space, inside or outside, preferably both. To let it into your bed or sofa is suggesting to the dog that it has equal rights with you. That just confuses the dog.

"Pat", as he's called is certainly not a "fussed over" dog. My neighbours allow him limited access inside their house, but I don't in mine. When my neighbours are both at work, he usually spends his lonely boring days behind a tall concrete wall, and I understand he gets fed only once a day and only occasional walks.

That sounds quite dreadful. Dogs need companionship, almost above all. No wonder the poor creature attempts to be dominant when removed from that environment.

When I mind him, I give him a small amount of dried food "breakfast" in the late morning and a few minutes of TLC (stroking his head and brushing his coat).

Terrific, Chris. Grooming is another bonding activity and really important to the dog.

A few hours later, we go for an afternoon walk down to the park. I keep him off the footpath and nature strip and walk him briskly on the road so that he doesn't stop and "scent mark" every letter box, light pole, etc in the street. When outside, I keep him on his extendable lead ... always!

Really sensible of you. Owners (or minders) who allow the dog to stop and mark territory or sniff every lamp post are completely reinforcing in the dog's mind that they, the dog, are in charge.
We teach a rule that when a dog is on the lead, there's no sniffing or marking. When in a leash free area, and only when the dog is properly trained to immediately come on command, then they can sniff and mark to their heart's content. Again, it's about the leader making the rules.

The first time I walked him to the park, I made the mistake of taking him through a nice grassy area. He started to squat and I immediately tried to take him across to the rough area but he dug his heels in and stubbornly refused to move so I had to lift him and carry him. Neither of us was very happy with that little episode but I think he got the message.

This is genuinely difficult. This is probably not so much a question of wills but biological necessity.

When we get back, I warm a serving of "My Dog" in the microwave and feed him and then spend 5-10 minutes relaxing with him on an outside couch. I think he's a bit starved of TLC at home and if I stop stroking his head for an instant he immediately nuzzles his head under my hand and demands more.

He sleeps on an old rug on a folding chair on my balcony where he can see me and I can keep an eye on him.

Now if that's "fussing", I plead guilty and would be curious to know what I'm doing wrong.

Sounds to me as though you're doing a fantastic job and making up to him for much of what he's missing out with his neglectful owners, Chris. It's just a shame that he's probably typical of many pet dogs obtained as appealing puppies but with minimal thought as to the reality of the responsibilities of dog ownership.
Good on you for being prepared to do what you do.
I hope the above comments go some way to explaining something few people even want to be bothered thinking about.

However, I think I know the sort of "pampered pooch" you referred to ... and I totally agree with your sentiments ... but thankfully Pat is not one of them, well ... not when he's with me anyway, unless I've got it all horribly wrong.

You haven't got it wrong at all.

My family had a dog when I was a kid, but sadly we did get it horribly wrong and she was not well cared for, and I feel remorse for the way she was treated. She had some health issues which were not satisfactorily addressed and my father's idea of exercising her was to run a bit of fencing wire along the backyard fence and link her chain to it so she could run back and forth along the wire all day.

Nothing I can say here. Sadly, such a situation is not uncommon.
Dogs love the thought of going for a walk as much as the walk itself. Pick up the lead and see their faces light up. You only need take the dog round the block, especially if accompanied by "Let's go for a walk " in a high, excited voice, to make them happy. They're then, even after just five minutes, happy to settle home again.

Dogs give us so much love and loyalty. If we take one into our family, we owe it the pack structure, consistency, and rules it craves, along with the love.

All areas will have dog obedience training centres. They're wonderful places for owners to learn how to manage their dogs, and for the dogs to learn how to socialise appropriately with other dogs. Advanced obedience work challenges the dog further, along with agility training, and they really love it.

 

[Chris45]

Julia, thanks for your interesting and comprehensive reply.

I think I may have misled you a bit with my comment. I don't know if "Pat" has had any obedience training, but the first time I took him for a walk we had a couple of "battles of wills" that had to be gently but firmly resolved, so I suspect not.

He has improved significantly since then but still has a bit of "spirit", which I quite like, but he doesn't always come when called ... understandable when he gets out after being locked up all day and is keen to sniff and mark his immediate territory ... and, while not being an annoying little dog like the ones you previously described, he probably needs a bit more training.

However, I see some dogs being walked "at heel" in the street and they look so downtrodden I can't help but wonder if their training hasn't gone a bit too far.

I had to smile at your description of doorway behaviour. In human society, usually the last one through the door is the most powerful, which is probably the basis of the "ladies before gentlemen" protocol. Witness this classic door game between Clinton, Barak and Arafat:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGueY0ebon8
I wonder if dogs are aware of this?

To let it into your bed or sofa is suggesting to the dog that it has equal rights with you. That just confuses the dog.

Hmmm ... interesting! What about if you are stroking a small "lap-dog", or even a larger dog, on your couch while watching TV? I imagine some owners would do that for the comfort it brings them, but I think sleeping with dogs is a bit weird.

Dogs need companionship, almost above all. No wonder the poor creature attempts to be dominant when removed from that environment.

Pat barks a bit when my neighbours are away all day, a sort of, "Please let me out of here" kind of bark so, with their permission, I cut a small hole in our fence (usually boarded over) and am planning to rig up a couple of simple gates at the sides of my house and suggest to them that I open the hole and give Pat the opportunity to come over when he gets lonely because he seems to be happy to snooze on my balcony. I don't want to take him over but his barking does disturb me.

 

[Gringotts Bank]

I really like watching Cesar Milan work his magic with dogs. Probably something on Youtube somewhere. Used to be a TV series.

 

[Julia]

Julia, thanks for your interesting and comprehensive reply.

You're welcome. I probably offered more than you needed or wanted - caring for dogs and training them is probably my greatest passion.

However, I see some dogs being walked "at heel" in the street and they look so downtrodden I can't help but wonder if their training hasn't gone a bit too far.

A properly trained dog will walk at heel when told to, without a leash, happily trotting by your side, sitting when you stop without any command. It simply becomes instinctive to them. Training them to walk calmly at heel allows you always to issue a command should something untoward happen.

Do you prefer seeing an owner being dragged on the end of the lead by the dog that is pulling hard in front of them, where they have no control other than their physical strength to keep holding onto the end of the lead?
I'll never forget a woman with a large dog on a lead, said dog deciding to have a go at mine, actually being dragged flat out on her face across a road as she held on to the lead in the hope of avoiding a confrontation.
Even when using a check chain, few people understand how to use them properly and instead let the dog pull ahead with the chain constantly tight around its neck. This can injure the dog and teaches it nothing.
Check chains are used with a reasonably long lead, allowed to extend enough to become momentarily slack, and then sharply jerked back. I think there are better ways, eg a Halti, while teaching the dog.
Even an ordinary collar, if the dog constantly strains at the lead, will bruise and hurt the dog's throat. You want a slack lead and a loose chain round the neck.

My dogs have all been much physically stronger than I am so if I were dependent on holding onto them with a lead I'd have no chance if they decided, e.g. to rush up to a person or another dog.
I doubt if you're walking with little Pat in the park you'd be pleased to have an adult Shepherd, Rottweiler et al come rushing toward you?

So the dog learns by tone of voice and praise when it gets it right. Lucy is so tuned in to me I don't usually have to say anything for her to pick up what I want her to do, but often when we're walking I just whisper softly to her, usually praise, to reinforce the bond and the good behaviour.

I had to smile at your description of doorway behaviour. In human society, usually the last one through the door is the most powerful, which is probably the basis of the "ladies before gentlemen" protocol. Witness this classic door game between Clinton, Barak and Arafat:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGueY0ebon8
I wonder if dogs are aware of this?

Oh my goodness, I'll not be offering Lucy any such notions!

Hmmm ... interesting! What about if you are stroking a small "lap-dog", or even a larger dog, on your couch while watching TV?

I'd be less than truthful if I didn't admit to occasionally having done this myself when my puppies were small but regardless of the size of the dog, it's not recommended and I think I explained why. Probably OK with a submissive natured dog but with one that is naturally dominant, you're asking for trouble and confusing the dog.

Pat barks a bit when my neighbours are away all day, a sort of, "Please let me out of here" kind of bark so, with their permission, I cut a small hole in our fence (usually boarded over) and am planning to rig up a couple of simple gates at the sides of my house and suggest to them that I open the hole and give Pat the opportunity to come over when he gets lonely because he seems to be happy to snooze on my balcony. I don't want to take him over but his barking does disturb me.

That sounds like a kind and mutually helpful suggestion. Part of training a dog is teaching it not to bark when you go out.

I really like watching Cesar Milan work his magic with dogs. Probably something on Youtube somewhere. Used to be a TV series.

Yes, he's terrific. His essential trait is his confidence that he is the one in charge. That's 60% or more of training. He's firm and continually shows positive expectations of the dogs. As soon as a dog figures out you don't know what you're doing, you're pretty much sunk.

 

[Chris45]

Do you prefer seeing an owner being dragged on the end of the lead by the dog that is pulling hard in front of them, where they have no control other than their physical strength to keep holding onto the end of the lead?

Certainly not and that incident with the woman must have been quite worrying for you! Fortunately that sort of thing is rare in my area but when I do see a big dog approaching like that I get a bit nervous and if a Rottweiler etc. ever attacked Pat I'm not sure what I'd do. Little yappy dogs are a nuisance but those big aggressive dogs are a major worry!

Thankfully most dogs I see here are quite well behaved and their owners, carrying their obligatory plastic bags, even go to the trouble of deviating off the footpath onto the grass when passing. It's great to see!

As a kid I was told that the way to get a dog to heel was to hit its snout with a rolled up newspaper whenever it tried to walk out in front. That technique probably came from some antique book of dog training and I think I tried it once with our poor little Wire Haired Terrier, "Vikki", and it didn't feel right so I ditched that idea.

I don't know if he's had any obedience training recently but the last time I took Pat for a walk he trotted along happily just in front at my speed, so the lead was slack and he wasn't gasping for air with his check-chain collar, and when I wanted to change direction a slight pull on the lead and he responded immediately so I was happy with that. Maybe not as well trained as Lucy, but good enough for me considering he's not my dog.

My father's old school technique to toilet train a puppy was to rub its nose in it and then smack it. All stick and no carrot for the poor confused little creature ... (shudder) ... thankfully we have the internet now so those terrible techniques have hopefully died out. Have you trained Lucy to use an in-ground toilet-like "dog loo"? I see you can also get "potty patches" for dogs, good but not quite as convenient. Another neighbour was telling me, that as soon as her dog starts to squat, she immediately spreads a plastic bag under it to catch the deposit so she doesn't have to scrape it up afterwards. Sounds like a good idea but she'd have to be quick and I'd like to see her in action one day. Cleaning up after dogs is a major turn-off from dog ownership imo.

I read that cats can be trained to squat on a human toilet ... not sure about flushing afterwards though.

 

[Chris45]

From news.com.au:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y83FbFKi7zg

THEY say dogs are man's best friend, and they must be right because this is the cutest example of dog lovin' ever.

This Labradoodle called Tom doesn't like travelling in cars. So much so, he can't get through one unless he holds his owner Adam's hand throughout.

Maybe our doggie friend Tom has security issues sitting in the front seat of a moving vehicle without a seatbelt. Who wouldn't? If Adam slams on the breaks Tom could go straight through the windshield.

Or maybe it's the fact that Adam is holding the camera phone with one hand and Tom's paw with his other hands, which leaves zero hands on the wheel for safe driving.

Whatever Tom's reasons, we think this Labradoodle is a pretty awesome travel companion, as long as Tom stops filming and starts driving.

 

[Julia]

Certainly not and that incident with the woman must have been quite worrying for you! Fortunately that sort of thing is rare in my area but when I do see a big dog approaching like that I get a bit nervous and if a Rottweiler etc. ever attacked Pat I'm not sure what I'd do. Little yappy dogs are a nuisance but those big aggressive dogs are a major worry!

Quite. So you can see the necessity of training them. The consequences of unmoderated dog behaviour can be awful. Some years ago a huge mastiff cross thing decided to attack my then dog. It came tearing out of an unfenced property. I was in between it and my dog and was upended on concrete. Multiple fractures and other injuries and unable to walk properly again for a year. So obviously it's something I feel strongly about.

Thankfully most dogs I see here are quite well behaved and their owners, carrying their obligatory plastic bags, even go to the trouble of deviating off the footpath onto the grass when passing. It's great to see!

Yes, and such politeness applies with the majority of dog owners. Even in an offleash area if I see another dog coming toward us, I always put Lucy on the lead to ensure the approaching person doesn't have any reason to feel fearful and also to suggest they do the same. Nine times out of ten, they will also put their dog on the lead and no confrontation occurs. If that doesn't happen, the best you can do is shout loudly at the approaching aggressor "NO!! GO BACK!!" This works most of the time. Meantime your own dog should be sitting at heel as far out of the way as possible.

As a kid I was told that the way to get a dog to heel was to hit its snout with a rolled up newspaper whenever it tried to walk out in front. That technique probably came from some antique book of dog training and I think I tried it once with our poor little Wire Haired Terrier, "Vikki", and it didn't feel right so I ditched that idea.

And you were right to do so. There is no need to hit a dog. Simple repetitive starting with the dog at heel, then just stopping every time it starts to pull ahead quickly gets the message across that it's very boring stopping all the time. Using a Halti (a device made out of soft fabric in the fashion of a horse bridle allows you to control the puppy's head, preventing him from pulling ahead) is invaluable in the early stages of training a young dog.

I don't know if he's had any obedience training recently but the last time I took Pat for a walk he trotted along happily just in front at my speed, so the lead was slack and he wasn't gasping for air with his check-chain collar, and when I wanted to change direction a slight pull on the lead and he responded immediately so I was happy with that. Maybe not as well trained as Lucy, but good enough for me considering he's not my dog.

That sounds fine, Chris. As long as you feel you have control and the dog is enjoying himself, that's all that matters.

My father's old school technique to toilet train a puppy was to rub its nose in it and then smack it. All stick and no carrot for the poor confused little creature ... (shudder) ...

Oh god, hopefully this has now been completely discredited. So cruel and teaches the poor dog nothing at all.

Have you trained Lucy to use an in-ground toilet-like "dog loo"?

Everywhere I have lived, there has been a specific unobtrusive area set aside for dog toilet, covered in small pebbles which are easily hosed off to keep fresh.
When you bring a new puppy home, it's taken every hour out to 'the patch' and instructed with whatever term you choose to use it as a toilet. If the puppy obliges, then it gets heaps of praise and is quickly returned inside to reinforce that the reason for going out was to use the patch. Often you will take it out several times on end and it's clearly not going to oblige you, in which case just pick the puppy up and take it back inside without comment. It only takes a couple of weeks of religious adherence to this method for the puppy to understand that it needs to go to the door when it needs to pee, and that it's unacceptable to go anywhere else.
There will inevitably be incidents of the puppy spontaneously going on your beautiful green lawn, leaving a yellow dead patch. When you see this about to happen, grab the puppy and take him to his patch, issuing a loud NO at the original intention. Then heaps of praise when he goes in the right place.

I see you can also get "potty patches" for dogs, good but not quite as convenient. Another neighbour was telling me, that as soon as her dog starts to squat, she immediately spreads a plastic bag under it to catch the deposit so she doesn't have to scrape it up afterwards. Sounds like a good idea but she'd have to be quick and I'd like to see her in action one day. Cleaning up after dogs is a major turn-off from dog ownership imo.

That sounds pretty impractical. You'd essentially have to be eternally hovering over the dog, plastic bag in hand.
It's also somewhat of an affront to the dog's dignity. It should be left alone to do its thing. Hardly a problem to insert your hand in a plastic bag, scoop up the pooh, invert the bag and tie it up.

From news.com.au:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y83FbFKi7zg

THEY say dogs are man's best friend, and they must be right because this is the cutest example of dog lovin' ever.

This Labradoodle called Tom doesn't like travelling in cars. So much so, he can't get through one unless he holds his owner Adam's hand throughout.

Maybe our doggie friend Tom has security issues sitting in the front seat of a moving vehicle without a seatbelt. Who wouldn't? If Adam slams on the breaks Tom could go straight through the windshield.

Or maybe it's the fact that Adam is holding the camera phone with one hand and Tom's paw with his other hands, which leaves zero hands on the wheel for safe driving.

Whatever Tom's reasons, we think this Labradoodle is a pretty awesome travel companion, as long as Tom stops filming and starts driving.

Hate to be a spoilsport but this is yet another example of an improperly looked after dog. No dog should be unrestrained in the front of a car. And the constant pawing of the driver is an attention seeking attempt to assert dominance.
It's a distraction for the driver. So easy to confuse what seems cute with irresponsibility.

The only reason I have a station wagon is so that my dog can be firmly contained in the tailgate, with cargo barrier between her and passenger/driver seating. Dogs like the security of being in a defined space.
When I park to go shopping or whatever, I just leave her untethered in the tail section with the tailgate up.
She will stay there for however long it takes for me to return.

 

[Chris45]

Julia, thanks again for your excellent reply and helpful tips.

Grief! Sounds like you had a horrific experience with that "mastiff cross thing"! I had a "near death" experience myself a few years ago ... an ugly crazed pit bull attacked me from an unfenced rental property. Fortunately I was wearing long loose slacks at the time and all it got was a mouthful of cloth so I was very lucky. I subsequently complained to the council about it and I don't know what they did but I never saw it again. So yes, I certainly understand the necessity of training them and it should be compulsory for all big dog owners to undergo some sort of education and evaluation re dog training, maybe even have to hold a licence. The number of people seriously injured and killed each year by vicious dogs is a disgrace and the incompetent owners of these animals should be held seriously to account, and I don't understand why our councils and governments are so reluctant to act.

If that doesn't happen, the best you can do is shout loudly at the approaching aggressor "NO!! GO BACK!!" This works most of the time.

That's good to know. I will remember that, thanks.

Re my neighbour and her plastic bag technique, I think she said it's only when she's out walking her dog that she does it, but she did say that she has to be constantly alert and quick to act. I don't know how offended her dog is by it.

Re the YouTube clip, I was wondering what you'd say to that. I thought is was wrong on many levels and very dangerous for the dog, the driver, and everyone around them. The dog seems to have a problem that needs addressing and at the very least he should use a seat belt harness or secured carrier basket or something to restrain and protect it ... or maybe even a slightly modified hatchback, but your station wagon sounds like the best solution of all, similar to how the police transport their dogs I suppose.

 

[Tink]

Thats wonderful Chris, that you look after your neighbours dog, and good on you Julia for sharing your great advice on dogs. Never enough information out there.
I used to enjoy watching Cesar Millan too.