Ageing population

[sptrawler]

I give a **** too, what have I said that makes you think I don’t?

I want labour and capital to be deployed efficiently, because that is the best way to maximise the productivity of Australia and make sure we have loads of goods and services floating around the economy for us all to enjoy.

The point I am trying to get across is that it’s not just manufacturing that creates value.

For example the USA produces zero TV’s, yet they produce huge amounts of content for TV, if you had to plan the USA economy would you want to take capital out of Hollywood and put it into making TV’s, that would be a terrible Idea.

The point that everyone else is trying to get across, that you aren't hearing, is that digging and shipping isn't fckn sustainable.

We aren't fckn growing minerals, we are just djgging them and China is value adding.

When it's gone, it's gone, then you come up with well something else will grow at the bottom of the garden.
Those of us who have grown up through hard times, know it doesn't work like that.

The Government has to work with the advantages they have, as I recently fckn had to explain to you about the North West Shelf and the Karatha to Bunbury pipeline, they have to get back to that mantra IMO.

We obviously wont see eye to eye on this, so best we just move on.

 

[divs4ever]

I used that as an example of something you guys are considering as “value adding”, you can swap it for steel mill, battery factory or anything else you like.

well i can tell you the current situation is only breeding more criminals

the other property annoyed the police by being raided again , now the tenth time in just over a year .. well that was last Monday . Friday it got hit AGAIN , and then late Friday afternoon the Forensic squad turned on the vehicle lights and disturbed ANOTHER crew illegally entering the property ( complete with vehicle trailers )

and the joy of it is .. Jim Chalmers is the local member there ( and the frequently ram-raided strip malls i shop at regularly in that near Brisbane area )

this this is Jim's economy as it goes locally

personally i am swinging towards the idea of forced prison labor to improve the economy

and hysterically the 'helpful police suggested' video surveillance ( ignoring the fact three sets of video surveillance gear has already been stolen from there .. and not counting the regularly vandalized/broken into electricity meter box to turn off all the power and isolate the solar )

my latest suggestion of just turning the property into a prison farm ( Hotel California style ) went straight overhead as well

 

[divs4ever]

The point that everyone else is trying to get across, that you aren't hearing, is that digging and shipping isn't fckn sustainable.

We aren't fckn growing minerals, we are just djgging them and China is value adding.

When it's gone, it's gone, then you come up with well something else will grow at the bottom of the garden.
Those of us who have grown up through hard times, know it doesn't work like that.

The Government has to work with the advantages they have, as I recently fckn had to explain to you about the North West Shelf and the Karatha to Bunbury pipeline, they have to get back to that mantra IMO.

We obviously wont see eye to eye on this, so best we just move on.

don't worry next we will have Bill Gates buying all the trees , cutting them down , burying them to claim carbon credits , stuff like that is the 'new sustainable '

 

[sptrawler]

I used that as an example of something you guys are considering as “value adding”, you can swap it for steel mill, battery factory or anything else you like.

That post, really sounds like AI, which is interesting, when you take into account the passive aggressive but open ended responses you give.Lol
Why use t.v, when battery was the obvious one?

 

[Dona Ferentes]

Interesting, when you were just recently posting up about the impost the aged were putting on the broader economy

please explain

 

[divs4ever]

That post, really sounds like AI, which is interesting, when you take into account the passive aggressive but open ended responses you give.Lol
Why use t.v, when battery was the obvious one?

indeed despite the adventures of RFX ( i hold ) and AVL ( i don't hold )

you have WES ( i hold ) at least partly interested in the area ( with lithium assets ) and the willingness to put a team into manufacture/production ( i assume they will buy a failed junior player , and rebuild from there )

we have some scientists/researchers already dabbling in the field AND some batteries are not easy to transport long distances ( say from overseas ) , now i think lithium batteries have their limitations BUT Australia has a wide range of commodities already being extracted ( no ten year wait for final approval to mine )

we could easily make batteries for local use and maybe even for export

we COULD do this if we wanted to ... but let's just sell minerals overseas

but we do have an abundance of several minerals , including uranium , ( for a reliable energy source ) surely we can cost-effectively add some value to some of our raw minerals

 

[Value Hunter]

Value Collector keeps talking about services being value adding industries but the reality is far more nuanced than that and he keeps ignoring what me and all the other guys are saying about how the economy is becoming increasingly bloated with paper pushers and low value services.

Sure if you are talking about hosting a Taylor swift concert, a Wimbledon tennis match or the tourism industry those clearly add a lot of value. But how many administrative public servants, and corporate head office employees (HR, middle management, etc) do we really need? How many marginal coffee shops and small restaurants are there eeking out a miserly profit which is basically equal to an office workers salary while employing illegally low paid in cash Asians and backpackers? The local coffee shop full of Asian student visas working there as a cash second job while the owner has his house mortgaged on the business and works 60 hour weeks to make $100,000 profit per year how much value is that really adding to society?

If you have a plumbing business that is a genuinely value adding and essential service which generates strong profits, but how many self employed dog walkers and baby sitters do we really need? And these types of people generally are not making that much.

Even something like Uber eats is only viable in Australia because we have flooded the country with excess cheap labour (all those international students desperate for any job). If they had to pay proper wages hardly anybody would get food delivery and that industry would basically shut down or restaurants would have their own drivers if they are busy enough like in the old days and the other restaurants you would have to pick up the food yourself.

I am not saying we have to go towards being a prominent manufacturing economy like Japan or Germany but we at least need to focus on proper services like software, engineering services, tourism, medical tourism etc which actually generate substantial value as opposed to more marginal coffee shops, more dog walkers, more babysitters, more Tarrot card readers, more administrative public servants, etc.

 

[Bellcose]

Depends on how you view it. The Aged Care Reforms, which were recently introduced, will require those who have greater amount of funds to contribute more although that is only one aspects of the reforms.

Loading...

www.health.gov.au

Omitted to mention (my bad, sorry) part of the reforms is an increase in funding and range of home care packages. Being brutal, many would prefer to die at home (familiar surroundings, etc) and it's less expensive overall than residential aged care (don't have to expand as much the number of beds sort of thing.)

 

[divs4ever]

I am not saying we have to go towards being a prominent manufacturing economy like Japan or Germany

why not ?

we have vacant land , a fair amount of natural resources , a few smart people

baby steps for sure , but let's actually take some ( baby steps ) and see where we go ( we have the things Germany and Japan both lacked , maybe we can overcome our deficiencies on the way )

 

[Dona Ferentes]

please explain

TV presenter Douglas faces the backlash of a sexist joke made at a wedding, as his co-host Madeline accidentally amplifies the situation. But was it an accident?

- an ABC program tonight.

 

[Value Collector]

No you didn't, you put an example of what we couldn't possibly compete in, why do you take everyone else to be an idiot?

That’s my whole point, I don’t think we should bother wasting time putting labour and capital into industries we can’t compete in, and should stick to ones we have natural advantages in.

What did you think my point was?

 

[Value Collector]

The point that everyone else is trying to get across, that you aren't hearing, is that digging and shipping isn't fckn sustainable.

We aren't fckn growing minerals, we are just djgging them and China is value adding.

When it's gone, it's gone, then you come up with well something else will grow at the bottom of the garden.
Those of us who have grown up through hard times, know it doesn't work like that.

The Government has to work with the advantages they have, as I recently fckn had to explain to you about the North West Shelf and the Karatha to Bunbury pipeline, they have to get back to that mantra IMO.

We obviously wont see eye to eye on this, so best we just move on.

Firstly, what’s with all the swearing, are you drunk ?

As I said before, we have basically endless amounts of resources, probably over 1000 years, and by the time we have to worry about running out we will have a circular economy with 100% recycling rates, but either way, that’s something for future humans to worry about.

 

[Value Collector]

That post, really sounds like AI, which is interesting, when you take into account the passive aggressive but open ended responses you give.Lol
Why use t.v, when battery was the obvious one?

I don’t think battery manufacturing is an obvious one, although I do understand it’s one you are obsessed with.

If you are that passionate about having a battery factory come up with a plan and issue a prospectus and see how you go.

 

[Value Collector]

Value Collector keeps talking about services being value adding industries but the reality is far more nuanced than that and he keeps ignoring what me and all the other guys are saying about how the economy is becoming increasingly bloated with paper pushers and low value services.

Sure if you are talking about hosting a Taylor swift concert, a Wimbledon tennis match or the tourism industry those clearly add a lot of value. But how many administrative public servants, and corporate head office employees (HR, middle management, etc) do we really need? How many marginal coffee shops and small restaurants are there eeking out a miserly profit which is basically equal to an office workers salary while employing illegally low paid in cash Asians and backpackers? The local coffee shop full of Asian student visas working there as a cash second job while the owner has his house mortgaged on the business and works 60 hour weeks to make $100,000 profit per year how much value is that really adding to society?

If you have a plumbing business that is a genuinely value adding and essential service which generates strong profits, but how many self employed dog walkers and baby sitters do we really need? And these types of people generally are not making that much.

Even something like Uber eats is only viable in Australia because we have flooded the country with excess cheap labour (all those international students desperate for any job). If they had to pay proper wages hardly anybody would get food delivery and that industry would basically shut down or restaurants would have their own drivers if they are busy enough like in the old days and the other restaurants you would have to pick up the food yourself.

I am not saying we have to go towards being a prominent manufacturing economy like Japan or Germany but we at least need to focus on proper services like software, engineering services, tourism, medical tourism etc which actually generate substantial value as opposed to more marginal coffee shops, more dog walkers, more babysitters, more Tarrot card readers, more administrative public servants, etc.

The reason I am not really putting to much effort into talking about government bloat is because that isn’t my argument.

I am talking about all the real value I see being created, eg Arnotts Tim tams being baked and sent to London, Bundaberg ginger beer at Walmart in Florida, Australian made soy sauce exports to Japan, plane loads of tourists at the opera house. I really could go on for ever.

Our economy is super strong, some of you guys just can’t see the forest for the trees.

In answer to your question, we need as many dog walkers and uber drivers as the market demands. We don’t have to worry about it, they market will automatically adjust to demand.

 

[Smurf1976]

Our economy is super strong

The way I look at it is really quite straightforward - could someone who's just finishing high school right now realistically achieve the same things I've achieved or that my friends have achieved?

That's not asking for anything drastic, just the basics.

Within my adult lifetime having any full time job, even on minimum wage, was sufficient to buy at least a basic house within the greater urban area. Might not have been the most fancy house and it might not have been a great suburb but any job at least got you 4 walls, a roof and a full size block.

Within my adult lifetime the cheapest rental was just on a third of the dole, meaning the prospect of forced homelessness just didn't exist. There were also no real hoops to jump through to actually rent such a property - contact the landlord, pay the bond, here's the keys.

And so on. I don't doubt things are going very nicely for some, and that includes me personally, but what I'm seeing is a very unequal society and a lot of things that are broken. Housing affordability is one, but then the hospitality and entertainment industry's really struggling too and that affects even those who do have money - you can't go to a show that's been cancelled because others couldn't afford to go and you can't eat a restaurant that's closed because others couldn't afford to eat there. etc.

I don't advocate communist approaches but I do see many things that aren't working all that well for many.

An issue in all of this being that of a different mindset. This isn't a criticism of you or anyone to clarify, we're just having a discussion, but as I see it:

Economics discounts the future, indeed it does so openly and even puts a % figure on it. It also looks at the average of society in determining success or failure.

Scientific and technical people don't outright say it but in practice they discount the present. Everything about what they do is based on the concept of making sacrifices today in order to build a better tomorrow. Such people tend to reject outright socialist approaches but they do seek a relatively equal society through opportunities for work and they seek overall progress through science and its practical application.

There's a very different mindset there, a different objective and focus and I think that explains the different perspectives in this thread.

 

[qldfrog]

Scientific and technical people don't outright say it but in practice they discount the present

Like that, so true

 

[Value Collector]

The way I look at it is really quite straightforward - could someone who's just finishing high school right now realistically achieve the same things I've achieved or that my friends have achieved?

That's not asking for anything drastic, just the basics.

Within my adult lifetime having any full time job, even on minimum wage, was sufficient to buy at least a basic house within the greater urban area. Might not have been the most fancy house and it might not have been a great suburb but any job at least got you 4 walls, a roof and a full size block.

Within my adult lifetime the cheapest rental was just on a third of the dole, meaning the prospect of forced homelessness just didn't exist. There were also no real hoops to jump through to actually rent such a property - contact the landlord, pay the bond, here's the keys.

And so on. I don't doubt things are going very nicely for some, and that includes me personally, but what I'm seeing is a very unequal society and a lot of things that are broken. Housing affordability is one, but then the hospitality and entertainment industry's really struggling too and that affects even those who do have money - you can't go to a show that's been cancelled because others couldn't afford to go and you can't eat a restaurant that's closed because others couldn't afford to eat there. etc.

I don't advocate communist approaches but I do see many things that aren't working all that well for many.

An issue in all of this being that of a different mindset. This isn't a criticism of you or anyone to clarify, we're just having a discussion, but as I see it:

Economics discounts the future, indeed it does so openly and even puts a % figure on it. It also looks at the average of society in determining success or failure.

Scientific and technical people don't outright say it but in practice they discount the present. Everything about what they do is based on the concept of making sacrifices today in order to build a better tomorrow. Such people tend to reject outright socialist approaches but they do seek a relatively equal society through opportunities for work and they seek overall progress through science and its practical application.

There's a very different mindset there, a different objective and focus and I think that explains the different perspectives in this thread.

Yeah, house prices are expensive, but that’s just one aspect of the economy, and can be a sign that the economy is booming.

When you think back to property being cheaper when you were young, there are a lot of factors causing that, some of which are permanent and require people to adjust expectations, others temporary.

For example the population of Sydney has more than doubled since you entered the workforce, so obviously the cost of land is going to rise to a greater percentage of the basic income, also the houses themselves are more complex, eg they require so many specialists now, eg things like a water proofing specialists weren’t a thing in 1970. That’s just one example.

others things like the surge in population might be temporary and housing stock might catch up, but with a growing population the 1/4 acre block is not a thing a low income earner will be able to afford, they will have to adjust expectations.

I agree with a lot of social principles eg progressive taxation, free education, healthcare, taking care of people with disabilities etc etc.

But society shouldn’t ever be totally equal, because people contribute different amounts into the system, the more value to you put into the economy they more you should generate, however as I said you should also share a progressive percentage of this via taxation, which is what we do already.

 

[Value Hunter]

In answer to your question, we need as many dog walkers and uber drivers as the market demands. We don’t have to worry about it, they market will automatically adjust to demand.

My whole point is the fact that there are so many subsistence that would not exist or only exist in minimal numbers in a strong economy with high and growing real wages and low unemployment. If people had well paying jobs readily available they would not bother working as Uber eats delivery drivers. The fact that we keep flooding the economy with migrants and foreign students when unemployment is already sky high is only exacerbating the problem (when you look at Roy Morgan polls, anecdotal evidence or Seek ad numbers, etc instead fake ABS data).

When you go to poor countries often they employ people doing all sorts of things that it would be uneconomical to do in a first world country such as guys filling your petrol tank at the gas station, people who bag groceries at the supermarket while the cashier scans stuff (bag boys), people collecting cash payment to use public toilets, etc. The proflieration of these types of jobs is a sign of weakness in the economy not strength. The fact that in Australia there are sometimes 10 backpackers hanging around in front of Westfield waiting around for there next Uber eats delivery job is a sign of a weak and unproductive economy rather than strong economy.

You say the market will adjust to demand but the market is manipulated by all the excess labour supply from unecessary immigration pushed onto the population by the government. Its something the average person simply does not want.

Shut down the borders to foreign students and backpackers and there will be a lot less Uber drivers and dog walkers and everybody's wages will rise. For example you see the construction industry has strong wages and workign conditions because it is filled with a lot of Aussie men and permanent resident European men, etc. They are happy to commit to having a strong union and going on strike, taking industrial action and putting their jobs at risk to stand up to the corporations. Meanwhile the hospitality and retail industry have been filling their employee ranks with Asians (Indians, Chinese, etc) who don't have the backbone to stand up to management for various reasons. I have worked in a lot of different jobs in different indsutries and I can tell you that any workplace which has a high percentage of Asians is a place that exploits its workers and is an unpleasant place to work. And I would sya the same thing to a slightly lesser degree about workplaces filled with backpackers.

 

[Value Collector]

My whole point is the fact that there are so many subsistence that would not exist or only exist in minimal numbers in a strong economy with high and growing real wages and low unemployment. If people had well paying jobs readily available they would not bother working as Uber eats delivery drivers. The fact that we keep flooding the economy with migrants and foreign students when unemployment is already sky high is only exacerbating the problem (when you look at Roy Morgan polls, anecdotal evidence or Seek ad numbers, etc instead fake ABS data).

When you go to poor countries often they employ people doing all sorts of things that it would be uneconomical to do in a first world country such as guys filling your petrol tank at the gas station, people who bag groceries at the supermarket while the cashier scans stuff (bag boys), people collecting cash payment to use public toilets, etc. The proflieration of these types of jobs is a sign of weakness in the economy not strength. The fact that in Australia there are sometimes 10 backpackers hanging around in front of Westfield waiting around for there next Uber eats delivery job is a sign of a weak and unproductive economy rather than strong economy.

You say the market will adjust to demand but the market is manipulated by all the excess labour supply from unecessary immigration pushed onto the population by the government. Its something the average person simply does not want.

Shut down the borders to foreign students and backpackers and there will be a lot less Uber drivers and dog walkers and everybody's wages will rise. For example you see the construction industry has strong wages and workign conditions because it is filled with a lot of Aussie men and permanent resident European men, etc. They are happy to commit to having a strong union and going on strike, taking industrial action and putting their jobs at risk to stand up to the corporations. Meanwhile the hospitality and retail industry have been filling their employee ranks with Asians (Indians, Chinese, etc) who don't have the backbone to stand up to management for various reasons. I have worked in a lot of different jobs in different indsutries and I can tell you that any workplace which has a high percentage of Asians is a place that exploits its workers and is an unpleasant place to work. And I would sya the same thing to a slightly lesser degree about workplaces filled with backpackers.

Unemployment isn’t sky high.

And who is to say what jobs are needed, you might value a Taylor swift concert and be willing to pay $300 to attend it, some one else might want to spend their $300 on 6 dog walking sessions or uber rides, what’s the difference?

That is the thing you guys miss, the whole point of having an economy is to produce and distribute the goods and services we need and want that improve our lives.

You say a plumber is producing value, but a dog walker isn’t? But what if a dentist enjoys having his dog walked and washed by a professional, because it allows him to do an extra 2 hours of dentistry for $400, and he gets to come how to a washed, calm dog that’s ready to relax on the couch and have some pats, instead of bouncing off the walls.

You say the dog walking isn’t value adding but it is to the dentist other wise he wouldn’t do it, you would say making wine is value adding, but if the dentist bought the wine instead of hiring the dog walker how is that different?

 

[Smurf1976]

As an exercise, I put the following scenario to everyone.

Take any random country and have it export nothing. It'll continue to have service industries, it'll continue to grow some food and so on for local consumption, but all exports cease.

What do you expect to happen to that country economically?

My answer:

On day 1 I expect nothing much to happen apart from some limited loss of employment in exporting industries that'll likely be replaced by employment in services.

Slowly but surely however I expect them to become impoverished. Because they'll still be importing all manner of things, since they can't possibly produce everything themselves, but they're not exporting anything. That being so, they'll have a one way flow of money out of the country.

The longer it continues, the further they'll slide. Everyone has a job, services are happening, but there's a constant drain of wealth out of the country to pay for imports and nothing coming back in. As the currency starts to lose value, interest rates must be raised to keep inflation in check and slow the slide. Everyone feels poorer, but nobody's too sure exactly why given there's plenty of activity, people have jobs and so on.

Can anyone debunk my thinking here?