Africa the cradle or the grave of civilization?

[2020hindsight]

2020hindsight, if you have different views, then so be it.

After all, you are justifying your stance by morally personifying Mugabe as a cartoon caricature and a character in a novel.

juw
you show me one article of merit - with an ounce of credibility in his favour -
and I'll be able to show you ten against.

 

[2020hindsight]

trashy propaganda cartoons ....

ok you are talking about Peter Nicholson.
The man is pretty clever m8 - close to genius imo
Not sure how you'd rank beside him
He did the rubbery figures cartoons for instance...

And his friend Bill Leak is another great cartoonist - both work for the Australian newspaper. Both have won heaps of awards for instance.

I attach two of Bill Leak's contributions to the topic as well :-

Bill Leak is The Australian's daily editorial cartoonist. As one of Australia's leading satirists and most respected portrait painters, Leak divides his time between ridiculing his subjects mercilessly in his cartoons or immortalising them in oils. He has been a finalist in the Archibald Prize on ten occasions and his portraits are included in the collections of the State Library of NSW, Parliament House, Canberra and the National Portrait Gallery, Canberra. He has won eight Walkley Awards, one of which was for Brown Nose Day in 2002, and nineteen Stanley Awards including eight Gold Stanleys for Artist of the Year.

...........

Peter Nicholson makes a new animated political cartoon exclusively for The Australian every few days. The Australian is the first newspaper in the world to have an animated cartoon this close to the news. The animations do for the web what his famous Rubbery Figures puppets did for television, and feature the voices of Paul Jennings.

Nicholson's pocket cartoons appear on page one most days, and his large-scale cartoons are in Media and Inquirer. He has won four Walkley Awards, six Quill Awards, and the National Museum cartoon prize twice. .... His cartoons and sculptures are in the National Portrait Gallery, the National Museum and the National Gallery of Victoria.

PS Here are more of those cartoons (click "next" to cycle through 296 of them anyway)
feel free to find one that contradicts the theme that Mugabe is a menace to his own people.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/opinion/cartoons/

 

[2020hindsight]

It is the effect of western colonial powers. The reason why Mugabe has been in power for decades is because the people know their history.

juw that is complete nonsense if you don't mind me saying so.
The people want history to change - after 28 years of despotism, they've had enough of him...

Here's the Kenyan opinion of the Zimbabwe situation (NTV) - since I suspect you won;t accept something said by a white man ...

opposition supporters have been killed ...

national broadcaster ZBC has dropped all campaign advert and coverage for the Movement of Multiparty Democracy (MMD) ...

Zanu PF has vowed not to relinquish power ....

Raila Odinga (Kenyan PM) has been vocal asking African Nations to speak out the Zimbabwe situation

"Zimbabwe remains an eyesore on the African continent..."
- it is a big embarrassment that a leader can say that he is not willing to hand over power to an opponent..."

similar to the conclusions that the African Union arrived at in April...
elections 27 June re-run....must be free, must be fair...

Kenyan Govt is monitoring and is parrticularly concerned
harrassment of candidates , and the continued arrest and imprisonent of the oppostion does not auger well for the development of democracy in Africa.

But they agree it is unlikely to be free and fair

an increasingly violent crisis..

Kenya turns up the heat on Zimbabwe

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Movement_for_Multiparty_Democracy

Btw, Here's an artucle from todays Times (UK)
http://www.thetimes.co.za/PrintEdition/Insight/Article.aspx?id=788408

Robert Mugabe’s political strategy in Zimbabwe is very clear: to win the presidential runoff on June 27 2008 by any means necessary, and at any cost.

The brutality of the methods and tactics being employed has been extensively documented. Key elements include killings, voter intimidation, residential displacements, the elimination and harassment of polling agents and party campaigners, and the incarceration of political leaders.

In summary you are talking bs.

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

gg, howdy - just incidentally - Why not duck over the border into Zimbabwe and see if the elections are fair or not -

a) ask the people would they personally like to dance on Mugabe's grave
b) what sort of dance would they do ,, etc

c) as Fred Dagg once said, "we don't know how propitious are our circumstances Frederick"

2020 its not safe.

There are places here in SA I wouldn't go near let alone Zim.

We are fortunate to be Australian.

Africa is stuffed I'm afraid.

gg

 

[So_Cynical]

2020hindsight what trashy propaganda cartoons omit is that the problems in Africa are largely not the fault of Africans. It is the effect of western colonial powers. The reason why Mugabe has been in power for decades is because the people know their history. Don't be so quick to jump on the media bandwagon.

The colonials are long gone, the locals are in charge...tribalism and corruption reigns
supreme, even in the more modern democracy's there still a basic level of corruption
that pervades almost every aspect of life and business.

In Ghana u have to pay (extra) just to get the phone connected after waiting 6
months....the locals in positions of power will attempt to extort money from
anyone with money, black or white.

 

[Wysiwyg]

Here's the Kenyan opinion of the Zimbabwe situation (NTV) - since I suspect you won;t accept something said by a white man ...

Dateline SBS on Wednesday night 8.30 has an undercover story from inside Zimbabwe.

As Bob Dylan sung ..... steal a little and they throw you in jail .... steal a lot and they make you king.

 

[2020hindsight]

thanks wys - would be worth watching.. if predictable and depressing

- brave dudes these reporters - and how brave is Morgan Tsvangirai

As for Mugabe, even his closest allies are warning him to "play fair or be square"...

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/06/21/2281775.htm

Mugabe ally calls for end to 'intimidation' tactics
Posted Sat Jun 21, 2008 4:13pm AEST

Zimbabwe President Robert Mugabe's closest African ally, Angolan President Jose Eduardo dos Santos has urged the leader to end all intimidation and political violence in the run-up to next week's presidential election.
....
In another development, a senior figure in the Opposition MDC, Arthur Mutambara, has called on Zimbabwe's neighbours and African organisations to ensure the poll is free and fair.

"It's incumbent upon SADC, South Africa and the AU to bring pressure on Mugabe and make it very clear that if Mugabe wins in a fraudulent election there'll be no support for that regime," he said. ....

It's definitely up to the African countries to supervise this ...
Significant participation by white countries would only be playing into Mugave's hands... "colonisers ,,, yada yada rhubarb rhubarb..."

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

- and how brave is Morgan Tsvangirai


It's definitely up to the African countries to supervise this ...
Significant participation by white countries would only be playing into Mugave's hands... "colonisers ,,, yada yada rhubarb rhubarb..."

I hate to rain on your parade 2020 but the word in SA is that Morgan Tsvangari is only 50% the bastard that Mugabe is.

Jesus he wept.

gg

 

[2020hindsight]

I hate to rain on your parade 2020 but the word in SA is that Morgan Tsvangari is only 50% the bastard that Mugabe is.
Jesus he wept.
gg

at least he's been to jail for justice
I'll call him a friend of mine... till he shows his colours to be otherwise
Have You Been To Jail for Justic - Peter, Paul and Mary

 

[wayneL]

<sarcasm>So when do we invade to restore democracy? </sarcasm>

 

[Sean K]

<sarcasm>So when do we invade to restore democracy? </sarcasm>

LOL No oil.

<no sarcasm>

 

[cordelia]

Re: Africa the cradle or the grave of civilization ??

If it wasnt for the western support of corrupt countries so that our companies can "invest in" (ie, pillage) the country, a big portion of our favourite miner stocks will not exist.

What do you base this statement on may I ask?

1. What specific western support?
2. Which corrupt countries?
3.Which investments?
4.Which favourite mining stocks?

Please elaborate with supporting references...

 

[cordelia]

The colonials are long gone, the locals are in charge...tribalism and corruption reigns
supreme, even in the more modern democracy's there still a basic level of corruption
that pervades almost every aspect of life and business.

In Ghana u have to pay (extra) just to get the phone connected after waiting 6
months....the locals in positions of power will attempt to extort money from
anyone with money, black or white.

Well it seems at least one person on this thread has actually been to Africa and has some valid experience to support thier statements...It is impossible to talk about Africa in general terms....and you can't talk about countries ..its more about tribes....

I have lived on and off in West Africa for 13 years..mostly Ghana.....I know nothing of East Africa but West Africa is traditionally ruled by the dominant Ashanti.....

I have seen many Australians arrive in Ghana and try to be the white do gooders only to find out that they are taken advantage of and then get disgruntled when they are stolen from or have to pay bribes....

Africa is a tough place...stealing and bribery are rife because the people have little to lose and everything to gain...It is part of their culture and if you understand and accept it you get along quite well....

I don't belive that anyone in Australia has endured real poverty the way that many Africans have. Its easy to critise was we refer to as "corruption" from a position of personal comfort....

 

[2020hindsight]

Mandela and Desmond Tutu critical of Mugabe.. "step down man, you've been there for twenty years! " (President since 1987, also Prime Minister 1980 - 87)

Mandela criticises Mugabe

Tutu on Mugabe and Arms Imports

 

[bvbfan]

LOL No oil.

<no sarcasm>

Better tell the Americans they have a heap of platinum and palladium they may need for their hybrid cars of the future, unless they want to be slaves to China and Russia to get it.

Might work....

 

[The Once-ler]

in the future it will be the new china (as far as cheap labor goes)...once
Asia gets to the too expensive to produce there stage, there's only 1 place
left to go (exploit) and that's Africa.

.

Africa won't ever be a new China or Asia. They have no work ethic. A lot of Africa's problem is the men do nothing and make the women do all the labour. Africans are not as clever as Asians either.

 

[Sean K]

Africa won't ever be a new China or Asia. They have no work ethic. A lot of Africa's problem is the men do nothing and make the women do all the labour. Africans are not as clever as Asians either.

I love it when people are politically incorrect!!

But, not sure if the 'no work' thing is correct. They do what they need to, that's all.

Which leads me to this point.

Overpopulation is the problem of the world, even the West. Competition for resources is one on the biggest calamities of the human species.

If we weren't getting into each others personal spaces, and resources were abundant, then we would be living in relative harmony. Well, more harmony. We can't even get on with ourselves let alone share space with others. Even the ones we 'love'. LOL, love. Another human condition designed to get us to procreate and stick together in order to survive but which has caused the overpopulation.

Humans aren't a very well developed animal.

'A cancer of the planet'. (Agent Smith)

We need about 80% (not a scientific conclusion) of the human species wiped out for the planet to survive.

It will find a way.

 

[prawn_86]

We need about 80% (not a scientific conclusion) of the human species wiped out for the planet to survive.

It will find a way.

I was actually watching the National Press Club about 4 years ago, and there was an overseas professor on there, but at the time i didnt take notice of his name unfortunately.

He had done research in this area and stated that for the entire world population to be able to live a middle class western lifestyle (McMansions, 2 cars, going out on weekends etc etc) then the Earth can support about 2 - 3 billion humans.

So according to him at the time we needed a 50 - 60% drop. So your 80% is edging ever closer Kennas

Eugenics I tell you...!

 

[juiceman]

Zimbabwe
What a shame
Spent a lot of time there just after the war.
As for Mugabe:
If you choose not to play by the rules
Solution
One shot, one kill

 

[bassmanpete]

It took centuries to develop the level of civilisation western societies enjoy today. We've tried to teach/impose that level of civilisation on what are basically tribal societies with all their enmities & hatreds still ready to boil over at any time.

In England 500 years ago Lancaster & York fought the Wars of the Roses. Those battles only continue today with bats & ball on the cricket field. In many parts of Africa they still kill each other - and they have modern weapons to do it with.

The Romans brought their, for the time, highly developed civilisation to Britain. Look what happened when they left, and they were there for about 500 years!. Can we expect it to be any different in Africa?