Adolf Hitler got things done

[white_goodman]

From your perspective. From his perspective and those of his followers, he was a great man. Neither would be incorrect

thats the thing its all perspective... its not as black and white as you think...

If Germany had of won the war, would the actions of the US in regards to Japan be seen in the same light? little is talked about in comparison to Hitler, regarding Stalin's purge of the Russians... everything has shades of grey

 

[Mr J]

Had the Axis powers won and the US dropped the bombs, the allies would be seen just as harshly as we view the Axis powers. There were atrocities on all sides, the winners just tend to overlook their own while demonising those of the enemy. I'm sure there would have been good excuses formed to justify the extermination of the jews, just as excuses have been made for allied atrocties (both bombs were completely necessary ).

Sure it'd be a technological step backwards to go back to that, but it might just be that life would be sweeter for it.

Perhaps, perhaps not. You might find yourself in a 21st Century Gulag, assuming you even exist. The fact is that most of us would not exist at all. Are you willing to sacrifice yourselves for something that happened in the past, with no guarantee that it would make the future any better? I doubt it. I'm sure you all like living, so you shouldn't really want to change the past.

 

[jono1887]

Are you suggesting that Hitler is responsible for the nuclear world? If so, I strongly disagree, as that advance may very well have been made anyway, and I would guess it was probable.



You're assuming that they could not have been developed independently of WW2, and that a world war would have not taken place if Hitler had not taken power. I don't think it is a reasonable assumption.

Alot of the advancements in nuclear weaponry were due to Einsteins contributions to the field. He provided this information to the Americans knowing it was the only way to prevent Hitler from obtaining this mass power and ultimately ruling the world. If it wasnt for Hilter, I am sure that Einstein would not have revealed this information so willingly and nuclear technology as we know it would be behind by many many years.

 

[xyzedarteerf]

Some might dispute his methods, but if it were not for him and WW2 would the world be as advanced as it is today?

 

[Mr J]

Jono, we can't make that assumption without risking being completely wrong.

xyzedarteerf, always a classic gif .

 

[Bolle]

Mr J, the question was "if it were not for [Hitler] and WW2 would the world be as advanced as it is today?" - That's what i was answering. There's really no need to get metaphysical and discuss time travel and future/present implications of theoretically changing history, we all know it's not possible. It doesn't help the question being debated if we just focus on whether the question itself has merit. Some questions purposefully subvert reality in order to logically discuss the theoretical in a quasi-realism construct. Sometimes you just have to suspend disbelief for a moment.

The question asks whether the price of war is worth paying for the technology we have today... my answer was 'no'. To answer your question: whether i'd be alive or not isn't something I would have a choice over anyway. I'm not 'killing' myself to think as I do; if the world had turned out differently who's to say it wasn't time for my soul to be on this planet anyway? Maybe i'd look different and have different parents, but there's just as much chance that i'd still be here as there is that i wouldn't.

Having said all that, there is no denying that Hitler had a certain star quality.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3YRWhg4YaA

 

[Mr J]

It doesn't help the question being debated if we just focus on whether the question itself has merit.

The question is one that can't be answered, only speculatively discussed.

There's really no need to get metaphysical and discuss time travel and future/present implications of theoretically changing history, we all know it's not possible.

Why not? Remove Hitler, and who knows how the world would end up as of 2009.

The question asks whether the price of war is worth paying for the technology we have today

I also answered this. I didn't specifically say the technology was worth it, but I am alive, and for me that is reason enough.

if the world had turned out differently who's to say it wasn't time for my soul to be on this planet anyway?

No-one can deny it, but know we're just digging further into uncertainty. It's possible that souls exist and that your soul was destined to form the person you are today. It's also possible that your identity is pure chance, and that you could not have been born at any other time.

As I said before, I can justify any historical action with the fact that I exist, and may not have existed had everything not occurred the way it did.

 

[drsmith]

The broader question here is whether or not rivalry between two dominant powers results in more rapid technological advancement. It does as the two powers will compete against each other to get to the top of the heap. This is basic survival instinct at work.

Annother interesting example was the cold war between the USA and the Soviet Union. Here space was a significant battle ground with huge advancements in space technologies during the 60's and 70's but look in comparison at how it has stagnated since. The US got man on the moon in less than a decade in the 60's but have we got the will to do someting as equally profound in the same time frame (say, man on Mars for example) ?

What would have happened though if the Cold War became hot ?
Then we would have obviously suffered a massive setback in every respect. At the time of WW2 we did not have the ability to totally wreck the joint so the rivalry of war resulted in significant technological advancement all-be it at a huge human cost.

 

[jono1887]

The broader question here is whether or not rivalry between two dominant powers results in more rapid technological advancement. It does as the two powers will compete against each other to get to the top of the heap. This is basic survival instinct at work.

Annother interesting example was the cold war between the USA and the Soviet Union. Here space was a significant battle ground with huge advancements in space technologies during the 60's and 70's but look in comparison at how it has stagnated since. The US got man on the moon in less than a decade in the 60's but have we got the will to do someting as equally profound in the same time frame (say, man on Mars for example) ?

What would have happened though if the Cold War became hot ?
Then we would have obviously suffered a massive setback in every respect. At the time of WW2 we did not have the ability to totally wreck the joint so the rivalry of war resulted in significant technological advancement all-be it at a huge human cost.

It is true that rapid technological advancements occur during times of war or rivalry... but how does getting a man on the moon or mars benefit mankind in any way shape or form? Wouldnt those billions of dollars have been better spent on bioengineering crops to solve the problem of world hunger or finding cures for AIDS??

Too bad war hasnt been able to lead to great leaps in medical advances, perhaps if we shift towards chemical/biological warfare, we would find a cure to cancer or AIDS alot faster??

 

[drsmith]

It is true that rapid technological advancements occur during times of war or rivalry... but how does getting a man on the moon or mars benefit mankind in any way shape or form? Wouldnt those billions of dollars have been better spent on bioengineering crops to solve the problem of world hunger or finding cures for AIDS??

Consider where would we would be today had Christopher Columbus listened to that line of rationale back in 1492.

 

[Mr J]

Yes, the Native Americans may still be alive and the Africans may have experienced less slavery. I'm not being serious though, as if it wasn't Columbus, it would be someone else.

 

[wayneL]

Too bad war hasnt been able to lead to great leaps in medical advances...

FYI

http://www.advocatehealth.com/gsam/services/emergency/fall2008.pdf

 

[Chris45]

Interesting thread!

I'm certainly not a fan of AH but I've always wondered where we'd be now if the Japanese hadn't decided to join in the brawl by whacking the Americans at Pearl Harbour thereby forcing them to enter the fray.

The Yanks seemed to be quite happy just to sit on the sidelines and sell supplies to the Brits while watching them bleed.

Without the Yanks joining in, AH might well have succeeded and the Third Reich would now be the superpower.

Bin Laden's mob wouldn't exist because there'd be no Israel and therefore no middle east conflict and consequently no war on terror.

We'd all be running around in our lederhosen and stuffing ourselves with that delicious sauerkraut and the Internet would all be in German.

 

[knocker]

wow so much attention to this thread.

 

[knocker]

Interesting thread!

I'm certainly not a fan of AH but I've always wondered where we'd be now if the Japanese hadn't decided to join in the brawl by whacking the Americans at Pearl Harbour thereby forcing them to enter the fray.

The Yanks seemed to be quite happy just to sit on the sidelines and sell supplies to the Brits while watching them bleed.

Without the Yanks joining in, AH might well have succeeded and the Third Reich would now be the superpower.

Bin Laden's mob wouldn't exist because there'd be no Israel and therefore no middle east conflict and consequently no war on terror.

We'd all be running around in our lederhosen and stuffing ourselves with that delicious sauerkraut and the Internet would all be in German.

Weren't the Japanese just opportunistic? I doubt AH was geniune about them just like the Italians.

 

[Tink]

Mr J. if Hitler didnt get in power, you wouldnt have known any different, we would have gone down a different path and that would have been it.

Whatever the outcome, we would have been happy with it
The question of whether or not you were alive, was not the issue...

Knowing what we know now, yes, I would have changed history, but its something we cant undo, so we hope that we have all learned something from this event and never let someone like that in again.

 

[Timmy]

We'd all be running around in our lederhosen and stuffing ourselves with that delicious sauerkraut and the Internet would all be in German.

And the GFC would have been much better organised.

 

[nomore4s]

And the GFC would have been much better organised.

LMAO

 

[white_goodman]

Interesting thread!

I'm certainly not a fan of AH but I've always wondered where we'd be now if the Japanese hadn't decided to join in the brawl by whacking the Americans at Pearl Harbour thereby forcing them to enter the fray.

The Yanks seemed to be quite happy just to sit on the sidelines and sell supplies to the Brits while watching them bleed.

Without the Yanks joining in, AH might well have succeeded and the Third Reich would now be the superpower.

Bin Laden's mob wouldn't exist because there'd be no Israel and therefore no middle east conflict and consequently no war on terror.

We'd all be running around in our lederhosen and stuffing ourselves with that delicious sauerkraut and the Internet would all be in German.

the movie Fatherland tried to show what might have happened...

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0109779/

 

[Krusty the Klown]

A bit of stand up from Larry David, a Jewish New Yorker, I always found funny but I don't know why.....

"One thing I admired about Hitler was that he didn't take any sh#t from magicians"............